Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[hbash]

Well I finally got my new tank up and running and am "beaning" it. Very cool. Amazingly quiet after the syphon burps out its air. It is almost there but I see re-reading some issues and details what I must need to look at to get the overflow system working just right.

First, the syphon works fine as long as I have the gate valve on the syphon (only standpipe with valve) closed enough to raise the water within the overflow but not so high as to allow the open channel to take too much of the water. If I do, it seems that the open channel wins and the syphon doesn't drain the overflow. I think from my most recent reading that this is due to the distance the return pipes are submerged and in particular if the syphon is lower in the sump then the open channel, the open channel is the "path of least resistance" and so it drains the water and not the syphon pipe. So, I will either shorten the return distance for the syphon a touch or lower the return for the open one such that it is as low or perhaps lower than the syphon within the sump.

Lastly the RO line from the open channel needs to be adjusted and I believe from what I have read here that it should end where the emergency channel upturned elbow terminates so that when that emergency standpipe kicks in to save the day, the open channel becomes a syphon and helps to get the water level back down in the overflow box.

Please confirm/adivise/reprimand.

Thanks!

 

[pdiehm]

My understanding is the airline should be ABOVE the Emergency. At startup the emergency should kick in.

I've read the whole thread...don't understand 95% of it, don't remember another 3% of it.

 

[hbash]

My understanding is the airline should be ABOVE the Emergency. At startup the emergency should kick in.

I've read the whole thread...don't understand 95% of it, don't remember another 3% of it.

How far above the emergency? Just above or 1/4" or 1/2" or ...


Thanks.

 

[Mrramsey]

How far above the emergency? Just above or 1/4" or 1/2" or ...


Thanks.

Mine is just about 1/4". Not critical just lower than the flood point.
Also the drain lines to the sump should be no more than a half an inch below the water surface.

 

[sleepydoc]

You're talking about the ¼" tubing going into the open channel standpipe, correct? Think about how the system is set up and the backup/safety systems:

• The full siphon standpipe handles majority of the flow
• The open channel functions as a durso, handling the flow that the full siphon can't. The air intake allows it to handle a fairly wide range of flows before making noise, making the system easy to adjust.
  
  If the air intake to the open channel standpipe becomes occluded, it no longer functions as a durso and the lack of an air intake forces it into full siphon mode. This dramatically increases the capacity and drops the water level in short order. It also starts 'flushing,' giving an audible warning that something is amiss.​
• The dry standpipe is a failsafe backup if the first two fail or are unable to handle the flow.

He doesn't specifically state the height of the airline tubing in his description, but he does describe the dry channel kicking in first, then the tubing becoming occluded if the dry channel is unable to handle the flow.

I would argue that it should be the reverse. One of the benefits of the dry channel is that it is just that - dry. If there is no water in it, there is virtually no opportunity for it to become occluded. If you have the dry standpipe kick in before the airline occludes, it is conceivable that when the dry standpipe becomes occluded enough to raise the water level and occlude it, the open channel stand pipe will also have enough of a blockage to cause an issue.

If you configure it in the reverse, so that the opening of the tubing is just below dry standpipe opening, it will occlude and start flushing the open channel pipe first, and the dry standpipe would kick in only if that was unable to handle the flow.

The chances of the above situation happening are admittedly quite remote, but it strikes me as an easy way to maximize the safety of the system.

 

[goncharkina]

I have been using Aqueon Proflex sump, it is very quiet and have so many options for bubble diffusing, the only problem I had was my skimmer not fitting well in the last chamber

 

[Mrramsey]

I have been using Aqueon Proflex sump, it is very quiet and have so many options for bubble diffusing, the only problem I had was my skimmer not fitting well in the last chamber

Off topic for this thread. This thread is for the discussion of the Bean Animal silent failsafe overflow drain system.

 

[uncleof6]

• The open channel functions as a durso, handling the flow that the full siphon can't. The air intake allows it to handle a fairly wide range of flows before making noise, making the system easy to adjust.
  If the air intake to the open channel standpipe becomes occluded, it no longer functions as a durso and the lack of an air intake forces it into full siphon mode. This dramatically increases the capacity and drops the water level in short order. It also starts 'flushing,' giving an audible warning that something is amiss.​

I have seen this posted a couple times now, and it is erroneous. The open channel operates the exact same way as a normal durso. Once the standpipe is 1/4 full of water, it will begin making noise. The bandwidth range for the open channel is very narrow. Topping out at the same level as any other durso: ~ 350gph. That is not a very wide bandwidth, and it is not the bandwidth discussed with the BA drain system.

The complete drain system over all, has a very wide bandwidth from around a few hundred gph (no point using it if the flow rate is below that) up to a couple thousand gph, as designed, depending on the length of the drop. The open channel air vent has nothing to do with that bandwidth, it is the siphon itself. The open channel has one primary function: system self-adjustment, to compensate for the inherent instability present in the two pipe siphon system, that consists of a siphon and dry emergency only. (The trickle of flow through the dry emergency is borrowed from Bean's system, and renders "herbie" unsafe to operate.)

The dry standpipe is a failsafe backup if the first two fail or are unable to handle the flow.

The dry emergency is a safety backup in case the main siphon becomes occluded. The open channel (tripping to siphon) is the failsafe for the system, if both the siphon and dry emergency become occluded. The open channel is the final line of defense, and if used in another way, chances are very high that the system will not start or run properly.

I would argue that it should be the reverse. One of the benefits of the dry channel is that it is just that - dry. If there is no water in it, there is virtually no opportunity for it to become occluded. If you have the dry standpipe kick in before the airline occludes, it is conceivable that when the dry standpipe becomes occluded enough to raise the water level and occlude it, the open channel stand pipe will also have enough of a blockage to cause an issue.

If you configure it in the reverse, so that the opening of the tubing is just below dry standpipe opening, it will occlude and start flushing the open channel pipe first, and the dry standpipe would kick in only if that was unable to handle the flow.

The chances of the above situation happening are admittedly quite remote, but it strikes me as an easy way to maximize the safety of the system.

Seems like it would make sense, but it is at the top of the list for causes of startup issues with BA's system. "Air vent line inlet too low in the overflow." This causes the open channel to trip into siphon mode, before the main siphon purges all the air. The "open channel is taking all the flow" complaint. There are a couple other causes, but very few, and air vent too low is up there with them.

There may be some that don't notice "issues" running the air vent line too low in the overflow, but the system is not running properly. It also short circuits the redundant failsafe of the air vent line, as well as preventing the head height reaching the point that all the air will be purged. A foolproof system does not exist, and probably never will, but you need to have a system that is functiong properly first.

The air vent line inlet needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency for proper operation of the system.

 

[535freak]

does it really matter how far the drains go into the sump?

 

[woodnaquanut]

does it really matter how far the drains go into the sump?

Yes.

 

[535freak]

I know the siphon has to be under the water level, but does it matter how far?

 

[woodnaquanut]

Still yes.

 

[535freak]

How far?

 

[Aqua Creations]

Hey, Great job on the overflow. I love the clean neat look!!

 

[woodnaquanut]

How far?

Typically, one inch or less below the normal running level of the sump.

 

[jonwright]

sooooo....I was thinking of an adjustable baffle in the sump instead of messing around with a skimmer stand. I'd take it this is why you'd want at least your intake section height to be static.

 

[sleepydoc]

I have seen this posted a couple times now, and it is erroneous. The open channel operates the exact same way as a normal durso. Once the standpipe is 1/4 full of water, it will begin making noise. The bandwidth range for the open channel is very narrow. Topping out at the same level as any other durso: ~ 350gph. That is not a very wide bandwidth, and it is not the bandwidth discussed with the BA drain system.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently; by 'bandwidth,' I mean the range of flows over which the system runs silently once the full siphon standpipe valve has been set, not the entire range of flows over which you can get a Bean system to function as designed. Essentially, how precisely you need to adjust the siphon valve and ultimately how often will you need to tweak the system.

Seems like it would make sense, but it is at the top of the list for causes of startup issues with BA's system. "Air vent line inlet too low in the overflow." This causes the open channel to trip into siphon mode, before the main siphon purges all the air. The "open channel is taking all the flow" complaint. There are a couple other causes, but very few, and air vent too low is up there with them.
...
The air vent line inlet needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency for proper operation of the system.

You have more experience with these systems than I do, so I definitely defer to your experience, but does it not work to have both the durso 'siphon trip' tubing and dry standpipe openings high enough such that the tubing is lower than the dry standpipe but still does not engage during startup? i.e. is it possible for the full siphon to adequately purge without using the dry standpipe if the durso does not flip over to a full siphon?

 

[sleepydoc]

sooooo....I was thinking of an adjustable baffle in the sump instead of messing around with a skimmer stand. I'd take it this is why you'd want at least your intake section height to be static.

Off topic for the Bean thread - start a new thread and as your question there.

 

[uncleof6]

Perhaps I should have worded it differently; by 'bandwidth,' I mean the range of flows over which the system runs silently once the full siphon standpipe valve has been set, not the entire range of flows over which you can get a Bean system to function as designed. Essentially, how precisely you need to adjust the siphon valve and ultimately how often will you need to tweak the system.

The bandwidth for "silent running" is from 0 to ~350gph above the flow rate set by the valve on the siphon. E.G. The silent bandwidth of the open channel is from 0 to ~ 350 gph. That is a very narrow bandwidth, and only with a 1.5" bulkhead, and 1.5" pipe. With a 1" bulkhead, and 1" pipe, that bandwidth drops to 0 - ~50gph or so. An even narrower bandwidth. In other words, since the bandwidth "of silence" for the open channel is narrow, the object is to keep the flow through the open channel low, below the laminar flow rate (1/4 full of water.) The open channel will not be silent, unless within the laminar flow rate. The open channel does not silence the system. It is there to allow the system to "self-adjuest." If the flow rate increases past the laminar flow rate for the open channel, the system is NOT going to be silent.

Also, because the system is self-adjusting, it is set it and forget it. It does not need to be tweaked... ...provided it is adjusted properly in the first place.

You have more experience with these systems than I do, so I definitely defer to your experience, but does it not work to have both the durso 'siphon trip' tubing and dry standpipe openings high enough such that the tubing is lower than the dry standpipe but still does not engage during startup? i.e. is it possible for the full siphon to adequately purge without using the dry standpipe if the durso does not flip over to a full siphon?

Same answer. Build it as designed, and run it the way it is intended to run. Any other way, and all bets are off.

 

[sleepydoc]

The bandwidth for "silent running" is from 0 to ~350gph above the flow rate set by the valve on the siphon. E.G. The silent bandwidth of the open channel is from 0 to ~ 350 gph. That is a very narrow bandwidth, and only with a 1.5" bulkhead, and 1.5" pipe. With a 1" bulkhead, and 1" pipe, that bandwidth drops to 0 - ~50gph or so. An even narrower bandwidth. In other words, since the bandwidth "of silence" for the open channel is narrow, the object is to keep the flow through the open channel low, below the laminar flow rate (1/4 full of water.) The open channel will not be silent, unless within the laminar flow rate. The open channel does not silence the system. It is there to allow the system to "self-adjuest." If the flow rate increases past the laminar flow rate for the open channel, the system is NOT going to be silent.

Also, because the system is self-adjusting, it is set it and forget it. It does not need to be tweaked... ...provided it is adjusted properly in the first place.

Maybe I'm just more of a glass-half-full kind of guy, but I consider that to be a pretty wide bandwidth, at least when you compare to the options out there for silent systems. A 1.5" durso may be able to handle 350 gph, but since most people are running them at the top of their capacity, their functional silent bandwidth ends up being much smaller (probably on the order of 50 gph) A Herbie with a dry backup has an equally small or even smaller bandwidth. (A wet herbie is simply a Bean with the safety of a dry standpipe removed, so I won't get into that.)

Since the Bean system allows you to have the set point at the bottom of the flow range for the durso, you can use close to the entire capacity for self adjustment as you said; a major improvement over the standard durso & Herbie configurations.

Same answer. Build it as designed, and run it the way it is intended to run. Any other way, and all bets are off.

Fair enough :lol: my question was really "is it possible to improve the design?"