Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[hbash]

I appreciate your words and advise. But, the tank is in process, it will be much better than the overflow I had as well as much nicer all around in terms of construction and materials.

I am not disagreeing at all with you since first of all I have never had such an overflow. But, I believe that the manufacturers with 25 plus years making custom tanks and also using and recommending the bean animal overflow, must have a clue about how to make their tank operate well using it.

Perhaps not optimally, but hopefully quite good. I will maximize the return without turning the tank into a blender (lol).

I'll upload pictures when I have had the opportunity to do so and hopefully will be able to get some of the wisdom here to tweak the setup as best as it can be.

Also, I have seen several examples of what had been described as c2c overflows that did not completely cover the side that they resided upon. But again, I have zero experience with this system and will just have to learn more about it and tweak things.

I will ask the manufacturer why they didn't go the full 72" but the 48" as I stated just to understand the motivation.

For fun, this is a movie of my tank that is getting swapped out. Check the last video:

http://www.bash.com/fish-video

 

[Bjanzen]

Well...... I hope it works out for you . I am still not sure what you are looking for here. I agree with uncleof6....... I would not use that overflow for many many reasons. I am also very confused as to why a manufacturer would suggest a system of which they clearly do not understand. They may call their own overflow a c2c but if it doesn't reach each coast then it isn't correct. Also a c2c doesn't have teeth or anything else that you describe. Bean Animal put much thought into this and of 927k views must be quite revolutionary. You may come up with your own variety and there are many ways out there to silent water noise but we would like to see you succeed and go about it correctly. This method has been tried and true for a while now and any deviation will cause issues.

 

[hbash]

Again, I appreciate your wisdom on this and will ask the manufacturer to explain. There must be something in the description or his design that I am misstating.

They have been in business for over 25 years and manufactured nearly a quarter of a million custom tanks. You gotta have figured out something with that much time and effort, I would think. But I'll reach out to them for a better understanding.

Also, until we see it, let's not so quickly write it off. A picture is worth a thousand words and perhaps 220 gallons too. Some of "Uncles" allusions to my posts don't match what I stated so I'm in the juries out on that for the moment anyway. From tempering the bottom (never said that) to similar. Perhaps I'm not clear and pictures/figures would have helped. Let's just see what how and why and then better to know.

 

[uncleof6]

I think I did mention holes. There are 3 holes on the bottom of the overflow, so that the pipes get connected to the bottom of the box versus three bulk heads through the back.

That part of the mechanism I think would work the same. The issue is where the elbows center lines are with respect to the two notches which are where the surface water enters the overflow box from.

Also, regarding noise, isn't that a function of notch position, water height in box and the elbow heights?

Pipe size is 1.5" too.

I only looked at the post you posted earlier today...in that post you said nothing about holes...I did not go back and look for previous posts.... anyway

This may help you determine where the elbows should be. It is "back drilled" template, however, the elbow center line is the center of the hole, and it shows the relationship between the top of the weir (lowest point of the "notches", and the center line of the elbows. Actual running water line in the overflow will be between the ~ the center line of the elbow, and the top of the elbow.

Out the bottom works the same, as out the back...it is the box I am "looking" at....

Noise is a function of flow rate vs effective length of the weir and the height of the waterfall. This also has a direct affect on the surface skimming/surface renewal efficiency.

It is a little on the confusing side... The effective length of a weir (or in this case the overflow) is the amount of usable length through which water will flow.

You have a 48" total length overflow box, with 18" notches. Great, but you only have 36" effective length. (the two notches) So your effective overflow is only half of a C2C. So far so good?

Ok, if I understand correctly there are also teeth (fingers) in the notches. Great, add up the space (in inches) between the teeth/fingers, and that is your total effective length... but there is more...

Because the effective length is not actually very long, at a given flow rate, the water will pile up higher behind the weir (tank side,) and due to the physics of weirs, more subsurface water will flow into the overflow, than the surface water. This is not really just a not exactly optimal situation, rather it can be very significant. Hence when we speak of C2C that is exactly what we mean: from one end of the tank to the other. This is what is optimal...

About noise: The fingers/teeth will cause the water to channel, which will create noise, even with a relatively short drop into the overflow...

I think that most of this is spilt milk at this point, as from before, the back glass panel was headed out for tempering. In my opinion these 'builders' are really taking you for a ride here, from just that alone...and because I know better, 200,000 tanks without a single failure they are willing to tell anyone about...

Also, I never said a word about tempering the bottom, that was some one else that brought that up...you posted:

My tank is being built for me and I am pretty sure that the 3/4" bulk heads have been drilled and the glass back has gone for tempering. So, I may be out of luck regarding increasing the size of my bulk heads.

I quoted your post, and asked:

Why did it go for tempering? If the tank was being built right it should not need to be tempered....

When did I mention the bottom panel??????

You may not like the answers you are getting, but going after the messenger is not going to help

 

[hbash]

Thank you for the explanation and this diagram. It, along with your wisdom will be of great help. In defense of the builder, he specified that hole size based on the output of my return pump, which I am looking to replace with one of those higher output lower power DC numbers. He bumped it up as I requested as I caught him before the tempering.

He explained one or two things regarding the tempering. First he stated that cutting glass, to some extent weakens it so they temper it after. The tempering he tells me can increase the glass strength by a factor of 6. Further he tells me that the insurance providers rate the cost of their policies by such factors.

Honestly, I assume you read my earlier post about having a tank that is in the process of exploding on me. The center front back distance has bowed by about 3/16" of an inch and all but keeps me up at night worrying. Having the extra strength will if nothing else help me sleep a bit sounder. Certainly stronger is better?

Also, I think that the notch fingers are removable/adjustable so I can if it makes sense remove them from the equation(s).

What you're saying regarding water backing up makes sense, so I imagine that issue will serve in my case to also throttle back the maximum productive return rate I should run at as well.

I do appreciate all the good advise here and from yourself and will do what I can to meet the requirements of this system as physically possible.

Two quick questions on the diagram:
1) You list the horizontal distances between pipes (6 not 3 I notice...). Is that for completeness in your diagram or does it matter? I would have guessed it does not matter.
2) My Overflow box was originally going to be 10" high, but I requested 12" because of overflow fear (my OCD kicking in). How does that affect the schematic you have listed above?

Thank you in advance.

 

[uncleof6]

Thank you for the explanation and this diagram. It, along with your wisdom will be of great help. In defense of the builder, he specified that hole size based on the output of my return pump, which I am looking to replace with one of those higher output lower power DC numbers. He bumped it up as I requested as I caught him before the tempering.

He explained one or two things regarding the tempering. First he stated that cutting glass, to some extent weakens it so they temper it after. The tempering he tells me can increase the glass strength by a factor of 6. Further he tells me that the insurance providers rate the cost of their policies by such factors.

Honestly, I assume you read my earlier post about having a tank that is in the process of exploding on me. The center front back distance has bowed by about 3/16" of an inch and all but keeps me up at night worrying. Having the extra strength will if nothing else help me sleep a bit sounder. Certainly stronger is better?

Also, I think that the notch fingers are removable/adjustable so I can if it makes sense remove them from the equation(s).

What you're saying regarding water backing up makes sense, so I imagine that issue will serve in my case to also throttle back the maximum productive return rate I should run at as well.

I do appreciate all the good advise here and from yourself and will do what I can to meet the requirements of this system as physically possible.

Well, they are tank builders, so am I, but I am fortunate: I have the fluid dynamics (physics) background that tank manufacturers don't have, or they would have changed the way they did things many years ago. They obviously don't know (as was mentioned before) anything about the system you are planning to use, and the C2C was "invented" or made mainstream by Anthony Calfo, IIRC, and it was very explicit. They steered you to what they wanted, not what you wanted. Hey I am not trying to fight with you here at all either. But when you order a custom tank, you need to know more than the builder does in many many cases...

I know you got a rush on here, that is too bad, because it takes a long time to plan and execute a custom system. It is all spilt milk, maybe lessons learned. So we try to work with what you got...

 

[hbash]

If I knew better about the c2c I would have asked them to go that way before the fact and indeed slow and steady wins the race and I am and was in a hurry to avoid a catastrophe.

Look, in business folks want to make money. That's a given. But they are honorable folks that stand behind their work and business. Had I requested the full monti of c2c, I am sure they would have made the back that way.

However, here we are and I'm hanging on for the ride...

I appreciate that you and the "gang" are here to offer to fill my obvious lack of wisdom on this to help me to make the best things. This is kind and generous and certainly if anyone has any software questions...

 

[uncleof6]

Thank you for the explanation and this diagram. It, along with your wisdom will be of great help. In defense of the builder, he specified that hole size based on the output of my return pump, which I am looking to replace with one of those higher output lower power DC numbers. He bumped it up as I requested as I caught him before the tempering.

He explained one or two things regarding the tempering. First he stated that cutting glass, to some extent weakens it so they temper it after. The tempering he tells me can increase the glass strength by a factor of 6. Further he tells me that the insurance providers rate the cost of their policies by such factors.

Honestly, I assume you read my earlier post about having a tank that is in the process of exploding on me. The center front back distance has bowed by about 3/16" of an inch and all but keeps me up at night worrying. Having the extra strength will if nothing else help me sleep a bit sounder. Certainly stronger is better?

Also, I think that the notch fingers are removable/adjustable so I can if it makes sense remove them from the equation(s).

What you're saying regarding water backing up makes sense, so I imagine that issue will serve in my case to also throttle back the maximum productive return rate I should run at as well.

I do appreciate all the good advise here and from yourself and will do what I can to meet the requirements of this system as physically possible.

Two quick questions on the diagram:
1) You list the horizontal distances between pipes (6 not 3 I notice...). Is that for completeness in your diagram or does it matter? I would have guessed it does not matter.
2) My Overflow box was originally going to be 10" high, but I requested 12" because of overflow fear (my OCD kicking in). How does that affect the schematic you have listed above?

Thank you in advance.

Well that is the wrong diagram if that helps at all... you have some time before you really need to know (I think) so tomorrow I will work something up for you, but it is going to be close to the above. That diagram is the one for internal/external system... sorry it has been a long day, and even college students act like children at times....

Depth of the overflow is irrelevant, if that helps. Once setup and adjusted, this system is super reliable (200+ of them most of them converted from other drain systems.)

 

[hbash]

Time

Time

Yes I have time. I ordered the tank about two weeks ago so I don't expect I'll need to have the details pinned down for a good 4-5 weeks with a bit to spare.

Even after the tank shows up I have to schedule a crew of folks to do the dance removing the current occupants and old tank and carrying the new tank down a flight of stairs which will take a few days more I expect to coordinate.

Other than the replacing of the Quiet One pump, I have loads of pipes and fittings. If you don't know the place, US Plastics has a great inventory of parts. I usually overbuy to make sure I will have what I need. For example getting that 3/8" threaded by 1/4" John Guest fitting was not easily found but they had them. Check their part number 58330. It says the threaded part is 1/8" but it is some weird classification as it is indeed the 3/8" threaded male.

 

[uncleof6]

Yes I have time. I ordered the tank about two weeks ago so I don't expect I'll need to have the details pinned down for a good 4-5 weeks with a bit to spare.

Even after the tank shows up I have to schedule a crew of folks to do the dance removing the current occupants and old tank and carrying the new tank down a flight of stairs which will take a few days more I expect to coordinate.

Other than the replacing of the Quiet One pump, I have loads of pipes and fittings. If you don't know the place, US Plastics has a great inventory of parts. I usually overbuy to make sure I will have what I need. For example getting that 3/8" threaded by 1/4" John Guest fitting was not easily found but they had them. Check their part number 58330. It says the threaded part is 1/8" but it is some weird classification as it is indeed the 3/8" threaded male.

The 58330 fitting is listed as 1/4" tube X 1/8" NPTF (NPTF tapered threads, as opposed to NPT tapered threads; 1/8" tapered threads are larger than 3/8" actually, the 1/8" is the inside diameter of the pipe that uses threads that size... The NPTF are "dryseal" threads, that seal by partially crushing the threads... this is not the fitting you want. You would also need an NPTF tap or face leaking threads. The fitting you actually want is here:

http://www.h2odistributors.com/pi010823s.asp

The part numbers will not match USP's numbers. It is MPT (Male Pipe Thread which is NPT)

I have not found the need to go larger than 1/4" NPT however, in this application, unless you are prone to bashing things around...

 

[hbash]

I picked up a 3/8 tap at Home Depot and got the fitting to screw onto the pvc cap. It was tight, but I did get it to screw on. But, I'll look at that part and tap it to another cap. (That site as a 20.00 minimum. I'll have to see what else they have that I "need").

Thanks for the URL.

 

[uncleof6]

I picked up a 3/8 tap at Home Depot and got the fitting to screw onto the pvc cap. It was tight, but I did get it to screw on. But, I'll look at that part and tap it to another cap. (That site as a 20.00 minimum. I'll have to see what else they have that I "need").

Thanks for the URL.

What kind of 3/8" tap? A 1/8" NPT tap uses an 11/32" drill bit... (just shy of 3/8") a 3/8" NPT uses a 37/64" or 9/16" drill bit...

A 3/8" x 16 NC tap uses a 5/16" drill bit, and 3/8" x 24 NF tap uses a Q drill bit (very close to the size used for a 1/8" NPT tap...)

If you used a 9/16" bit, and a 3/8" NPT tap, and the fitting was that close, then the part you have is not a 58330 fitting....

So there is a mistake somewhere in the mix....you do need some tubing and the quality difference from what you get from HD or the like is significant...

 

[hbash]

I used a 3/8" tap from HD that came with a drill bit. It definitely was tight to screw the US Plastics 58330 fitting to the resulting thread, so I think we're in agreement that the fitting was not the right one.

I ordered the item you pointed me at from H2O (10 business days for the part?).

 

[Bjanzen]

I use McMaster Carr for a lot of specialized tools and parts.......they have always been 2 day delivery for me. Just something to keep in mind should you need anything else

 

[uncleof6]

I used a 3/8" tap from HD that came with a drill bit. It definitely was tight to screw the US Plastics 58330 fitting to the resulting thread, so I think we're in agreement that the fitting was not the right one.

I ordered the item you pointed me at from H2O (10 business days for the part?).

Yeah 10 days, but getting the right part is more important, because if you get the wrong part in 2 days, add hassle, another phone call, another 2 days etc....

Is this the tap and drill set you purchased at HD? If it is, it is the wrong tap, wrong drill bit. HD does not sell a 3/8" NPT (National Pipe Thread) tap and drill bit set...and there is more on the website, than is actually in most of the stores. It is even very difficult to find a 3/8" NPT tap at Home Depot...1/4" NPT tap they usually have (hiding somewhere, often up by the registers.) If you did get a 3/8" NPT tap and drill bit combo, I want the part number!!! Be good to have around...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Irwin-3-8-16-Tap-Drill-Combo-Pack-80238/100068845?N=5yc1vZc22s

It is a 3/8" x 16 NC (National Course) Bolt thread tap...

These are the tools I use to install 1/4" x 1/4" NPT JG fittings (1.5" pipe,) the heft is hardly needed for pvc, but I don't have threaded 1/4" iron pipe laying around... :

Also, while I am thinking about it, the centerline of the elbows should be around 2 3/8" below the top of the weir (the bottom of the channel between the fingers.) This will put the top of the upturned elbow even with the weir. Since you have 1.5" above that point, you could move the elbows up a bit, or down...you have an excessive amount of room to play with.

 

[hbash]

That link to the HD tap "looks" like the package I picked up there. Is that the one to get or is that the one that I got that is not what I need?

 

[uncleof6]

That link to the HD tap "looks" like the package I picked up there. Is that the one to get or is that the one that I got that is not what I need?

That is the one that you got, that you did not need. It is for 3/8 x 16 NC Machine Threads (Bolts etc.) Throw it in your tool box however, 3/8" x 16 NC is very common for automotive uses. 3/8" NPT is very different, like the one in the image I posted, just bigger. You probably won't find a 3/8" NPT tap at Home Depot, you may have to go to Sears or somewhere with a very large selection of tools...

The fitting you have is most likely the 58330, so if you wish to use it, you will need to source a 1/8" NPTF tap...probably a very special order as it is very uncommon.

 

[Bjanzen]

Would this be right??


http://www.mcmaster.com/#2525A213

 

[Bjanzen]

Sorry..... Can't get a good hyperlink but that is the website and the part number...... I think it is right. Uncleof6 please verify

 

[uncleof6]

Sorry..... Can't get a good hyperlink but that is the website and the part number...... I think it is right. Uncleof6 please verify

For the fitting hbash has, that would be the correct tap. However, remember, this is not the type of fitting one should use. It seals by crushing the threads....in a pvc cap, there are not many threads...

Should have figured MC would have that tap


The link is fine.