Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[thejuggernaut]

Read what I made bold. I was under the impression that the air line, or in this case, the top part of the p-trap was supposed to be above the emergency. At least that has been my understanding.

I have read that as well, but I can see benefits to both situations. Putting it below the emergency will make it kick in sooner, maybe keeping the emergency from being used at all. In that setup, the emergency would probably only see water on start up or if both the siphon and OC were clogged. The only benefit I can see of having it go down the emergency first would be that it will make noise to warn you that the siphon is clogged. Although I believe that if your OC is constantly starting a siphon and purging, then you will hear it anyways.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well ideally you want the airline to be at the maximum desired level of the water in the DT, I believe, for the standard BA setup.

For the version with the pipes in an external box, not matter how that is done, I believe the preferred method is to strap it to the top of the emergency drain (facing down) so the the OC kicks in, or at least starts to, before the emergency kicks in. The idea being that the E is the 3rd drain to engage (in full) if necessary. To the OC converts (or starts to convert) to a siphon when the water level gets to the point of reaching the E drain.

Regardless, your setup appears to be working pretty well so it's really kind of nit-picking I guess.

 

[sleepydoc]

Read what I made bold. I was under the impression that the air line, or in this case, the top part of the p-trap was supposed to be above the emergency. At least that has been my understanding.

Yes, that is how it was originally designed. With the original design, as the water level rises the following happen:

1. Siphon channel kicks in (noisy d/t air)
2. Open channel kicks in
3. Emergency channel kicks in
4. Air line occludes, converting open channel from a Durso to a full, unrestricted siphon. The flow dramatically increases and rapidly empties the overflow.

On startup, the water level normally stops rising between 3 & 4. This maintains a head of pressure on the siphon channel, allowing it to purge the air bubbles. As this happens, it gets quieter and more efficient d/t the lack of air bubbles and the water level then drops below the E channel and stabilizes.

If the OC kicks over to a full siphon, it will frequently drain the overflow to the point that the siphon starts entraining air. The OC will then switch back over to a lower flow Durso once the airline is not under water, but the siphon never fully purges.

Depending on the configuration, some systems may purge air before the E channel kicks in. In the system Floyd has with the p-trap, the OC does not instantly convert over to a full siphon the way it does with Bean's original design, so having the emergency above the air inlet for the OC may work since the OC does not totally purge the overflow; I don't know for sure on this point.

 

[sleepydoc]

I've used something similar on iron pipe for gas lines, and on copper lines for my air compressor lines running through my garage. Mine was yellow, but it looked lumpy like that also. Still hasn't leaked in three years. On the canister it said it was good for PVC as well.

Haven't used that stuff, but I've seen others that are lumpy, so you may be fine.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi Uncle

Is this the right stuff?



If so should it look like this or is this a bad bunch?

No, it is the wrong stuff.

This is the right stuff:

https://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=PF-SPSB75-005

 

[uncleof6]

Read what I made bold. I was under the impression that the air line, or in this case, the top part of the p-trap was supposed to be above the emergency. At least that has been my understanding.

You are correct. The inlet to the air vent to the open channel needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency. This is what I keep talking about, people not understanding how the system is supposed to work, yet giving advice concerning it. They are free to say whatever they wish, however, saying it should be below, is absolutely wrong! It does not matter whether it is a p trap or an air vent line as the original design.

Having the air inlet below the dry emergency does not allow the system to start properly. The open channel takes too much flow, and the siphon does not purge all the air. This is at the top of the list of reasons the system does not start properly. The air inlet needs to be high enough, that during start up, the water level cannot reach the air inlet, which means it needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency, as if you are getting sufficient head height to start the system properly, water will flow in the dry emergency.

The emergency trip order is and has been all along:

If the siphon plugs --> dry emergency takes the flow.

If the open channel plugs --> dry emergency takes the flow.

If the siphon plugs, and then the dry emergency plugs (both bean and I have had this happen) --> air vent line gets occluded due to rising water level, and trips the open channel to siphon mode, that will quickly pull the water level down from the flood zone. The open channel is the last chance, drop dead fail safe.

Whenever you have an issue with this system look at the way you (collective) have it set up, and compare it to how it should be set up, and you will know exactly why it is not working.

 

[uncleof6]

Yes, that is how it was originally designed. With the original design, as the water level rises the following happen:

1. Siphon channel kicks in (noisy d/t air)
2. Open channel kicks in
3. Emergency channel kicks in
4. Air line occludes, converting open channel from a Durso to a full, unrestricted siphon. The flow dramatically increases and rapidly empties the overflow.

On startup, the water level normally stops rising between 3 & 4. This maintains a head of pressure on the siphon channel, allowing it to purge the air bubbles. As this happens, it gets quieter and more efficient d/t the lack of air bubbles and the water level then drops below the E channel and stabilizes.

If the OC kicks over to a full siphon, it will frequently drain the overflow to the point that the siphon starts entraining air. The OC will then switch back over to a lower flow Durso once the airline is not under water, but the siphon never fully purges.

Depending on the configuration, some systems may purge air before the E channel kicks in. In the system Floyd has with the p-trap, the OC does not instantly convert over to a full siphon the way it does with Bean's original design, so having the emergency above the air inlet for the OC may work since the OC does not totally purge the overflow; I don't know for sure on this point.

Not really.

Normal start up:

Water rises in the OFB, starts flowing in the siphon.
Water continues to rise, and flows into the dry emergency, while the siphon purges the air. This can take several minutes. The water level should drop close to the inlet of the siphon.

The valve is then adjusted raising the water level till water just flows in the open channel.

The open channel should never engage during start up, though there may be a small amount of flow in it, till the siphon drops the water level. If it does, the system is built wrong, and needs to be made right.

Emergency trip order is dry emergency first, and open channel drop dead last chance fail safe.

 

[thejuggernaut]

Makes sense. If the OC engages into a siphon before the siphon has a chance to purge, then it will just keep cycling. Not giving the siphon line enough head pressure to push all the air out of the line and equalizing. I tried mine today with the OC's air vent below the emergency and it still worked fine at flows ranging from about 700 all the way to 3000. It purged and equalized in about 10 seconds. Although I think it would give you trouble setting the OC air inlet lower if you set it up like the original design, with the OC and siphon at the same height. I think this is one of those instances where the rear mounted box gives you more adjustment and can run with a much wider set of perimeters. It sounds like the original system require a very precise setup to run properly. I've tried about 10 different variations in my box, and the only one I couldn't get to run was using a 1.5" pipe on the main siphon for flow less that 1000 GPH. The water didn't have enough velocity to push the air down the pipe with the gate valve so closed off.

 

[sleepydoc]

Not really.

Normal start up:

Water rises in the OFB, starts flowing in the siphon.
Water continues to rise, and flows into the dry emergency, while the siphon purges the air. This can take several minutes. The water level should drop close to the inlet of the siphon.

The valve is then adjusted raising the water level till water just flows in the open channel.

The open channel should never engage during start up, though there may be a small amount of flow in it, till the siphon drops the water level. If it does, the system is built wrong, and needs to be made right.

Emergency trip order is dry emergency first, and open channel drop dead last chance fail safe.

Thought that's what I said!

When you say the OC should never engage during startup, do you mean as an open channel with low flow, or as a full siphon? By design the system has a small amount of flow in the OC at steady state. If the water level rises to the emergency inlet, the OC must have some flow, but it should still be an open channel, not a full siphon, unless the air line is too low and gets occluded.

 

[adova]

The OC is going to start siphon if the emergency kicks in (because the air line gets occluded) from what I understand. OC air line should be right at or just above the emergency pipe. That is the whole idea - if water ever gets high enough to use emergency then OC should convert to full siphon. In my system the emergency never kicks in during normal start up.

 

[mmn]

The OC is going to start siphon if the emergency kicks in (because the air line gets occluded) from what I understand. OC air line should be right at or just above the emergency pipe. That is the whole idea - if water ever gets high enough to use emergency then OC should convert to full siphon. In my system the emergency never kicks in during normal start up.

No. If water gets high enough to flow in emergency, the oc should not convert to full siphon unless and until the water gets high enough to submerge the airline. This will only happen if the emergency is occluded.

 

[adova]

well, for me, I put the air line just above the emergency so that it will start the siphon in the OC. Why wouldn't you want the OC full siphon to occur in that instance?

 

[thejuggernaut]

I personally think that I would like the emergency line to be the last line of defense. My idea system would be Siphon fills and OC trickles under normal conditions. If siphon clogs, then OC rises and if need be triggers a siphon. Continually rising and falling until I hear it and can fix the clog. If the siphon and OC clogs, then it would rise and start flowing through the emergency. I guess it doesn't really make a difference as long as it starts properly. It might not be an option to run it that way depending on how your personal system is setup.

I may even setup my sump to where the emergency would flow into a separate box with a float switch, so that it would trigger the apex and shut off the return pump and notify me. That wouldn't be possible with the normal setup where the emergency takes on water during start up.

 

[sleepydoc]

See my and Uncle's posts above. The issue is with the startup - once the air line gets occluded, the OC converts to an unrestricted full siphon and rapidly drains the overflow. When this happens, the water level frequently drops below the full siphon inlet so it starts entraining air. If you have the air line set too low so it occludes as the water rises during startup, you end up with a cycle that never allows the siphon to fully purge the air.

During startup, you need the water level to stay up long enough for the siphon to purge all the air. If you have the air line above the emergency drain level, the water level rises to the level of the emergency drain. At that point, the E drain handles the flow and the water doesn't rise appreciably higher. At this point you have the siphon purging air, the open channel functioning as a durso, entraining air from the air line, and the emergency channel handling the excess.

Once the siphon purges all the air, it becomes more efficient and handles more flow so the water level drops. Depending on the configuration, pipe/bulkhead sizes, flows, etc, the emergency may not actually kick in before the siphon completes its startup purge, but if the OC kicks over to a full siphon before it does it will generally prevent a proper startup.

 

[thejuggernaut]

See my and Uncle's posts above. The issue is with the startup - once the air line gets occluded, the OC converts to an unrestricted full siphon and rapidly drains the overflow. When this happens, the water level frequently drops below the full siphon inlet so it starts entraining air. If you have the air line set too low so it occludes as the water rises during startup, you end up with a cycle that never allows the siphon to fully purge the air.

During startup, you need the water level to stay up long enough for the siphon to purge all the air. If you have the air line above the emergency drain level, the water level rises to the level of the emergency drain. At that point, the E drain handles the flow and the water doesn't rise appreciably higher. At this point you have the siphon purging air, the open channel functioning as a durso, entraining air from the air line, and the emergency channel handling the excess.

Once the siphon purges all the air, it becomes more efficient and handles more flow so the water level drops. Depending on the configuration, pipe/bulkhead sizes, flows, etc, the emergency may not actually kick in before the siphon completes its startup purge, but if the OC kicks over to a full siphon before it does it will generally prevent a proper startup.

I understand all that, but in my instance, my system is setup to where the emergency doesn't even see any water. The water rises about half way up the OC and the siphon purges in about 3 seconds and the water level starts to lower. It never gets near the emergency or near the OC top. But like I said, it may not be practical to set it up like that with every system.

 

[mmn]

And here we go off on another tangent...

 

[sleepydoc]

And here we go off on another tangent...

yes and no - this is all quite relevant to the Beananimal overflow system

I understand all that, but in my instance, my system is setup to where the emergency doesn't even see any water. The water rises about half way up the OC and the siphon purges in about 3 seconds and the water level starts to lower. It never gets near the emergency or near the OC top. But like I said, it may not be practical to set it up like that with every system.

In the 'standard' setup, the water will frequently rise to the level of the emergency during startup, so having the air line lower creates start up problems. If yours starts up properly, it would probably be ok, unless I'm missing something.

The normal backup sequence is:
1. Full siphon
2. Open channel
3. Dry emergency
4. Open channel converted to full siphon by occlusion of air line.

In your case it would be:
1. Full siphon
2. Open Channel
3. Open channel converted to full siphon by occlusion of air line.
4. Dry emergency

Going through the possible scenarios:
1. Siphon occlusion - open channel takes excess, converts to siphon if water level rises
2. open channel occlusion - water level rises and occludes air line. If occlusion isn't cleared or the open channel can't handle the flow with the air line occluded, the open channel kicks in.

Essentially, the dry emergency is the last line of defence rather than the open channel with the occluded air line

 

[thejuggernaut]

I agree that this isn't a tangent. Discussing variations is relevant in the fact that not all people want their systems the same way.

You are correct, and just to be clear, that wouldn't work in all instances. But because on startup, my system doesn't rise to the level to occlude the OC or to let water run down the emergency, then I could rig it up with a float switch. Because the only time the emergency would see water would be in the event of a clog of one or both of the other drain lines. Immediately shutting off the return pump, and notifying me so that I can fix it. Having the ability to monitor if any water comes down the emergency, is the only reason I can see it being a benefit over the original design.

 

[JACOXVIII]

So I have a 300 DD that I was about to set up but do not think I will be happy with the flow. So with not wanting to drill holes in the back of the Marineland. I started to sketch up this the rear glass is cut down 1.5" to act as a coast to coast over flow. the dimensions would be as close to the 300 DD 72"x 36"x27"

 

[uncleof6]

So I have a 300 DD that I was about to set up but do not think I will be happy with the flow. So with not wanting to drill holes in the back of the Marineland. I started to sketch up this the rear glass is cut down 1.5" to act as a coast to coast over flow. the dimensions would be as close to the 300 DD 72"x 36"x27"

Watch the height on the external. Insure that the external is tall enough both above the elbows and below the elbows, so there is room to "tune" the system, or you will end up with problems. Don't try to cram it all in the shortest external box possible. ~ 8" tall should work, but it depends.