Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[MX175]

I have a bean without Ts.

I first went with the traditional bean design (first pic), with the T and the threaded caps, but in order to keep the plumbing from sticking out above the overflow, the water level was so low in the overflow it made a lot of noise when water fell over the overflow. Kind of defeated the purpose of a bean. So, I modified my setup to use elbows instead of the T and caps (second pic). The main reason for threaded caps on the bean is to allow for easy servicing. I can just as easily pull the entire stand pipe out of the bulkhead if I need to service it, I didn't cement them in and they still work great; even the siphon.

rrasco, Nice before and after pictures of your bean drain! It's good to see others like yourself going the low profile route and doing it successfully. I get what you are saying about lowering the drain too far down into your weir housing. It's going to be 90 degree elbows for me as well.

With that, I'm just about ready to put in my order for a new custom starphire shallow reef tank by Tom at glasscages.com. I swear, designing and planning a tank is 3/4 the fun!


:beer:

 

[d2mini]

Hi all, I wanted to post the results of the past month's worth of work on my BeanAnimal plumbing, both to give thanks to those who answered questions (and beananimal of course), and to show that the system does actually work when going through a wall! My garage is directly behind my tank so that is where I have located all equipment and needed to have all drains/controls out there since the tank will eventually be surrounded by floor to ceiling custom cabinetry. So I ran the plumbing straight out the back of the tank, through the wall, and THEN into the sanitary tee. Also, I decided to just do all 1" plumbing since I don't need crazy turnover and I could save a few bucks on plumbing. The only 1.5" is the sanitary tees and the return plumbing/pump from the sump to the manifold.

I do have two questions though.
1. Where exactly is the opening of the airline of the durso supposed to be in relation to the three drain elbows in the overflow?
2. I notice that if the main drain's outlet in the sump is below the water line, it will NOT start to drain. Once it starts the siphon and water is flowing I can connect an extension of pipe to get it below the water line in the sump and it will continue to siphon.

Thanks!

 

[RicoJ]

Stupid question but are all the PVC piping all good together in the original plan or are they just held by friction?

 

[autodave]

Hi all, I wanted to post the results of the past month's worth of work on my BeanAnimal plumbing, both to give thanks to those who answered questions (and beananimal of course), and to show that the system does actually work when going through a wall! My garage is directly behind my tank so that is where I have located all equipment and needed to have all drains/controls out there since the tank will eventually be surrounded by floor to ceiling custom cabinetry. So I ran the plumbing straight out the back of the tank, through the wall, and THEN into the sanitary tee. Also, I decided to just do all 1" plumbing since I don't need crazy turnover and I could save a few bucks on plumbing. The only 1.5" is the sanitary tees and the return plumbing/pump from the sump to the manifold.

I do have two questions though.
1. Where exactly is the opening of the airline of the durso supposed to be in relation to the three drain elbows in the overflow?
2. I notice that if the main drain's outlet in the sump is below the water line, it will NOT start to drain. Once it starts the siphon and water is flowing I can connect an extension of pipe to get it below the water line in the sump and it will continue to siphon.

Your airline should be placed at the high water line in your overflow box,so if you have a blockage it will submerge and turn your open channel (durso) into a full siphon. How far is your full shiphon submerged in your sump? Some people were putting the full siphon valve right before it terminates in the sump,to help start the siphon quicker.

 

[d2mini]

Your airline should be placed at the high water line in your overflow box,so if you have a blockage it will submerge and turn your open channel (durso) into a full siphon. How far is your full shiphon submerged in your sump? Some people were putting the full siphon valve right before it terminates in the sump,to help start the siphon quicker.

Thanks! So if the main siphon clogs, which drain line should start to take up the slack first? The drain with the airline or the drain with the upturned elbow? That's where I'm confused.

I have a 90 degree elbow hovering above the water in the sump. I had a length of pvc inserted into this elbow that terminated several inches under the water line. This is when the siphon wouldn't start. And it wasn't flowing ANY water. But as soon as I removed that length of pvc so that there was air space between the water and the elbow, the water started flowing hard.

 

[autodave]

If your siphon clogs,then your open channel (durso with the airline) takes the slack,then your emergency(upturned elbow) is your final drain.
Try to terminate your siphon line about an inch or so in the sump (mine is about 1/2 inch).If you can,do not use the elbow.

 

[d2mini]

ok, great. That's how I have the drains set up. Right now the airline is about equal to the top of the elbow of the open channel.

If you look at the schematic pic above, you can see that I need that last elbow to turn down into the sump. But maybe the extension of pvc was TOO far down into the water. I will have filter socks there anyway, so this will quiet it down, even if it has to be above the water line. Unless there is some other reason it should empty out below the water line.

 

[autodave]

I see which elbow your talking about now. Submerging the full siphon too deep is a common problem for start-up issues,I would start there.

 

[cmantis]

I am trying to get my parts list in order to get everything that I need. I will be using this on 40g breeder tanks. Should I scale it down at all or just build it as it is? Also can I use flexible tubing or spaflex to come off of it? If so what would I need to order for that.

I will probably be moving in a few months so want it to be modular. Also the tanks will be on a rack one above the other into a common sump so I was hoping to use tubing so I could route them easier.

I can find this on the savko site: 3x $4.88 101015 (1.5" TEE PVC DWV) any help?

Thanks.

 

[cmantis]

So after doing more research I am wondering three additional things:

1) How to use flex tubing and connect it to PVC to run down to sump
2) What parts do I need for the return (loc-line). If someone could come up with a parts list that would help sooo much.
3) What kind of cement to use

- Ok one more should I go with the gate valve and add a union below instead of union/ball like in the original plan?

 

[shrimphead]

can't quite get my head around how the whole thing works?

is the siphon drain an actual siphon? and so basically are you trying to ajust the siphon rate to a point where it is draining a little bit less than what is flowing into the overflow box and then the other drain is catching the leftovers, because if you had the siphon draining more than was coming into the overflowbox it would suck all the water out of the overflow box and start sucking air.

what happens if it sucks in air, does it break the siphon, does the siphon restart by inself?
i don't really understand how the siphon gets started in the first place on my old standpipe whenever i put my finger over the hole in the cap that lest the air in/out the drain stops draining and the overflow box starts filling up?

also what about putting a ballvalve onto a normal standpipe? why don't people do that?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Shrimphead...

Yes the idea is to adjust the siphon until the open channel "catches the leftovers".

The siphon starts on its own. If it sucks air, it makes noise and/or starts and stops siphoning. Once the system is adjusted it is stable over a fairly wide range of flow rates. It shouldn't suck air and make noise.

It is a "normal" standpipe with a ball valve

 

[shrimphead]

i was saying would it would suck air if you had the gate valve fully open as would suck all the water up in the overflow then suck air? correct?
but how does it start the siphon when you have your drain pipe in the sump underwater, the air has to be pushed out. also why did you use a T section on the siphon pipe when you capped the top of it? could you just use an elbow?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Shrimp:

It may be best of you spent a bit of time reading the project page at my site and/or the first page of this thread and skimming through the contents of the thread itself. I think it may help answer most of your questions rather directly.

The operation of each standpipe and how they interoperate is explained in fairly specific detail on the first page of this thread (and every 20 pages thereafter) and on my site http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx


In short, the valve is used to control the rate of the siphon and is adjusted so that the standpipe DOES NOT "suck air". If the standpipe "sucks air" it will make a lot of noise or in extreme cases cause the overflow box and other standpipes to oscillate (cycle) in and out of differnet modes of flow. That is, the box will fill and flush, but it will not flood due to the design of the other standpipes. The system is not hard to "adjust" and once "adjusted" it stays "adjusted" over a fairly wide range of flow rates.

The siphon starts like any other siphon starts. The water rises in the overflow box and begins to flow over the wier in the standpipe. If the rate is high enough the air is purged and a siphon forms. The air is purged easily as long as the standpipe termination is just below the water surface.

The Tee on the standpipe allows the cap to be removed and the internals cleaned of biological growth (fan worms, etc) that build up over time. You can use 90 bend if you like. However, do note that on the open channel, the air breather may "slurp" due to the air intake being IN the water stream because it is on the back of a 90, not in the dry part of a tee (out of the water flow).

 

[dwolson2]

I would be interested to understand this better as well....BTW, I did update my design with suggestions....here is my latest...I'll need to play around with the baffle wall heights....

any update? did this work and is it quiet?

 

[BeanAnimal]

That drawing really doesnt make much sense

 

[dwolson2]

the idea was to not have the elbows and make the overflow as small as possible. the three chambers were so the holes could be close to the same level while still filling the siphon first.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I highly doubt, without serious tweeking and modification that the setup will work. Even if it did, most of the surface skimming is lost and the siphon will more than likely draw a vortex and suck air. Nice idea, but the fluid dynamics are not going to play nice

 

[pandimus]

Ok, just outta curiosity.. I had beananimal up and running fine with my old sump. I changed my sump, adjusted my lines to about an inch under the water level. Now im getting surging, and water noise in the lines. It cant be adjusted properly. I have always had the last elbow down into the sump not glues, the salt creep kept friction on it so i can pull it off to change my filter socks. What do you guys think is the likely cause. i did not mess with the lines themselves. Just pulled the bottom one off and cut it a few inches. Its just the siphon line that is important right?

 

[jdcook72]

I highly doubt, without serious tweeking and modification that the setup will work. Even if it did, most of the surface skimming is lost and the siphon will more than likely draw a vortex and suck air. Nice idea, but the fluid dynamics are not going to play nice

BeanAnimal,
That picture was from another poster that I was discussing some ideas with in a different thread (I think, or it may have been this one "“ it's so huge it's hard to remember and it may be in one of these pages somewhere). I had come up with some of my own ideas and posted some pictures in different threads where I was asking some questions about other things. I have built a prototype, done some testing and have been able to establish proof of concept but there are a few things that need a little tweaking still. My schedule has been pretty full so I haven't been able to get into the shop to build the next prototype but here is where I am with the designs.
Here is the design from my last prototype (some pieces are redundant, multiple views)

And this is my latest revision that I still need to build a prototype for

As you suspected, the siphon does draw a vortex but part of that was the amount of flow I was pushing through the box for testing. At a reduced turnover rate everything was working as I'd expected for my design. I'm hoping adding a little more depth, top to bottom, as well as lengthening the box to better scale for the flow rate will provide enough reserve volume in the box to prevent a vortex. My latest revision should also address a personal criticism I had with my initial designs where some of the redundancy of the emergency channel is compromised. The latest design provides discrete access to the emergency channel in the event of a blockage in the plumbing or baffles for the first two channels and allows for easier up scaling of the design to higher flow systems by simply lengthening the first chamber when building.

It is very low profile (only about 1" proud of the back tank wall), provides the benefit of reduced shadow lines and tank presence without requiring the additional time/materials for construction of an external box to house the elbows. I'd appreciate any feedback you could offer.