Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Mark...]

I think his question was with regard to the display flooding...

It is a valid idea, except that limiting the volume available to the return pump means also limiting the volume available to evaporation and/or makes ATO somewhat more complicated. In that spirit, the probability of running the return pump dry is greatly increased, as is sucking in air (via vortex, etc). Carefully planned, the idea is valid. However, the overflow system described in this thread and on my site provides numerous benefits and levels of safety, eliminating the need to engineer a "limited supply" design and the problems associated with it.

Yes, that was the idea. You would have to keep an eye on the sump level. But I would think you could get the intake fairly deep and still be in the safety margin. If you could find a happy shallow level it could work. And on the other end having a sump reserve that would handle a return pump failure with a back-flow valve failure as well. In my mind the system volume controls any problems and leaves equipment out of the loop as much as possible.

Thanks for the reply.

PS: if this idea has any validity, please call it a "shallow Mark"... lol

 

[black acura]

very good info, learned a bunch from the readings

 

[GROSSR]

Re-reading it, I missed the DT.

Bean stated very valid points.

Unless the return pump is so strong and the overflow can't handle the volume from the pump the DT should not overflow. Now that could be the overflow(s) are clogged. What is beautiful with the C2C is there are 3 pipes to the sump. What is the likely hood of all 3 getting clogged...very slim. The only time in 30 years of aquariums I have ever flooded my DT was the returns could not handle the pump I put in the sump, and that was as soon as turned on the pump watched the process, within a few minutes I had removed the pump and found another.

I have flooded the sump, too many times to count.

As long as you are aware of the DANCE going on between the sump and the DT you are good to go.

rich

 

[BeanAnimal]

very good info, learned a bunch from the readings

Your next lesson will be what happens when you pad your way to 50 posts with useless comments....

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, that was the idea. You would have to keep an eye on the sump level. But I would think you could get the intake fairly deep and still be in the safety margin.

Deep or shallow, it does not matter. You are extremely limited in evaporation volume, etc.

While you may wish to "keep an eye" on your sump... I prefer not to, and thus designed a system where the tank would not overflow, regardless of the return pump compartment volume.

And on the other end having a sump reserve that would handle a return pump failure with a back-flow valve failure as well.

In my opinion, if the sump can not handle the full backflow of the system WITHOUT the use of a check valve, it is not properly designed. Check valves have a 100% rate of failure and are not a valid "control" to prevent flooding.

In my mind the system volume controls any problems and leaves equipment out of the loop as much as possible.

As I mentioned, from an engineering standpoint, you are correct. From a real-world use standpoint (design standpoint) there are pros and cons that must be considered. The design of this overflow system negates the need for me to limit my sump return compartment volume and/or fiddle with ATO oddities, backflow prevention, run-dry prevention. etc.

The topic comes up often, to the point that there have been several huge debates devoted to it... not something to rehash here. This thread is devoted to support of a specific overflow, not alternative methods of protecting the display from flooding

 

[batman3n1]

Jerpa, where did you get those metal clamps that are supporting the PVC in the back of your tank?

Thanks

 

[Daimyo68]

I've used this system on my last 2 tanks, and enjoy the silence.

I have seen it more than a few times now, that people are putting the gate valve low on the siphon pipe. Is there an advantage to this?

 

[rhwimmers]

I recently purchased a tank with 3 2" holes drilled in the bottom of an overflow (glass cages tank) - is there diagrams on how the beananimal would work in this setup?

 

[readc]

i have one more question...I was able to fine tune the gate valve on my drain so that there were very limited bubbles (the tiny ones i see must be from the turbulence of the water hitting 4 45 degree bends).

at any rate, when i shut the system off and restart, the main siphon will not engage...I have to open the gate valve up to get the siphon going again and then readjust the gate valve. what does this mean is wrong with the system?

Thanks- Curtis

 

[Jrod4]

I've got a ~57 gallon tank, dimensions are 36 inches long, 18 inches wide, and 21 inches tall. My question is how far below the top should I drill my holes? And should I go with 1 inch bulkheads?

thx

 

[uncleof6]

i have one more question...I was able to fine tune the gate valve on my drain so that there were very limited bubbles (the tiny ones i see must be from the turbulence of the water hitting 4 45 degree bends).

at any rate, when i shut the system off and restart, the main siphon will not engage...I have to open the gate valve up to get the siphon going again and then readjust the gate valve. what does this mean is wrong with the system?

Thanks- Curtis

Again, this comes down to the design, configuration, and assembly of the system.

If there are bubbles in the system, air is getting into the line somewhere. Air in the line, will not allow the siphon to start properly. A siphon line should not produce bubbles, unless it is cavitating (longer drop, sharp restriction, then sudden pressure drop, much like a venturi valve.

Bubbles could be entering at the siphon inlet due to bubbles in the overflow, however, this should be self evident by looking in the overflow, observing if there are bubbles running around in the overflow, or the water level is too low in the overflow, and small amounts of air are being sucked into the inlet. Water level generally should be around the top of the down turned elbows.

Beyond that, again, start up issues are due to design variations from the "model." If you followed the design criteria to the tee, start up is reliable, predictable, and generally takes a few minutes for the siphon to fully kick in. During startup, the dry emergency usually kicks in, however if the open channel is taking significant flow, there is something wrong with the design.

One thing that does not get mentioned often, is the distance from the siphon inlet to the dry emergency inlet. Siphon inlet is a down turned elbow, dry emergency is an upturned elbow. That distance allows the system to start; a shorter distance may be unpredictable.

 

[q8vw]

Hello,

Guys I'm looking to do a vertical BeanAnimal system, but I couldn't find any threaded Tee, or threaded cap in my country.
so instead i will use elbows. *Picture attached*



1- My question is will this setup work?
2- Can i replace the T (open channel - Middle) with two elbows and drill it to add air line? or should I use T with drilled cap?
3- Do the system need maintenance from time to time? (cleaning)

Thanks in advance.

 

[readc]

Again, this comes down to the design, configuration, and assembly of the system.

If there are bubbles in the system, air is getting into the line somewhere. Air in the line, will not allow the siphon to start properly. A siphon line should not produce bubbles, unless it is cavitating (longer drop, sharp restriction, then sudden pressure drop, much like a venturi valve.

Bubbles could be entering at the siphon inlet due to bubbles in the overflow, however, this should be self evident by looking in the overflow, observing if there are bubbles running around in the overflow, or the water level is too low in the overflow, and small amounts of air are being sucked into the inlet. Water level generally should be around the top of the down turned elbows.

Beyond that, again, start up issues are due to design variations from the "model." If you followed the design criteria to the tee, start up is reliable, predictable, and generally takes a few minutes for the siphon to fully kick in. During startup, the dry emergency usually kicks in, however if the open channel is taking significant flow, there is something wrong with the design.

One thing that does not get mentioned often, is the distance from the siphon inlet to the dry emergency inlet. Siphon inlet is a down turned elbow, dry emergency is an upturned elbow. That distance allows the system to start; a shorter distance may be unpredictable.

What could be wrong with the design if the open channel is taking significant flow? My emergency drain has not been utilized once on startup. I wouldn't be on here troubleshooting if I hadn't tried a bunch of different options and read others experiences. The only thing that separates my design from the original is the placement of the drilled holes (bought it that way), but I wouldnt think that their horizontal configuration would really make any difference. I also have thread x thread connections from the overflow to the sanitary T. other than that there is no difference.

I am going to try a different, newer pump and see if that helps as I feel that the flow is very low from the returns. If that doesnt work, not really sure what else to do at this point.

Thanks for your help.:beer:

 

[rhwimmers]

Great pics on the vertical setup, I too am wondering how to best set it up.


JROD - 1" is good, usually determined by your return pump and what size outlet it has. As far as how far from the top, I usually do as close to top as possible with room for the nut to screw all the way on - trim might get in the way of the nut screwing flush with the glass so keep that in mind.

 

[uncleof6]

What could be wrong with the design if the open channel is taking significant flow? My emergency drain has not been utilized once on startup. I wouldn't be on here troubleshooting if I hadn't tried a bunch of different options and read others experiences. The only thing that separates my design from the original is the placement of the drilled holes (bought it that way), but I wouldnt think that their horizontal configuration would really make any difference. I also have thread x thread connections from the overflow to the sanitary T. other than that there is no difference.

I am going to try a different, newer pump and see if that helps as I feel that the flow is very low from the returns. If that doesnt work, not really sure what else to do at this point.

Thanks for your help.:beer:

Open channel inlet too low in the system, relative to the siphon and dry emergency. Open channel air vent hose too low in the overflow, Siphon air locking (for numerous reasons stated recently above.) Faulty adjustment. It is unusual for the dry emergency not to take flow during start-up, perhaps it is too high...

Personally, I would fix the problem, before trying to up the flow rate. You may end up with unexpected results. At least, by a process of elimination, (detailed top to bottom analysis,) eliminate all possibilties other than the bulkhead size/flow rate issue, which is the only one upping the flow rate would possibly help, and that issue is only in the hypothesis stage. It is not reported often enough to justify a theory.

I know it is frustrating, when you stare at a problem for perhaps hours at a time, and do not arrive at a solution—and folks tell you it is a relatively simple problem to solve. It is though: the air isn't purging from the siphon. If you are closing the valve a great deal, try moving the valve down to just before the sump. Just a random idea...

Just so you know, upping the flow rate is not a bad idea, most systems are under-pumped anyway. There is enough redundancy in this system to prevent flooding, if the system is set up properly to begin with. However that part is still a question mark; just be careful. (If I can't touch it and run it, I don't know if it is right or wrong...)

 

[uncleof6]

Great pics on the vertical setup, I too am wondering how to best set it up.


JROD - 1" is good, usually determined by your return pump and what size outlet it has. As far as how far from the top, I usually do as close to top as possible with room for the nut to screw all the way on - trim might get in the way of the nut screwing flush with the glass so keep that in mind.

Holes need to be 1 hole diameter down from the top edge of the glass and and each other. Any less than that, and you jeopardize the integrity of the glass panel. What you usually do, is more than just a little unsafe.

 

[rhwimmers]

Good info uncleof6
How does the beananimal siphon start, seems odd that the elbows are facing down (except the emergency/overflow one) - Ive used utube overflows in the past and know you have to draw the air out manually to start a siphon (or use airlifter pump) - this not the case?
Anyone done a vertical style one? I'm having issues figuring out how to do it in my bottom drilled glass cages tank - the T with 90 and one with 2 90s (siphon) there is not much room for the PVC inside the overflow area - it would be a tight fit and wouldnt glue on or id never get them out (no room to unscrew)..

 

[uncleof6]

Head pressure and ytivarg. U-tubes are a different animal all together, because there is no head pressure, and very little ytivarg advantage.

A siphon can be done straight, but I don't see any point in doing it that way. Corner overflows are a PITA, best I can suggest is tear them out, and start over.

 

[uncleof6]

Well, pad your post count with some more irrelevant posts, and you just might get your wish.

 

[Jrod4]

Holes need to be 1 hole diameter down from the top edge of the glass and and each other. Any less than that, and you jeopardize the integrity of the glass panel. What you usually do, is more than just a little unsafe.

I had a couple other questions. I was planning on making my own overflow box but am unsure if I want to do a c2c or just a regular internal overflow box that can contain all three drain lines from beans setup. The tank will be where people are constantly walking by and the sides of the tank will be plenty visible and I dont know if I want people seeing the overflow box, or more importantly, my siliconing job.
Where does the top of the overflow need to be with respect to the top of the tank glass? I've got a 57 gallon tank (36 inches wide) and I plan on pumping around 1000 gph. I'm thinking if I put it too low the the overall water level will be low permanently and if I put it too high then I risk it overflowing over the top of the tank.

Also, with this design there are no need for teeth on the overflow box correct? Teeth would cause noise and would take away some of its skimming ability.