Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15081179#post15081179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I have never had the air inlet clog, or even partially clog. I use a standard John Guest (well actually Watts from Lowes) brand valve.
Click to expand...

Ok, that explains it since I'm using airline valves. Any problems with loss of tuning precision with the Guest (Lowe's or HD) valves?
Control is my main concern, lack of routine (or almost no) maintenance is the second requirement.

+1 for TOTM from me. I've been following this thread for too loing.... Great systems and worth the read for sure!

Thanks!!
 
There is no tuning with the air valve :) You could use a straight threaded to airline adaptor, the valve is just there so that the standpipe can be configured as a full siphon if needed.

Let me explain further:

The overflow characteristics are fully controleld by the siphon rate and how it interacts with the open channel. We are not trying to create a partial siphon in the open channel and control it via the amount of air (like a durso). When (if) you regulate the air to a durso standpipe, it acts as a partial siphon and makes noise. In the case of the Silent and Fail-Safe setup... it adds more variables to the mix, making tuning much harder to tune.
 
I understand your method of no restriction. I've found with my plumbing that if I regulate the air flow, the gurgling decreases as air decreases. The noise created by the valve is eliminated by a silencer made of some acrylic tube/plate and poly tubing out the top.

As for the partial siphon, I'm ok with it as my system reaches equilibrium in a short time after a power loss or shutting down the return pump. I might add 48oz of top-off before equilibrium is reached, This could result in a salinity drop of 0.3ppt in my systen and have never had a problem from a shift like this. Also the system has never had a flooding by the parial siphon. I account this to the 1.5" free flow drain for 1000-1200 gph turnover.


You have no gurgling from full air?
 
No gurgling. The siphon is adjusted to minimize the amount of water goign though the open channel. That also elimiantes bubbles in the sump. Having to "maintain" the adjustment (and subsuquent salt creep, etc) on the open channel is something I designed to avoid :)

If you feel that running the system that way works better for you, the my suggestion would be to place the valve further from the standpipe and use a larger airline and fitting that will be less susceptable to salt creep :)
 
Well after thinking about it, I'll give the surge pipe a second try. I initally thought it was too finicky. A visit to Lowe's is in my future. I love that big boys toy store!

I was also thinking to eliminate any possibility of a sudden top-off event, a third float switch is in the future for the coast-to-coast overflow. That way when the water rises the 0.75-1.0" in the over flow to reach the emergency drain the top-off pump is shut down until the system reaches equilibrium.

It's amazing how ideas spontaneously occur when revisiting threads such as yours...
 
If you are using a latch based top-off then the only time that an overfill event would happen would be IF you lost power AND the fill cycle was a few mm from kicking on AND the fill cycle lasted longer than the time for the system to balance :)
 
arrrrr....okay bean i was gonna build this exactly the way you showed it on your page and you are running it on your tank, but i read alot of people saying they wish they did it external so i am trying to envision this set up external.....my biggest problem is a 3" euro brace on the top and if i put it internal there really is no way to service it..:( so what i was thinking is just routing a slit down the whole back of the tank and putting the coast to coast on the outside with no internal box at all.....it seems to be the easiest way of doing this......the strength of the tank wont be a issue because i can put a heavy duty overflow box on the back to stiffen her back up.. .......now my question is would this be slient or loud as crap lol....having 1500 to 2000gph just cascading out the back of the tank???? and how would i get the durso pipes to work???do i need to build a complete false wall behind the tank or can i just build a box like 6x18w and however tall i need on one end and have the coast to coast flow down to the box with durso pipes in it????or am i out my mind???????lol:(
 
8' tank right? Why not go with a 5' slit and a very beefy back to the box. You can then extend 1 or 2 braces between the slit and box to stiffen the panel.

As for the location of the box (internal or external) it does not matter. 2000 GPH is going to flow over something into a box, no matter where the box rests. For the internal box, the standipes enter through the back wall. For an external box, the standpipes enter through the bottom.
 
thats where im getting confused on this..the durso coming out the bottom.....a 5ft slit is fine i have no problem with this but i just wanted to have a channel span the back of the tank not a complete box........it's to much material and alot of money for another sheet.:( i wish i could draw on the pc. so i could show you what im talking about but i cant..this is what im thinking a external box on one end of the tank to house all 3 durso pipes and having a 4"x4" channel spanning the back of the tank feeding the overflow box with the durso's in it....if that makes any sense....:(
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15085557#post15085557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
If you are using a latch based top-off then the only time that an overfill event would happen would be IF you lost power AND the fill cycle was a few mm from kicking on AND the fill cycle lasted longer than the time for the system to balance :)
Click to expand...

The emergency drain 'openings' are as close to the water line as I can have w/o having slime buildup in this drain from the occasional spill over from servicing the tank. This distance is anywhere from 1/8"-1/2" depending on tank temperature (likely due to pump efficiency decreasing w/ higher tank temps).

When I shut power down to the return pump and restart the pump after completely draining the lines, equilibrium does take about 1 minute. The Mini-Jet 404 fills that void easily under 1 min. So I thought the extra float may limit this. Really the added complexity may not be worth it since the return pump is only intentionally shut down during complete skimmer cleaning teardowns and pump servicing. That's maybe 4 hrs powered down in an entire year disregarding any power failure....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15086439#post15086439 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by troylee
thats where im getting confused on this..the durso coming out the bottom.....a 5ft slit is fine i have no problem with this but i just wanted to have a channel span the back of the tank not a complete box........it's to much material and alot of money for another sheet.:( i wish i could draw on the pc. so i could show you what im talking about but i cant..this is what im thinking a external box on one end of the tank to house all 3 durso pipes and having a 4"x4" channel spanning the back of the tank feeding the overflow box with the durso's in it....if that makes any sense....:(
Click to expand...

I understand.... I think.

You want a channel of sorts on the back that feeds an external box on the end. How would this channel be any different from a full-scale rear box? Besides the side and bottom pieces, you would have the same area of material on the back plate. Are you using acrylic I suspect??? I thought about the side external box, but feared the worst for holes of such close proximity to each other and the edges of the glass.

The next tank will definitely be an external box, but I'm not looking forward to notching a 48"-60" long x 1/2"(3/4" if it's rimless) thick pane of glass. Any tank manufacturer machine (router) individual panes or glass??? The dremel method would be miserable. Sorry...very off track in dreamland.
 
BeanAnimal...I wish I saw this thread earlier so I had time to read the 66 pages before asking a question I'm sure has been covered already...
I have a tank going into production tomorrow or Friday.
It will have a 36x6x10 EXTERNAL overflow.
As it stands now the 1 1/2" holes are going to be drilled on the bottom so the tank can be placed closer to the wall. Is it necessary that they be drilled on the vertical side for this design to work?
Also...I had planned on having a dedicated 1 1/2" drain to feed my external skimmer. Would I then use four drains ( Emergency standpipe, Siphon standpipe, Open channel standpipe AND my dedicated skimmer line )? In essence giving me TWO Siphon standpipes. Each drawing about 800 GPH.
 
Through the bottom will work just fine.

The question comes up a lot... I am in the process of doing a few more CAD renderings of different physical box configurations.

Thre are a few folks feeding skimmers directly from the standpipes. My feeling is that it may be a mixed bag. Fluctuating water level in the overflow box may make the skimmer unstable and fluctuating water level in the skimmer may make the overflow hard to tune.. or worse the two could create a feedback loop.

Maybe some other folks can chime in with their experience feeding the skimmer.

In theory, if you fix the water level in the box with a HIGHER open channel intake, you can guarantee a fairly consistent siphon. in (1) or (2) standpipes. It would not hurt to use (4) pipes (even if you end up closing one off).

The other problem I can foresee is the siphon starting reliably against the head of the skimmer.
 
ok bean here is a quick sketch on a piece of paper and i took a pic with my phone so its not the greatest lol.......go easy on me, here is the purposed overflow design on the back of my tank.
.
calfo-1.jpg
 
troylee, why the extra height in the separate compartment over on the side? IMHO the only reason to have a full-height overflow box is if it's internal and you must put bulkheads in the bottom of the tank.

If you are building an external overflow, why not keep the whole thing shallow, and put bulkheads in the back or the bottom?
 
that was my original plan....but i don't understand how the durso works in the shallow box??? thanks for helping man i really appreciate it, you to bean.......i do my best at helping in the acrylic dept. and it seems when i ask something i get no feed back it's driving me nuts..:(
 
Troy, I think we are offering as much feedback as we can. I don't think most of us understand your confusion.

The standpipes can enter through the BACK of the box or the BOTTOM of the box. In either case they function exactly the same, the only difference is where the bulkhead fitting is in relation to the elbow(s).

The water does not "care" where the overflow box is, water seeks its own level . That is, as you fill the tank and the water rises, it will eventially "overflow" the lowest barrier it finds. In our case that "barrier" is either the edge of the overflow box. That edge is called "weir".

Will more drawings help you to understand?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15090251#post15090251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Through the bottom will work just fine.

The question comes up a lot... I am in the process of doing a few more CAD renderings of different physical box configurations.

Thre are a few folks feeding skimmers directly from the standpipes. My feeling is that it may be a mixed bag. Fluctuating water level in the overflow box may make the skimmer unstable and fluctuating water level in the skimmer may make the overflow hard to tune.. or worse the two could create a feedback loop.

Maybe some other folks can chime in with their experience feeding the skimmer.

In theory, if you fix the water level in the box with a HIGHER open channel intake, you can guarantee a fairly consistent siphon. in (1) or (2) standpipes. It would not hurt to use (4) pipes (even if you end up closing one off).

The other problem I can foresee is the siphon starting reliably against the head of the skimmer.
Click to expand...

Well, I did change back to a direct siphon and open-channel last night with No problems. My Open-channel feeds my skimmer and I DO have problems already with fluctuating skimmer level. I woke up to an overflowing skimmer. I would suggest you use larger diameter tubing than 3/8" ID as the poly line does push bubbles occassionally into the skimmer.

Bean - The system works like a charm w/ your method after I recently changed the plumbing to accomodate my new sump configuration. I now have no bubbles and no noise this time. I have encountered one problem though:

The siphon will not begin on the 'full' siphon pipe after a pump shutdown. I have attributed this to one of 2 hypothesis.

1) My top 'cap' is closer to the 'T' than in your redition. This could possibly be choking the siphon by not allowing the air in the pipe to rise in the cap.

2) The exit is 7" below the water line and the resulting pressure could be too great to start the siphon. This possibility will be remedied tonite with the hacksaw.
 
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