Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

Just following up from a previous post with some of the questions I still have. Anyone provide some insight? Thanks in advance.

2) You need enough room in the box to get your hand in and service the elbows. Size the box accordingly...

4) Sure you can but there is so little point to doing that, it isn't worth the time. You have to be able to get your hand in the box as stated above. Folks are a bit obsessed with making the box as small as possible, I can't think of a logical reason to do that...

5) Sure you can, but... see above...

7) No, you do not need both primer and glue. The glue alone is sufficient and more than capable of making strong leak free joins, for both aquariums and general plumbing use. The problem in the general plumbing area is plumbers are in too much in a hurry, and hack stuff in a great deal of the time, so the primer gives them an edge. However, primer is only required to pipe 4" and larger, and the only thing it really does is clean the pipe...it is all a bunch of hype perpetrated by the primer manufacturers because they could not sell any primer...on the cans of glue in the instructions it says: "Use primer if REQUIRED;" it ain't required so don't bother with it...if you have kept your new pipe buried underground, yes, you would be well off to use primer...

8) I try to keep people from ending up with the dry emergency so close to the top of the tank, but (see above) trying to minimize things will bite you in the caboose...You can cut the elbow down if necessary...the top of the elbow, if the dimensions I post are adheared to, the top of the upturned elbow winds up around the top of the weir. I tell most before they do any drilling to measure their plumbing parts, and make sure the dimensions will work for their system, if you mix and match parts (1.5" elbones on 1" bulkheads, you will end up too high...) If you use 1" bulkhead dimensions for 1.5" bulkheads, you will end up too high. (the 1.5" dimensions are posted a few times in this thread.) If you go for the minimum box size, you will end up too high.

 

[chiroken]

8) I try to keep people from ending up with the dry emergency so close to the top of the tank, but (see above) trying to minimize things will bite you in the caboose...You can cut the elbow down if necessary...the top of the elbow, if the dimensions I post are adheared to, the top of the upturned elbow winds up around the top of the weir. I tell most before they do any drilling to measure their plumbing parts, and make sure the dimensions will work for their system, if you mix and match parts (1.5" elbones on 1" bulkheads, you will end up too high...) If you use 1" bulkhead dimensions for 1.5" bulkheads, you will end up too high. (the 1.5" dimensions are posted a few times in this thread.) If you go for the minimum box size, you will end up too high.

I will have to take more of an exact look to see where the top of the upturned 90 will be w.r.t. the top of the weir as well as the top of the tank. I am mixing components, 1 1/4" 90's along with 1" bulkheads as in the original design. From what I remember reading...1" 90's are not a good idea with 1" bulkheads.

 

[pdiehm]

ordered my bulkheads, and a 2nd diamond bill, with a drill guide. Going to attempt to drill Friday night, or Saturday afternoon.

Got my measurements down, and because of the guard on top of the overflow box, holes had to be bumped down 1/2", unless I set the emergency hole 1/2" lower than the main siphon. Puts the top of my upturned elbow 5/8" below the top weir of the box (1/8" gap between the guard and the elbow).

I could just take the guard off, which leaves the hole centers 2" or so below the bottom trim.

 

[chiroken]

OK, much searching (again!) of the thread and I've come up with (page 203):

1) top of weir 1" below top of glass. As I don't know how high the actual water will be going into the weir I may cheat a tiiiiiny bit and go a hair less than 1", do not want to see a water line!

2) water line should end up approx. 1" below top of weir, or 2" from top of glass. This can vary depending on how the system is tuned.

3) Centre of hole from top of glass to be 2 3/4" (or 3 3/4"?), this would be for a 1" bulkhead. This leaves 1 7/8" (or 2 7/8") from top of glass to edge of hole...and is a bit over the minimum safe distance from the edge of the glass to drill. I need to ensure that this distance allows clearance for the nut of the bulkhead to fit below the bottom of the plastic tank trim. I did get confused Uncleof6 about your 3.25-4.25" range, I haven't found this reference so far. Are you suggesting centre of hole to be 3.24-4.25" from top of glass and this is to allow the top of the upturned 90 to be at or below the top of the weir?


4) I can, if I so choose, to have the full siphon bulkhead 1/2" lower than the other 2. Isn't necessary if the entire system is set up bang on but it "can" facilitate the siphon to re-start easier after pump shut downs for feedings etc. by slowing down how fast water enters the open channel.

Have I got it??? Fingers crossed

A question: I am planning a weir width of approx. 18" and not sure if placement of the 3 bulkheads makes a difference for ease of getting the plumbing into my sump or not. Or if the siphon is more or less effective based on its placement along the 18" (I assume no). I see some siphons are the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd bulkhead. Does it matter? I will be sure to leave space between the edge of tank and each of the 3 holes, at least the diameter of the hole (1 3/4")

Thank you!

 

[uncleof6]

You know, we are not building space vehicles to journey to Alpha Centauri, and this is not rocket science nor integral calculus: it is simple addition and subtraction, ok and division also (dividing the hole diameter in half which equals the radius............) Stop reading, you are overthinking it.

Study this drawing, it will work for 1" elbows, adapt it to whatever size elbows you are using and get on with it... your holes will end up somewhere between the upper and the lower hole, and make them all the same level. If you set the weir at the level indicated by the top black solid horizontal line, in relation to the trim on the outside of the tank, you will not see the waterline in the main part of the tank, because the head height behind the weir will be higher than that level...you will see the water line in the overflow forget about it...

I don't know why you want to undercut the length of the overflow to 18", you are only doing the system a disservice by not using the full length of the back...

I don't really mind being asked the same question over and over again, what gets me, however, is tomorrow someone will ask the same question...

 

[chiroken]

You know, we are not building space vehicles to journey to Alpha Centauri, and this is not rocket science nor integral calculus: it is simple addition and subtraction, ok and division also (dividing the hole diameter in half which equals the radius............) Stop reading, you are overthinking it.

Study this drawing, it will work for 1" elbows, adapt it to whatever size elbows you are using and get on with it... your holes will end up somewhere between the upper and the lower hole, and make them all the same level. If you set the weir at the level indicated by the top black solid horizontal line, in relation to the trim on the outside of the tank, you will not see the waterline in the main part of the tank, because the head height behind the weir will be higher than that level...you will see the water line in the overflow forget about it...

I don't know why you want to undercut the length of the overflow to 18", you are only doing the system a disservice by not using the full length of the back...

I understand it isn't rocket science but for someone where this is completely new it is confusing and I need to get my head around it. Measure twice cut once is something I follow in my building endeavours. A 300 page thread is a lot to absorb, I'm doing my best to filter out the "fluff"!

I will study your diagram and go from there. I think the 1 thing I need are the actual dimensions of my 1 1/4" 90's and just make sure they fit into the allowable hole placement.

I was going away from a coast to coast as I really would like to avoid doing an over the back return. I guess I can always do a thru-box return, I have the bulkheads.

I do appreciate the time for your answers and my apologies if I'm making you roll your eyes and bang your head against a wall. :rolleye1: :headwalls:

 

[uncleof6]

I understand it isn't rocket science but for someone where this is completely new it is confusing and I need to get my head around it. Measure twice cut once is something I follow in my building endeavours. A 300 page thread is a lot to absorb, I'm doing my best to filter out the "fluff"!

I will study your diagram and go from there. I think the 1 thing I need are the actual dimensions of my 1 1/4" 90's and just make sure they fit into the allowable hole placement.

I was going away from a coast to coast as I really would like to avoid doing an over the back return. I guess I can always do a thru-box return, I have the bulkheads.

I do appreciate the time for your answers and my apologies if I'm making you roll your eyes and bang your head against a wall. :rolleye1: :headwalls:

Well, on the over the back return, the reality is, you won't notice it at all...and if you do, paint it black and it will disappear. Going through a bulkhead will just cause another restriction in the return line...

 

[chiroken]

After doing some calculations, and because I'm visual, I did a mock up to see what it'll actually look like and where the upturned 90 will actually sit. Used 1/2" board and dry fit bh and internal 90, both up and down turned.

Centre of hole (1" bh) is 3 1/8" from top of plastic trim (glass is less than 1/4" below trim top). Leaves top edge of hole a safe distance from top of glass.

Putting top edge of weir at bottom of plastic trim (1 1/8") leaves my 1 1/4" upturned 90 about 3/16" below top of weir so it is also well placed.

Front edge of 90 is 3 3/4" from back glass so giving 1/4" clearance to weir gives hand space of 4". Height of weir wall be end up approx. 4 3/4" to leave 1/4" of clearance under the 90 and total depth of the box will be approx. 5 3/4" from top of glass. Final box dimensions will be determined once plumbing dry fit in actual tank.

Man, having a mock up makes all the difference! Also cut an appropriate sized board to simulate the weir and it all is clear as day. I think I'm good to go....just gotta make the final decision on box width and method of running the 1" return back into the display tank (55g). Once that is done then I can determine bh locations along the back wall. Then.....drill, drill, drill!

 

[Drama]

After seeing the last few post I have found that I have drilled my tank an inch lower than the above example. Lol
We will see how it works, my own mistake for rushing to drill the tank. Internal overflow is siliconed into place. Still building my sump and a few month out from being wet. Here is a quick pic to break up all these words. Lol

And another of overflow after assembly. As you can see its almost c2c
Live and learn.

I enjoy this thread, thanks for all the time you take to teach us and answer our questions

 

[uncleof6]

The only real consequence (if you do everything else right) will be a rather higher waterfall into the overflow than absolute silence might permit....and a taller overflow box...

 

[Drama]

The only real consequence (if you do everything else right) will be a rather higher waterfall into the overflow than absolute silence might permit....and a taller overflow box...

This is what I ended up doing^^^, making a taller overflow. I have the top of the overflow even with the outside trim so hopefully I wont see any water line or barely be able to see it. Hope.the sound it may create is not to loud. I need to measure the emergency drain from top lip of overflow. I believe it is 1/2", 3/4" max below top lip. I took all the plumbing off before sealing the overflow on. The 90 facing down has 1/2" -3/4" max to bottom of overflow as well. If it is to deep I plan to trim the 90. I've had several questions in this thread that were answered and helped me along the way. So I hope all is well when I get it wet and operational.

 

[hbash]

Newbee needing Lottsa Help with his Bean Animal

Newbee needing Lottsa Help with his Bean Animal

Hi. I just ordered the construction of a 220 Reef Tank to replace my current 220 which is in the process of splitting/self destructing (another story). The manufacturer of the new tank has convinced me as have the myriad articles to go with the BeanAnimal Overflow. I have been looking at the various versions as well as the original at the authors web site and as a result have been purchasing more PVC parts then any 10 plumbing supplies to make sure I have what I need to get this done.

Having said all that. I note that there are variations and some details that have escaped me (I am Software Engineer with 10 thumbs). So here we go with my request for details.

The tank is 72"x24"x30" with a 48" overflow box that has three bulkheads centered on the bottom of the overflow box at 8", 24" and 40" positions. The bulkheads are 1.5" and I have purchase probably every 1.5" fitting, including some 1.5" to 1" adapters and barbs along with the Guest fitting for the air tube. I'm ready to build, just need the details to do so. I won't have much time to do this over as the tank is a replacement for a failing tank and so I kind of have to get this right the first shot (good luck, yes?).

Here are the questions and forgive me for asking what has probably been asked a gazillion times.

The external overflow box is 12" high with 2 18" notches for skimming the surface water into the box. The return pump is a Quiet One 6000 (which I may upgrade to something with more horsepower if it seems like it's needed) to be plumbed to one inches barbs to the 3/4" return lock links through two bulk heads drilled into the tank top left and top right back.

1) How high to have the water in the overflow box (1/2" to top water line)
2) How high for the open, full and emergency pipes (bottom box to top of elbows seems a useful point to measure
3) How low to set the airline from the open pipe Guest connector
4) Do I affix the air line to anything to hold it in place.
5) How to best terminate the three return lines: the emergency probably straight down to my sump and the other two to go to the right side where my EShopps double filter sock holder is (the problem area).

Thanks and sorry for being such a dummy about all this.

 

[uncleof6]

Ok, so I was wrong, it took three days . My suggestion at this point, is that you read the last 30 pages of this thread, give or take. After reading that much of the thread, if you still have questions, please feel free to ask them again.

It cannot be overstressed that reading this thread is obligatory for those wishing to implement this drain system.

 

[woodnaquanut]

@hbash...

1. The higher the water is in the OF, the less noise there is from the water falling into the OF box. My bulkheads are slip so I just put standpipes in dry. Makes it easy to adjust length if needed. Mine are set about 1" below the OF.

2. The length of the standpipes determines this. I know you engineer types like to calculate it all. My training is in biology so I just guess and observe the results, adjust as needed. Be sure to test for power failure restart. If the siphon doesn't start fast enough you will need to adjust height to prevent flooding.

3. Mine is just below the level of the emergency. I think this differs from Uncle's. My logic -- if the open starts full siphon before emergency, it will call attention to itself (big slurping noises) and problems can be dealt with before there is a true emergency.

4. Yes.

5. I terminate all three in the same area. It's important to not have any horizontal runs, especially in the full siphon. It's also important that the drain lines not terminate too deep in the sump. Less than 1" below normal sump level seems to work well.

 

[Tpakiz]

Ok, so I was wrong, it took three days . My suggestion at this point, is that you read the last 30 pages of this thread, give or take. After reading that much of the thread, if you still have questions, please feel free to ask them again.

It cannot be overstressed that reading this thread is obligatory for those wishing to implement this drain system.

Many people have stated "go back 'x' pages for the info"...using the (approximate) post number would be invaluable. Reason being:

How many posts per page do you use? I use 50...not saying that I'm unwilling to read 1500 posts (I've actually read every single post in both threads and Bean's website is bookmarked), but there is A LOT of fluff/misinformation (ala "The Todd") in that many posts and typically leads to more confusion...especially when people unfamiliar with the system (us rookies!) get ready to start punching holes and "just want to be sure" they are doing it the best and latest way. I thought I totally understood what to do (and would scream at my phone/iPad when the same questions were asked over and over), but now that I have a tank in front of me, I realize how much I DON'T know!

Once again Uncle...thanks for all you do! I would have given up a LONG time ago! . Is there some sort of "Reef Central Hall of Fame" you can be nominated for?!?

 

[uncleof6]

3. Mine is just below the level of the emergency. I think this differs from Uncle's. My logic -- if the open starts full siphon before emergency, it will call attention to itself (big slurping noises) and problems can be dealt with before there is a true emergency.

When the system is setup properly, at startup, the water level in the overflow rises and water flows in the dry emergency. Though some water flows in the open channel as well. By placing the the air vent line lower than the inlet to the dry emergency, the open channel trips to siphon, and starts purging air, before the main siphon purges the air. This shifts the main flow of the system to the open channel, or splits the flow (not necessarily evenly) rather than the main siphon taking the majority of the flow. Common complaint: "My open channel is taking all the flow." By design, the open channel is not supposed to trip to siphon, unless both the siphon, and dry emergency are partially/fully occuluded.

This is at the very top of the list of implementation errors that cause startup issues with Bean's drain system. "Air vent line too low in the overflow" It does not differ from my anything, it differs from the logic of the original design. The placement of the air vent line is made very clear in the setup instructions page 1 of the original thread, and on bean's website:

"The Open Channel standpipe (right) is fitted with an airline that is curled back over and attached just below the trim inside the overflow box (more on this later)."

The only way this could possibly be misinterpreted is if one has a rimless tank with no trim....or someone mentions almost as if in passing, that they did this because "......................"

Another thing to think about is what happens when the open channel trips to siphon? Since a siphon operates silently and bubble free, if the open channel does trip to siphon, what noise and bubbling will be present, past the length of time it takes to purge the air out? None....

The dry emergency, on the other hand, when operating makes the classical gurgling noises along with bubbles. Due to the orientation of the elbow, the stand pipe sucks air...in Bean's own words within the last two pages (@ 25 posts per page for those that try to put everything on one page) he came home to the dry emergency gurgling away due to a system blockage...

 

[uncleof6]

1) How high to have the water in the overflow box (1/2" to top water line)

Post# 7209. However, if the holes are in the "right place" (ballpark) this takes care of itself...Post #'s 7176 and 7210

2) How high for the open, full and emergency pipes (bottom box to top of elbows seems a useful point to measure

Depends on flow rate, however: Post #3.

3) How low to set the airline from the open pipe Guest connector

From Bean's website:

"The Open Channel standpipe (right) is fitted with an airline that is curled back over and attached just below the trim inside the overflow box (more on this later)."

4) Do I affix the air line to anything to hold it in place.

Attach it to the trim with a clip or other means...a question that is not often asked and answered...

5) How to best terminate the three return lines: the emergency probably straight down to my sump and the other two to go to the right side where my EShopps double filter sock holder is (the problem area).

How would you terminate a durso standpipe in the sump? The only provisos with this system are:

From Post #1:
"All (3) standpipes extend into the sump and terminate just below the water level."

Subsequently "just below" was further defined as < 1". The pipes do not HAVE to terminate below the water line.

Thanks and sorry for being such a dummy about all this.

You are not a dummy, a rather unkind thing to say about yourself; you just need to read/study the thread and Bean's website more than you have. Reducing the number of posts per page, will probably make the process a bit less daunting.....

 

[Raoul5Duke]

I have had this up an running for a couple of months now on a 360 gallon display. Yesterday while performing maintenance I turned the main pump off and then back on when I was through. My problem was the center overflow drain formed a full syphone while the far right drain couldn't seem to purge the air like it should. Any thoughts on what caused this?

 

[uncleof6]

The answer most likely is residing within the last several posts. Or, on page one of the original thread, or Bean's website.

After only a few months of operation, it seems unlikely that buildup inside the pipes is responible, however, cleaning out the plumbing especially the air vent line for the open channel, may improve the system performance. This would be the most likely cause if the system was operating properly to begin with... check off all the configuration points (depth of outlets in sump, placement of the air vent line, etc etc etc.) while you are at it.

 

[pdiehm]

All drilled!

No turning back.