Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[chiroken]

Regular elbow will work fine. Sanitary tees are also optional, and if the plumbing is smaller than 1.25", they are not available anywhere. The difference between the sanitary tee and a regular tee, is the regular tee will create a bit more turbulence when the water heads down. That said, 1" systems with regular tees, are also silent.

You may want to contact Charlotte Pipe & Foundry, in Charlotte, NC USA and find out if they have a distributor in Canada, there is also a plant in Muncy, PA, or have your supplier contact Charlotte Pipe...the sani tees I use all come from Charlotte Pipe.

Yes, figured the directional T's had less turbulence than regular. I may go with regular T's with this small 55g tank (1.5" plumbing as per recommendations) to see what the noise it. It will be in an office reception area and it my "guinea pig" system before I tackle my 300g. If I am happy with the noise level when the room is empty then it'll be a go for the big tank I will check out the recommended companies thank you.

And the 1/4 x 1/4 John Guest fittings are fine if I can't find the 1/4 x 3/8?

 

[uncleof6]

Yes, figured the directional T's had less turbulence than regular. I may go with regular T's with this small 55g tank (1.5" plumbing as per recommendations) to see what the noise it. It will be in an office reception area and it my "guinea pig" system before I tackle my 300g. If I am happy with the noise level when the room is empty then it'll be a go for the big tank I will check out the recommended companies thank you.

And the 1/4 x 1/4 John Guest fittings are fine if I can't find the 1/4 x 3/8?

http://www.h2odistributors.com/fittings-kits-and-tubing.asp

 

[chiroken]

http://www.h2odistributors.com/fittings-kits-and-tubing.asp

Is this the correct John Guest fitting? It is: Organic 1/4" QC × 3/8" MPT Male Connector

Bean's parts diagram lists it as "NPT" not "MPT"

http://www.h2odistributors.com/wa-mc0406.asp

I am struggling finding this unit online without buying 10 packs and having huge shipping costs to send up here to Canada. I'm coming in at ~$30-35. I may just need to go local and go with 1/4 x 1/4. I assume the 1/4 thread will still allow a full syphon to develop in the open channel pipe if the water level rises in the overflo box?

 

[mathman7728]

I too am building a bean overflow and finding the plumbing parts is a big pain in the A$#!!!

following up on the John Guest fitting after reading bean's website it seems to me all that fitting does is allow air into the overflow so why do you even need a fitting? why not simply drill a whole in the cap and leave it open (i.e. no fitting at all)???

 

[wideawake]

I don't think the size of the fitting matters. As long as you can put the line close enough to the water.
Mathman,
The open channel can become a full syphon when the line sucks in water instead of air. This is in case water rises too high in the overflow for some reason.

We do not have the fancy sanitary tee in my country. What I use is a normal tee with an elbow. Works like a charm.

 

[chiroken]

john guest fittings

john guest fittings

For those of us north of the border I found the John Guest fitting made by another manufacturer at home depot. It was made by Watts and was in the irrigation section if I remember correctly. I then found the actual John Guest fitting at a pool/hot tub shop (not a retailer on the actual hot tubs, but the parts store for repairs etc.) Hope this helps. No sanitary T's to be found and no 1.25 x 1 slip street elbows either but I can get around that with a 1.25 x 1 slip bushing. Will probably have to order a valve for the full syphon as I can only seem to find your standard ball valve or the regular gate valve you'd find under your hot tub. Anyone got a Canadian online source for these? Thx.

 

[uncleof6]

Is this the correct John Guest fitting? It is: Organic 1/4" QC × 3/8" MPT Male Connector

Bean's parts diagram lists it as "NPT" not "MPT"

http://www.h2odistributors.com/wa-mc0406.asp

I am struggling finding this unit online without buying 10 packs and having huge shipping costs to send up here to Canada. I'm coming in at ~$30-35. I may just need to go local and go with 1/4 x 1/4. I assume the 1/4 thread will still allow a full syphon to develop in the open channel pipe if the water level rises in the overflo box?

NPT = National Pipe Thread = U.S. standard pipe threads.
MPT = Male Pipe Thread = Male Pipe Thread = no difference between the two.

Don't know why you were looking at the cheap stuff, what you want are one of these:

http://www.h2odistributors.com/pi010823s.asp

http://www.h2odistributors.com/pi010822s.asp

The watts fittings, at home depot, are cheap chinese knockoffs. It is like the difference between filet mingon and hamburger... They are not even close to the quality of John Guest fittings. (Brand Name, not a type of fitting.) Depends on what ones thoughts on 'value' are...

 

[uncleof6]

I too am building a bean overflow and finding the plumbing parts is a big pain in the A$#!!!

following up on the John Guest fitting after reading bean's website it seems to me all that fitting does is allow air into the overflow so why do you even need a fitting? why not simply drill a whole in the cap and leave it open (i.e. no fitting at all)???

That is not all it does. Think you should read the article again. The air vent line is a fail safe trigger...

 

[chiroken]

Don't know why you were looking at the cheap stuff, what you want are one of these:

http://www.h2odistributors.com/pi010823s.asp

http://www.h2odistributors.com/pi010822s.asp

The watts fittings, at home depot, are cheap chinese knockoffs. It is like the difference between filet mingon and hamburger... They are not even close to the quality of John Guest fittings. (Brand Name, not a type of fitting.) Depends on what ones thoughts on 'value' are...

How would I know it was the cheap stuff? Priced $0.05 different. And what I ended up buying was the "expensive" version anyways locally (major effort and lucky to come across it.) I realize John Guest is the brand. I've found them at least so I can tick it off the list. Now to hopefully find a valve for the full syphon, hopes aren't too high...This is the last part that I need before I can actually seriously look at starting assembly.

 

[Tom39]

I am in the planning stages of a 220g cube build. The plan is to incorporate a beananimal with a coast to coast overflow on the back panel.
My question pertains to the location of the returns. The display will be three sides of the cube, with a C2C overflow occupying the upper back wall. Which leads me to the question of where to place the holes for the return lines.

My concern is that if I place the lines below the overflow, when the power goes out, I could have the potential to drain off 50% of my display if everything failed. (By everything I mean, return check valves and/or interior plumbing.)

Anyway, I was hoping that someone would like to share how they set up the returns on their system, if they are happy with how it turned out or would change something about it to make it better.

Thanks
Tom G

 

[MidwesternTexan]

This is how I did it, works great.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2329538

Here's a pic of the water test- works like a champ! ONe side siphon, one side open with a vent that the end of the tube goes underwater in high water levels in the overflow/DT and turns that one in to a total siphon is emergencies.

 

[Tom39]

Looks good, a BA sure is the way to go. No doubt about that.
How did you run your return lines though? Did you drill and add bulkhead fittings or run them over the top?

 

[uncleof6]

This is how I did it, works great.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2329538

Here's a pic of the water test- works like a champ! ONe side siphon, one side open with a vent that the end of the tube goes underwater in high water levels in the overflow/DT and turns that one in to a total siphon is emergencies.

Where is the dry emergency? The dry emergency is an integral part of the system failsafe! For safety ALL three standpipes MUST be used. As this system is set up, it is an improperly implemented two pipe siphon system, it is not even a 'herbie' either; it is not safe. From the instructions found both in this thread, and on Bean's website: All three pipes must be used.

This thread is for Bean Animal's three pipe drain system, posting images of 2 pipe siphon systems, whether implemented properly, or improperly, just confuses folks into thinking it is a 'modified bean system,' or how the system is supposed to be setup. Especially, since most folks don't read the first page of the original thread, or the instructions on Bean's website...

 

[uncleof6]

I am in the planning stages of a 220g cube build. The plan is to incorporate a beananimal with a coast to coast overflow on the back panel.
My question pertains to the location of the returns. The display will be three sides of the cube, with a C2C overflow occupying the upper back wall. Which leads me to the question of where to place the holes for the return lines.

My concern is that if I place the lines below the overflow, when the power goes out, I could have the potential to drain off 50% of my display if everything failed. (By everything I mean, return check valves and/or interior plumbing.)

Anyway, I was hoping that someone would like to share how they set up the returns on their system, if they are happy with how it turned out or would change something about it to make it better.

Thanks
Tom G

Some make the C2C not a C2C, and drill for bulkheads, returns at both ends of the overflow. If one considers fluid dynamics, this is very far from ideal, as it increases friction losses in the return system, which means a larger pump is needed to do the same job. It also ignores the true function of the power heads, which is to distribute the 'return water' to all points in the tank, not add to the total flow rate. (An adjunctive process rather than a complimentary or supplementary process.)

Over all, the ideal return line is a single return line, one size (in most cases) over the size of the actual pump outlet, routed up over the back of the tank, with the outlet terminating within 1" of the water surface. Do not rely on adjunctive aids such as check valves (leave them out, the failure probability is 100%) and 'anti-siphon' holes, (the failure probability of which is 99%.)

1" below the water surface limits the power out drain down, and the size of the sump does the rest. Insure there is enough 'empty' volume in the sump to contain all power out drain down. This is called a 'passive failsafe' that does not have a failure mode. If the sump does not have sufficient room, re-design the sump so that it does, or replace the sump with one that does.

I run single return lines (unless the subject systems is very large 300+) up over the back. Clients go 'no don't do that,' but after it is all said and done, they don't see it. I it is called artistic redirection or 'stage effect,' when you run black pvc. (actual black pvc, not fusion painted white pvc which, IMHO, is really tacky.)

 

[ekgringo]

Not quite level overflow

Not quite level overflow

Hi all. I've got a C2C internal glass overflow box of my own build. Unfortunately it's not 100% level and so water is not overflowing about 1/4 of the length.

I know the "right thing to do" would be to take everything down for a week, strip the silicone off and re-do it, but that's not really feasible and chances are I would end up with the other end not overflowing. :headwalls:

Should I just leave it and not stress over it?

What about trying to grind down the glass on that last 1/4 as a workaround? I have a Dremel. I could shut down the pumps and let the overflow drain out and then surround the area with plastic sheeting to catch the glass dust. Or am I just asking for trouble?

Thanks!

 

[Tom39]

Some make the C2C not a C2C, and drill for bulkheads, returns at both ends of the overflow. If one considers fluid dynamics, this is very far from ideal, as it increases friction losses in the return system, which means a larger pump is needed to do the same job. It also ignores the true function of the power heads, which is to distribute the 'return water' to all points in the tank, not add to the total flow rate. (An adjunctive process rather than a complimentary or supplementary process.)

Over all, the ideal return line is a single return line, one size (in most cases) over the size of the actual pump outlet, routed up over the back of the tank, with the outlet terminating within 1" of the water surface. Do not rely on adjunctive aids such as check valves (leave them out, the failure probability is 100%) and 'anti-siphon' holes, (the failure probability of which is 99%.)

1" below the water surface limits the power out drain down, and the size of the sump does the rest. Insure there is enough 'empty' volume in the sump to contain all power out drain down. This is called a 'passive failsafe' that does not have a failure mode. If the sump does not have sufficient room, re-design the sump so that it does, or replace the sump with one that does.

I run single return lines (unless the subject systems is very large 300+) up over the back. Clients go 'no don't do that,' but after it is all said and done, they don't see it. I it is called artistic redirection or 'stage effect,' when you run black pvc. (actual black pvc, not fusion painted white pvc which, IMHO, is really tacky.)

Thanks for the advice. Would you by chance have a picture of the finished product?

 

[Shawn O]

minimum pipe/bulkhead sizes for 75~90gal.

minimum pipe/bulkhead sizes for 75~90gal.

I was wondering what you folks think would be the minimum pipe/bulkhead sizes for 75~90 gallon tank set up as a mixed reef. Would 1 1/4" bulkheads, piping, true-union ball valves and sanitary T's be sufficient?


I know Uncleof6 stated that he prefers a C2C for the BA system with a single over-the-top return line but I'm leaning towards the most2most overflow. It will most likely be a 48" tank with a 36" overflow along the back and a pair of 3/4" return bulkheads, one on either side of the overflow. I intend on putting a powerhead in each corner below the returns anyway. Would a pair of 3/4" returns be enough return flow for the 1 1/4" BA system or do I need to go up to a pair of 1" returns?

 

[uncleof6]

I was wondering what you folks think would be the minimum pipe/bulkhead sizes for 75~90 gallon tank set up as a mixed reef. Would 1 1/4" bulkheads, piping, true-union ball valves and sanitary T's be sufficient?


I know Uncleof6 stated that he prefers a C2C for the BA system with a single over-the-top return line but I'm leaning towards the most2most overflow. It will most likely be a 48" tank with a 36" overflow along the back and a pair of 3/4" return bulkheads, one on either side of the overflow. I intend on putting a powerhead in each corner below the returns anyway. Would a pair of 3/4" returns be enough return flow for the 1 1/4" BA system or do I need to go up to a pair of 1" returns?

You are approaching this all basackwards.

The drain system needs to handle the flow from the pump, not the pump accommodate the drains...perhaps it is just semantics....the correct semantics would be is: is a 1.25" BA system enough to handle the flow from two 3/4" returns; a question which is unanswerable. 3000gph? Probably not enough... 5gph would be way overkill...

1" bulkheads are plenty big enough for a 90 gallon tank, max real world flow capacity, to be expected, would be ~ 1200gph. Due to issues with noise with open channel drains, you would be better off using 1.5" pipe on the 1" bulkheads. The original design was done on a 75 gallon tank, 1" bulkheads, with 1.5" pipe...

What pump, and what flow rate?

As for the returns, two return lines accomplish nothing, but reduce the flow rate due to increased friction loss. On an 8' 240 there is a purpose for them. What size pipe should be used is determined by the pump outlet size, and the pipe size should be one size above that, in most cases. Mag drive pumps 9.5 and larger need to be 1.5". I fail to see what power heads have to do with one return line or two return lines. Either way you still need the power heads, to move water to the bottom of the tank, and you still need the same number of power heads...

 

[chiroken]

As for the returns, two return lines accomplish nothing, but reduce the flow rate due to increased friction loss. On an 8' 240 there is a purpose for them. What size pipe should be used is determined by the pump outlet size, and the pipe size should be one size above that, in most cases. Mag drive pumps 9.5 and larger need to be 1.5". I fail to see what power heads have to do with one return line or two return lines. Either way you still need the power heads, to move water to the bottom of the tank, and you still need the same number of power heads...

I would like to follow up on something you said above and your recommendation. My return pump for my larger sump build is a Sicce High Flow Syncra 12.0, 3200gph 0', about 2900gph at 5'. 8' tank, 300g. The pump outlet is 1 1/2". I was going to come off the pump, run to a T and use reducers to run 2 1" returns. OK, bad idea? Better option? Is this OK to stay at 1 1/2" or do you recommend going up to 2", but then what are the return bulkheads?

And as for your comment about using powerhead to move water down...what are you thoughts on using a return spray bar with the outlet holes in a downward direction. I am thinking this would create a downward flow down the back of the tank, forwards and then up the front of the tank. The water would then move rearwards to the overflow. Is this wishful thinking in a sparsely decorated tank?

 

[uncleof6]

I would like to follow up on something you said above and your recommendation. My return pump for my larger sump build is a Sicce High Flow Syncra 12.0, 3200gph 0', about 2900gph at 5'. 8' tank, 300g. The pump outlet is 1 1/2". I was going to come off the pump, run to a T and use reducers to run 2 1" returns. OK, bad idea? Better option? Is this OK to stay at 1 1/2" or do you recommend going up to 2", but then what are the return bulkheads?

And as for your comment about using powerhead to move water down...what are you thoughts on using a return spray bar with the outlet holes in a downward direction. I am thinking this would create a downward flow down the back of the tank, forwards and then up the front of the tank. The water would then move rearwards to the overflow. Is this wishful thinking in a sparsely decorated tank?

Nope. And, your flow figures are not allowing for friction losses in the plumbing. At a minimum with really well designed plumbing, friction loss will add ~ 2' of head pressure. With poor plumbing design, you can easily reach the shut off head pressure for the pump. Two 1" branches are not equal to the area (what the flow is based on: the cross-sectional area) of a 1.5" or 2" line. This will sky rocket the friction loss, and kill the flow... Single line up over the back of the tank in 2" pipe. Don't use bulkheads!!

Same thing with a spray bar: It will sky rocket the friction loss, and kill the flow.

I know you know this, but will reiterate it again: there is a science to this called hydroynamics, (the sudy of liquids in motion) which occupies a niche right beside aerodynamics, with are both subdivisions of Fluid Dynamics which deals with fluid flow, which is a subdiscipline of Fluid Mechanics, the natural science of fluids in motion (both liquids and gases.) :blown: :dance::clown: