Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
uncleof6
Active member
Go through your implementation inch by inch, check each item against the "instructions" or design criteria, on Bean's website. There is a problem with the system, and it is in the implementation. There is no need to change the heights of any of the pipes.
The open channel is taking most of the flow, and the siphon is failing to purge the air from the line. It is, by physics, impossible to drain more than you put in. There is an interaction between the siphon and open channel, and a problem with one, will affect the operation of the other.
The list of probable errors is very short, and easily found on bean's website, and the first page of the original iteration of this thread, by following the design criteria. I have two choices: spoon feed it to you, or suggest you do a little homework, to solve the problem. I write the same things over and over again, so I don't believe asking you to do some homework is at all unreasonable. By reading through the information carefully, you will learn more than you would if I spoon feed it to you.
woodnaquanut
Active member
Where is the gurgling coming from? The siphon or the open channel?
Perhaps open the valve some or trying it closed a bit more.
What's your return pump? Pipe sizes for drains and return?
Look at the second picture in post #7485. See anything missing?
gurgling is coming from both the open and siphon line.
the return pump is a waveline dc10000ii, rated for 2800 per hr. its traveling about 4-5ft of head and in my testing i was running it about 3/4 full power.
the drain lines are 1.5 inch
return goes from 1.25 to 1.5 inch
thanks for the help guys.
Today, I plan to do the following:
-redo my emergency standpipe. I originally plumbed it w the 90 facing down. In my testing I raised it above the water line to temp fix it until i go to lowes today.
-cut my drain lines down in the sump now that I know what my operating water level is.
Question: I'm having a hard time locally finding the john guest fittings described on bean animals site. I drilled a hole in the cap in the meantime. Any other options that work?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
thanks pdiehm. I found something that will work. Now i need to find a large enough drill bit and tap to tread the npt side.
I went home at lunch and did the following:
-redid my emergency drain plumbing in the external overflow
-made sure all my caps we're teflon taped and tightened so no air is introduced into the emergency and siphon pipes
-cut down the size of drain lines so they're less than an inch submerged. Unfortunately, the water level was too low so my siphon line is out of the water. I'll fix this when i get home after work.
I'm still getting lots of air trapped in the openchannel drain. I'm not sure if its because the siphon drain is too short or too much water from the return.
I've attached some pics. Thoughts are welcomed. Thx.
I went home at lunch and did the following:
-redid my emergency drain plumbing in the external overflow
-made sure all my caps we're teflon taped and tightened so no air is introduced into the emergency and siphon pipes
-cut down the size of drain lines so they're less than an inch submerged. Unfortunately, the water level was too low so my siphon line is out of the water. I'll fix this when i get home after work.
I'm still getting lots of air trapped in the openchannel drain. I'm not sure if its because the siphon drain is too short or too much water from the return.
I've attached some pics. Thoughts are welcomed. Thx.
Attachments
Open your siphon valve some. You want the waterline in your overflow box to settle at somewhere near halfway on the horizontal part of siphon elbow. You have too much water running thru your openchannel. You want it waterfalling down along the inside walls of the openchannel not tumbling and mixing with air on the way down.
Until you get that Watts fitting and route the attached tubing to the appropriate spot, the setup is not going to start properly when you have a power outage or turn off the return pump for feedings or maintenance.
A couple of fingers below the openchannel drain pipe in your sump's water should tell you if there is a slow gentle flow of water out of that pipe. Adjust the siphon valve to achieve that and the halfway mark on the on the topend siphon elbow.
Get the end of that siphon drain pipe near one inch below waterline in the sump as you mentioned. That will help tuning everything to a "set-it-and-forget-it" state that is dead silent. It currently must be louder then **** with the end out of the water like it is.
BTW, I use my 1/8" NPT pipe tap more than any other tap I own. All around the house.
Until you get that Watts fitting and route the attached tubing to the appropriate spot, the setup is not going to start properly when you have a power outage or turn off the return pump for feedings or maintenance.
A couple of fingers below the openchannel drain pipe in your sump's water should tell you if there is a slow gentle flow of water out of that pipe. Adjust the siphon valve to achieve that and the halfway mark on the on the topend siphon elbow.
Get the end of that siphon drain pipe near one inch below waterline in the sump as you mentioned. That will help tuning everything to a "set-it-and-forget-it" state that is dead silent. It currently must be louder then **** with the end out of the water like it is.
BTW, I use my 1/8" NPT pipe tap more than any other tap I own. All around the house.
thx garyinco.
question: Regarding, "Until you get that Watts fitting and route the attached tubing to the appropriate spot, " what do you mean by "appropriate spot? I have the watt fitting, just need to buy a larger drill bit and pipe tap. I looked through the tool area in lowes and didn't find the tap tool but am going to check again shortly.
I have a number of used taps I get years ago used from Boeing. If you have a Harbor Freight Tools store in your area you can buy a set of many tap sizes for cheap. They will work.
Once you install the watts fitting you put a short piece of RO type tubing on the top end of the fitting. You loop that around 180 degrees and position the end where it is slightly above the horizontal part of your returns elbow. Look at pictures.
What that accomplishes is 1)when everything's up and running it lets a bit of air into your openchannel line and and keeps it from trying to establish another full siphon in addition to the one you actually want in your siphon line and 2)on startup before your siphon line creates its true full siphon and the overflow water level starts rising higher than your goal it lets the openchannel line go into a temporary full siphon mode. That helps prevent disasters. And as soon as the full siphon line gets going like its supposed to - the water level in the overflow will start dropping back down to the target level. When it gets there the end of the the little RO tubing is back exposed to air and it keeps the openchannel back in an "open channel" mode and keeps it from sucking in more water than you want.
Its normal upon startup for the openchannel to go into a full siphon mode a few times and the overflows level goes up while the siphonchannel gets fully going. When the siphon channel gets fully purged of air everything stablizes and the setup gets quiet and the openchannel stays a true openchannel slowly flowing down the inside of its pipe walls.
Once you install the watts fitting you put a short piece of RO type tubing on the top end of the fitting. You loop that around 180 degrees and position the end where it is slightly above the horizontal part of your returns elbow. Look at pictures.
What that accomplishes is 1)when everything's up and running it lets a bit of air into your openchannel line and and keeps it from trying to establish another full siphon in addition to the one you actually want in your siphon line and 2)on startup before your siphon line creates its true full siphon and the overflow water level starts rising higher than your goal it lets the openchannel line go into a temporary full siphon mode. That helps prevent disasters. And as soon as the full siphon line gets going like its supposed to - the water level in the overflow will start dropping back down to the target level. When it gets there the end of the the little RO tubing is back exposed to air and it keeps the openchannel back in an "open channel" mode and keeps it from sucking in more water than you want.
Its normal upon startup for the openchannel to go into a full siphon mode a few times and the overflows level goes up while the siphonchannel gets fully going. When the siphon channel gets fully purged of air everything stablizes and the setup gets quiet and the openchannel stays a true openchannel slowly flowing down the inside of its pipe walls.
uncleof6
Active member
Not true. The air ventline has nothing to do with the startup of the system. It can prevent the system from starting if the air vent line inlet is too low in the overflow, however the absence of said vent line has no affect on the system startup.
uncleof6
Active member
Also not true. The open channel should never go to full siphon, unless the main siphon and dry emergency both become inoperable. If the open channel goes to siphon at any other time, you have the system set up wrong. It also will not operate properly.
Folks need to read the first page of this thread (from way back when) or the article from Bean's website, or the 100 or so posts I have made concerning the startup order, proper set up, and what happens in a normal startup, in order to understand how the system operates—and the system's startup characteristics. If you have read it, it needs to be read again, and again, until it is fully understood.
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OK, whatever you say. I was trying to help the guy understand what his goal is.
uncleof6
Active member
You should be using a non-hardening thread sealant on all PVC threaded connections. The use of tape is frowned upon, because no matter how little you use, it distorts the threads, and inhibits sealing, and can easily damage the fitting to the point it will not seal.
The problems you are having are all due to an incomplete setup, and/or incorrectly set up. Go back and read!!! Don't get your information from other posters, as indicated above, it is not always acurrate. Read the article on bean's website!! Although there is some leeway in the setup, there is only one way to set it up—if you want it to work properly.
uncleof6
Active member
Sorry, but it is what it is.
Either the information is good, or it isn't. It is extremely difficult to keep mis-information from becoming pervasive. The OP is not going to understand, if he goes the wrong direction, or has invalid information to work with. It is not personal.
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