Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[ReefPharmer]

Hey guys, I have a 30x 30 cube with a 1.5 inch bulkhead overflow centered on the back wall. It was set up as a durso by previous owner and I am not happy w the noise.
I have read quite a bit about bean animal and herbie and I think I understand the concepts.
With that said, I am considering drilling 2 one inch bulkheads inside the overflow side by side on the back wall using street elbows into the bulkheads.
I would reduce the current 1.5 inch pipe to 1 inch in the overflow and below the bulkhead , leaving the bulkhead as the 1.5 inch part in the bottom of the tank and have two more 1 inch bulkheads in the back wall closer to the top. The bottom will be gate valved full syphon with one of the back wall pathways as the trickle and the 2nd as the emergency. This is all assuming things fit correctly

Does that seem reasonable? I know it's not coast to coast , but have to work w what I have, sirs

 

[gernby]

Again, in the kindest way, I am not looking for enhancements. The standpipe design is stable as published and this thread is dedicated to the support of that design. That is, I am not looking for improvements or enhancements as I am happy with the current state of the system. I am not at all opposed to a conversation regarding standpipe design, I would just prefer not to clutter this thread with that discussion. It is already hard enough for folks to follow along and find what they need

As requested, I've created a new thread for my overflow strategy here. I spent the weekend building and testing a prototype over the weekend, and have posted a video of the system in action.

This seems to be one of those rare occurrences where an idea works as well in practice as it does in theory. Full siphon rocks! :dance:

 

[saintsnsinners]

Any photos of in-tank bean systems? Looking to set up a 60 cube and want all plumbing to go through the bottom to the tank. I'll build a false wall that will act as an overflow. It will have 2 - 3/4 returns and a 3/4 cl with 1 intake and 2 returns. So just with all that I am looking at 5 - 3/4 holes in the glass. All 4 returns will come out of the false wall via bulkheads. Would like to add a bean but don't know if that would be too many holes. Tank is 24 wide.

I could do a 1.5" durso without a problem, but I thought I'd try something I've never done before.

Bump

 

[BeanAnimal]

Any photos of in-tank bean systems?

I would imagine they are not to common simply due to the real estate required.

Looking to set up a 60 cube and want all plumbing to go through the bottom to the tank. I'll build a false wall that will act as an overflow. It will have 2 - 3/4 returns and a 3/4 cl with 1 intake and 2 returns. So just with all that I am looking at 5 - 3/4 holes in the glass. All 4 returns will come out of the false wall via bulkheads. Would like to add a bean but don't know if that would be too many holes. Tank is 24 wide.

That is a total of 8 holes you are going to need to drill... While possible if you can get the spacing correct, there is certainly increased risk.


A few thoughts:

Why not take the returns over the top into an Oceans Motions and then back down into your false wall? You would eliminate the extra holes in the bottom of the tank. In the same fashion you could use a single 1.5" bulkhead for the return and branch it to the false wall (straight or through an oceans motions).

While I love closed loops, a false wall is a perfect place to hide powerheads that are going to be more efficient than a closed loop in this case. That would eliminate 2 more holes (closed loop suction and discharge).

Lastly, if the false wall is sealed (creating a dry box) then it must be as strong and secure as the back wall of the tank. On the other hand if it is leaky(can fill up from the bottom) it can be thin, but you will lose some surface skimming and make things hard to keep tuned.

Are you sure you want a false back?

 

[patchesj]

Any thoughts on what the maximum horizontal distance could be from the tank to the sump? I am looking at locating the sump in a utility room "around the corner" from the display tank.

 

[saintsnsinners]

Wow, lots of great info. Thanks.

I would imagine they are not to common simply due to the real estate required.



That is a total of 8 holes you are going to need to drill... While possible if you can get the spacing correct, there is certainly increased risk.


A few thoughts:

Why not take the returns over the top into an Oceans Motions and then back down into your false wall? You would eliminate the extra holes in the bottom of the tank. In the same fashion you could use a single 1.5" bulkhead for the return and branch it to the false wall (straight or through an oceans motions).

While I love closed loops, a false wall is a perfect place to hide powerheads that are going to be more efficient than a closed loop in this case. That would eliminate 2 more holes (closed loop suction and discharge).

Lastly, if the false wall is sealed (creating a dry box) then it must be as strong and secure as the back wall of the tank. On the other hand if it is leaky(can fill up from the bottom) it can be thin, but you will lose some surface skimming and make things hard to keep tuned.

Are you sure you want a false back?

 

[ReefPharmer]

Hey guys, I have a 30x 30 cube with a 1.5 inch bulkhead overflow centered on the back wall. It was set up as a durso by previous owner and I am not happy w the noise.
I have read quite a bit about bean animal and herbie and I think I understand the concepts.
With that said, I am considering drilling 2 one inch bulkheads inside the overflow side by side on the back wall using street elbows into the bulkheads.
I would reduce the current 1.5 inch pipe to 1 inch in the overflow and below the bulkhead , leaving the bulkhead as the 1.5 inch part in the bottom of the tank and have two more 1 inch bulkheads in the back wall closer to the top. The bottom will be gate valved full syphon with one of the back wall pathways as the trickle and the 2nd as the emergency. This is all assuming things fit correctly

Does that seem reasonable? I know it's not coast to coast , but have to work w what I have, sirs

sorry for bumping my own q, but the drill bit is on the way so I wanna be sure about what I am doing

 

[BeanAnimal]

You plan should work, but don't be afraid to experiment. The 1.5" may need to be turned up and terminated like a stockman (to prevent it being open and noisy) inside the overflow if it is too deep.

Photos before you drill may be a good idea.

 

[SGT_York]

sounds like a good implementation. ensure you drill at the correct heights for the open channel and dry emergency.

 

[gernby]

Any thoughts on what the maximum horizontal distance could be from the tank to the sump? I am looking at locating the sump in a utility room "around the corner" from the display tank.

If you are going horizontal, try this route.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22012929#post22012929

 

[gernby]

sorry for bumping my own q, but the drill bit is on the way so I wanna be sure about what I am doing

Seems like it would be better to use the existing 1.5" as the emergency or open channel, since it would probably be easier to tune the full siphon on the 1" drain. Of course, that's assuming the 1" drain will handle the flow you're targeting.

 

[ReefPharmer]

Seems like it would be better to use the existing 1.5" as the emergency or open channel, since it would probably be easier to tune the full siphon on the 1" drain. Of course, that's assuming the 1" drain will handle the flow you're targeting.

The overflow isn't large enough to comfortably handle 1.5 and 2 1 inchers just from eye test. I was going to decrease it to 3 1 inch drains for space savings . The other q is do the bulkheads have to be close to the surface or can one be lower and I would just extend PVC about 4" up to be slightly above the trickle for emergency?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Seems like it would be better to use the existing 1.5" as the emergency or open channel, since it would probably be easier to tune the full siphon on the 1" drain. Of course, that's assuming the 1" drain will handle the flow you're targeting.

The limiting factor for the open channel to stay quiet is not the intake size, but rather the diameter of the standpipe. The air enters AFTER the bulkhead, so as long as the intake orifice and the bulkhead are at least the same size as those on the siphon, then the open channel will function as expected. Within reason, the larger the diameter of the open channel standpipe, the higher the flow it can quietly handle.

RE tuning the siphon: You continue to infer that there are issue with my system and tuning the siphon, it is starting to get old. The system (as published) uses 1.5" standpipes and can easily be tuned to accommodate flow from a several hundred GPH to well over 3,000 GPH without ANY modification.

If a return pump is smaller than a few hundred GPH, then a system such as this is not needed, as a single 1" durso equipped with the fail-safe air intake will safely and quietly handle the flow. The same system could be made even more fail-safe with a second dry 1" standpipe. No valves, no siphon, etc. (again, such a setup is outside of the scope of this thread).

In this case, the upper bulkhead would likely be best suited as the emergency drain, not because of the bulkhead size but because it is higher in the overflow box.

You will notice I asked the OP for photos so that we could better advise him before he commits to drilling the holes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The overflow isn't large enough to comfortably handle 1.5 and 2 1 inchers just from eye test. I was going to decrease it to 3 1 inch drains for space savings . The other q is do the bulkheads have to be close to the surface or can one be lower and I would just extend PVC about 4" up to be slightly above the trickle for emergency?

How much room do you have behind the system?

The biggest problem with placing the bulkheads low in the box is the waterfall that may result from the lower water level in the box. If space is already tight in the box, then you may not have the room to extend the bulkheads upward and create the intakes (down facing to prevent them sucking air).

Do you have box dimensions?

 

[GHoover01]

Maybe this is stupid but....

Maybe this is stupid but....

I am trying to get a final design together and have one question. With bean animal design does the drain pipe have to be straight until it dumps into the sump or can I have a few 90's before it gets to the sump? Thanks for any help.

Long time reader, first time posting. Looked and could not find this info. Sorry if I missed it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There can be some turns, but it may be best of you describe your situation.

 

[GHoover01]

Ok

Ok

A very simple idea without having a HUGE detailed post.

My tank is upstairs, in the basement I would like to have a sump, pump, skimmer etc. You get the idea.

But the room the tank is in is not directly above the basement, That being said I would need to run 4-5 ft down to bottom of floor, run 10-15 feet horiz. then down some more to get to sump.

I am currently using bean animal design on a 30 but is directly below the DT. So no problems and works as designed. Just didn't know if this would work or if I loose the siphon

 

[uncleof6]

The long horizotal run will more than likely cause the siphon line to air lock (air trapped in the line,) and it will not fully start. The symptoms could vary, however, the glaring one will be the open channel taking a lot of flow, making for a bit of noise and bubbles. The system will not want to stabilize, or go silent. Re-iterated countless times in this portion of the thread. Horizontal runs repetitively show start issues.

Angling the drain down, 45° is best, but generally, down will help.

I general, I oppose such setups as being far too complex for our little hobby tanks. There are a bunch of engineering concerns, when figuring plumbing size, flow rates, friction loss, pump size etc. The infamous engineering goof being the 14' vertical lift, with 42' of dynamic head on the pump. The individual did not know, understandble since this is largely still ignored. I can sum it up with: Just because it is there, is not a good reason to put a sump down there, especially considering the 15ft lateral run: that is a lot of pipe.

 

[GHoover01]

The long horizotal run will more than likely cause the siphon line to air lock (air trapped in the line,) and it will not fully start. The symptoms could vary, however, the glaring one will be the open channel taking a lot of flow, making for a bit of noise and bubbles. The system will not want to stabilize, or go silent. Re-iterated countless times in this portion of the thread. Horizontal runs repetitively show start issues.

Angling the drain down, 45° is best, but generally, down will help.

I general, I oppose such setups as being far too complex for our little hobby tanks. There are a bunch of engineering concerns, when figuring plumbing size, flow rates, friction loss, pump size etc. The infamous engineering goof being the 14' vertical lift, with 42' of dynamic head on the pump. The individual did not know, understandble since this is largely still ignored. I can sum it up with: Just because it is there, is not a good reason to put a sump down there, especially considering the 15ft lateral run: that is a lot of pipe.

Well I thank you for the information. Not so much "just cause its there" more of Leaves the room upstairs nice and clean and can still have all the "setup" in basement.

None the less see the point.... Sucks, but I guess not gonna work very well. What to do now.......

Thanks Guys

 

[uncleof6]

Well I thank you for the information. Not so much "just cause its there" more of Leaves the room upstairs nice and clean and can still have all the "setup" in basement.

None the less see the point.... Sucks, but I guess not gonna work very well. What to do now.......

Thanks Guys

It can be done, you just need a big pump, and big pipe, angled as down as you can.