Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Bryan47]

I have been trying to find an answer to this and I am assuming either way would work but I heard from some people if I am using 1' Bulkheads which I am, then I should just use 1" pipe for the down piping and everything else. However the original bean animal diagram shows him using a 1" to 1.5" converter and using 1.5" piping. The overflow is only for a 40Breeder and won't require huge gph turnover.

1.) Does it matter which size piping I use with 1" bulkheads; 1" or 1.5"?

2.) What will be the difference between using 1" vs 1.5"?

Thank you!

 

[uncleof6]

I have been trying to find an answer to this and I am assuming either way would work but I heard from some people if I am using 1' Bulkheads which I am, then I should just use 1" pipe for the down piping and everything else. However the original bean animal diagram shows him using a 1" to 1.5" converter and using 1.5" piping. The overflow is only for a 40Breeder and won't require huge gph turnover.

1.) Does it matter which size piping I use with 1" bulkheads; 1" or 1.5"?

2.) What will be the difference between using 1" vs 1.5"?

Thank you!

Yes, it does matter based on your target flow rate... ...you do have a target flow rate in gph yes? It also can depend on the length of the drop. There are a lot of folks out there giving advice on this drain system based on hearsay, and nothing more...

The flow limiter is the bulkhead size, based on the "free fall" head height, e.g. without pipe. Adding pipe inserts the friction loss into the mix, and the larger the pipe size the less the friction loss will be.

Just using 24" drop for instance (numbers are memorized,) the "free fall flow" would be a theoretical 1669gph. In 1" pipe, 1200gph would not be unexpected. In 1.5" pipe ~1500gph could be expected.

That said, the larger the pipe size, the harder it will be for growth or other "FOD" to reduce the drains flow capacity. As designed used 1" bulkheads, and 1.5" pipe. The system works fine over a very wide bandwidth of flows, as designed.

I find it hard to believe you have not found this information in reading. It is posted in this thread and other threads hundreds of times, due to repetitive identical questions. The answer is not going to change, no matter how many times it gets asked.

 

[ChrisQ]

man uncle, i'm going need some help, this thread has stayed a open tab for months along with beans. But i still know not what i'm doing. It started out a couple months ago when my current frag was leaking, i started to have my new BA frag tank built, long story short, came home one day to find the side panel finally gave way and had to toss everything into the sump, lost many sps and chalices.


so anyway, new tank arrives and bam! family emergency

So 100 or 2 trips to lowes to keep returning plumbing and buy more with the more i learn here its time to lay it all out with pics, i just hope i'm close.

I'll get these pictures of the tank and all the plumbing i've got so far.

Thanks guys in advance, hope this made a little sense (Not very many things do when you haven't slept in 2-3 days)

 

[ChrisQ]

Pictures

Tank 60 x 20 x 17

I'll measure the box for you.

1 1/2'' bulkheads with 1 1/2'' drain pipes
No returns drilled yet :headwally:
Jebao DC -12000 return

Since my bulkheads are thread/thread i was planning on these adapters until i started catching onto the elbows should be 3/4'' off the bottom of the overflow box.

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This is where its sits now, all 1 1/2'' still need the john guest and another true union, i know all the valves are not needed but hey..

I'm sorry this stuff all seems to fly over my head so easily right now (i do read your post and try and pay attention)

with having so much on my plate right now i would leave this alone for awhile but i'm losing my long collected critters

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if your confused with what my question is, i guess i need some guidance.
Am i going to have to buy new slip bulkheads?

 

[sleepydoc]

The elbows don't have to be ¾" off the bottom of the overflow; higher will work as well.

Bean's original design had teeth on the elbow with the edge about ¼" above the floor of the overflow, IIRC. He later removed the teeth and moved the edge further up to reduce any restriction to flow. The main problem with having them further up is it gives more room for critters to get underneath and in the overflow.

 

[ChrisQ]

The elbows don't have to be ¾" off the bottom of the overflow; higher will work as well.

Bean's original design had teeth on the elbow with the edge about ¼" above the floor of the overflow, IIRC. He later removed the teeth and moved the edge further up to reduce any restriction to flow. The main problem with having them further up is it gives more room for critters to get underneath and in the overflow.

That's a relief, so i can go back and re-buy those adapters and use my thread/thread bulkheads.

 

[uncleof6]

Threads external to the box, are not a good idea. They are always a leak risk, and it is better to use slip/socket fittings for external plumbing. You will never take it apart once it is up and running so threads are pretty much a waste.

You may also want to rethink the overflow portion of the box. You have little surface skimming with a 'short box' to begin with, and the teeth make smaller by a good two thirds from what I see. Read the side bar on bean's website for a little more insight into weir design. Teeth channel the flow, and raise the water level higher at any given flow rate. This reduces the surface skimming/renewal which is a very important aspect of marine systems. Teeth also create noise, (due to channeling) which is counter productive when trying to build a "silent system."

 

[ChrisQ]

this is what i was afraid of

Paid a bunch of $$ for a custom tank with him aware i know nothing of plumbing yet.
I was not involved in the overflow weir design, is there something wrong with it?
Do you need some measurements or more pics?

The thing is, this tank was built as a emergency replacement, all i had to do was choose between BA and herbie after reading bean's page for a couple of days i went with BA.
but its starting to feel like i need a major in fluid dynamics and i really don't want that

I just want a safe home for my fish and coral again.

So the bulkheads... i'm back to ordering 3 more 1 1/2'' slip/slip? because threaded is too much of a risk?

it sounds like i may have a problem with my overflow box, if you need more pics just let me know. the box measures (inside) 8.25 from bottom of teeth 27.25 x 5

Thank you so much for the help

 

[julie180]

**** poor planning has left me with a 220 external overflow with 3 1" bottom bulkheads for drains and no room in the box for elbows. The overflow box is 24" long 8" deep and 4" from the back of the tank.

I would like to know if its possible to do a bean animal and what would be the best way to achieve it. Pictures would be very helpful as I am challenged when it comes to translating words into visions.

Thanks in advance.

PS, I will be doing a 150 basement sump almost directly under the tank

 

[Mrramsey]

**** poor planning has left me with a 220 external overflow with 3 1" bottom bulkheads for drains and no room in the box for elbows. The overflow box is 24" long 8" deep and 4" from the back of the tank.

I would like to know if its possible to do a bean animal and what would be the best way to achieve it. Pictures would be very helpful as I am challenged when it comes to translating words into visions.

Thanks in advance.

PS, I will be doing a 150 basement sump almost directly under the tank

Can you post a pic of what you have exactly? It might help us to better understand.

 

[uncleof6]

**** poor planning has left me with a 220 external overflow with 3 1" bottom bulkheads for drains and no room in the box for elbows. The overflow box is 24" long 8" deep and 4" from the back of the tank.

I would like to know if its possible to do a bean animal and what would be the best way to achieve it. Pictures would be very helpful as I am challenged when it comes to translating words into visions.

Thanks in advance.

PS, I will be doing a 150 basement sump almost directly under the tank

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I really don't see where the problem is. You have 24" of length, which in the grand scheme of things is really too short for a 200+ gallon tank, but it is not the end of the world. You have 8" of depth, which should be more than adeguate in that department. You have 4" front to back which is also adequate.

Use 1.5" pipe on the 1" bulkheads, to reduce the friction loss from the long drop.

Like this:

Or are the holes too close together?

 

[julie180]

Yes, holes are to close together.

Can I do a straight short section for the siphon, put a cap on a straight section and cut out a section of the pipe for the durso drain and do a taller straight for the emergency?

Another thought, if I can go straight for the siphon and the emergency, I might be able to fit an elbow for the durso. I will have to pick up parts tomorrow and try it.

 

[woodnaquanut]

From the pic above (thanks Uncle), I see no reason why the left drain (emergency) needs the tee. It could be your middle drain, just straight pipe.

For the other two, just turn the elbows opposite directions. One facing left, one right. Just guessing here because we have NO PICTURES!

 

[julie180]

Thanks woodnaquanut. Because the tank is already in place against the wall, pictures are impossible to get. I now realize that was not a good idea for plumbing, but I have no interest in removing the 20+ shims that it took to get the think level. Nothing like one floor joist, in the middle, of course that is higher.

I'm just going to have to play with it and make it work!

 

[julie180]

How do I determine the height of the siphon and the open channel standpipes?

 

[uncleof6]

Top of the elbows generally should wind up around an 1" below the top of the weir, (the part the water goes over to get into the overflow. Dry emergency can be a straight pipe, but would not change the configuration of the other two.

To be honest with you, the drain system is such a critical system, that it would very much not be a waste of time to get in behind that tank, and do what it takes to get this working, up to and including rebuilding the box. Maybe get the floor fixed in the process.

 

[pdiehm]

How big of a gap should I have between the bottom of the elbow to the floor of the overflow box. Right now, there's ~5/16". Is that too close?

 

[sleepydoc]

It depends on the flow and the size of the elbow, but in general closer to ¾" is better.

+1 to Uncle's comments

 

[pdiehm]

1.25 x .75 reduced elbow. Straight 1" gives me .75"

The reason I ask is I thought Bean's orginal design had 1/4" to the box floor. It's not a big deal to switch out the elbows and put in the 1" 90's.

 

[julie180]

For the open channel, is there a problem with using a street 90 and regular 90 then drilling into the top of them. I would like to keep everything below the overflow top and can't do that with a tee.

Thanks for all the help