Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
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crazy4reefs
New member
required clearance
required clearance
Bean, could you provide an estimate on how much clearance is required behind the tank for the fittings and the valves? I've looked up the recommended clearances from some valve manufacturers but I assume they add considerable "play" to their numbers. I'm hoping to duplicate your setup and trying to determine the minimum I would need.Thanks!
required clearance
Bean, could you provide an estimate on how much clearance is required behind the tank for the fittings and the valves? I've looked up the recommended clearances from some valve manufacturers but I assume they add considerable "play" to their numbers. I'm hoping to duplicate your setup and trying to determine the minimum I would need.Thanks!
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
If you are putting this setup against a wall, then my advice would be to place the valve for the siphon standpipe inside the stand, right above the sump. That way you don't have to worry about clearance for the valve. You can then estimate your clearance need simply by the width of plumbing itself.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I am not sure what a "durso" type overflow is. I know what durso standpipes are
I would assume you are describing a corner style overflow with (2) standpipes that go through the bottom of the tank?
You will need a 3rd "hole" somewhere to implement my design. Are you willing to drill a 3rd hole somewhere or are you simply looking to expand the width of your overflow to get better surface skimmign while keeping the durso standpipes?
biecacka
Active member
good one on the standpipes!! lol they are not corner overflows they are just 2 holes drilled about 2 feet from the side of the tank. the return pipe is ran over the tank. so im not sure if i can put a coast to coast on it. would need to drain the tank to drill it as its up against the wallswilliamson
New member
Use with surge?
Use with surge?
First of all, terrific thread! Thanks Bean for putting this together in such a concise post. The resulting thread has been a bear to read in one sitting but after many hours and I made it to page 30 of the original thread (pre-split.) I know how frustrating repeat questions can be so I made a valiant effort but the day is fading. You sure have a way of inspiring vibrant discussion!
Please accept my apologies if my questions have been previously covered.
I'd like to get some clarification on some assumptions I'm making and any recommendations you may have regarding use with a surge tank.
I'm planning on drilling a series of horizontal holes in the upper-rear of the tank and installing a narrow, full-width box inside the display and a larger box for the plumbing mounted externally.
I did notice a post from someone who wanted to run 100% of his return through a surge tank. I'm not trying anything of that scale but I did want to surge 3-5 gal periodically. There will normally be 800-1000gph flowing with the 3-5g surging anywhere from every 30 seconds to 5 minutes (rate and specific volume tuned later.) After some rough calculations, even allowing for all 5 gallons in my external box at one moment, the water height would increase about 4.8" in that outer box. The main concern, as I understand it, is to ensure the siphon remains intact. If I'm surging every 60 seconds and breaking a siphon which can take minutes to purge of air there's little point to siphoning the first place, so this is key.
My thought was to place the secondary standpipe about 5" lower than the emergency drain to accommodate surge volume. This would increase the flow (and noise) through the standpipe during the surge and I would try to offset this somewhat by using as large a pipe as I can reasonably fit. This would also slightly increase noise between surges because the water has further to drop, but 1000gph falling over a 48" linear plane shouldn't be too bad.
Presumably this would increase the pressure on the siphon and increase the flow rate. My assumption is that this increased rate would continue momentarily after the water returns to the normal level due to the momentum of the water in the siphon. I was considering lowering the siphon another few inches below the secondary standpipe so allow for this effect. I'm wondering how far below the secondary standpipe would be far enough? Anyone using a siphon drain willing to simulate 3-5g surge as a test?
Any advice?
On a side note, I realize this results in a deep overflow box. (I'm guessing about 12" total) To compensate a little for the depth of the box I was considering sloping the bottom towards the area with the siphon to encourage settling detritus to find its way downstream.
Also, I read that installing a p-trap is "incompatible" with this design. Could you elaborate on that in terms of installing a trap in the secondary standpipe around sump level? I was considering placing a p-trap around sump water level and still submerging the end of the pipe. The intent is to have the p-trap buffer the periodic surge so that it flows into the sump with less intensity. As long as it is still submerged, the standpipe should still be able to kick in as a backup siphon, no?
I appreciate any advice anyone can lend.
Use with surge?
First of all, terrific thread! Thanks Bean for putting this together in such a concise post. The resulting thread has been a bear to read in one sitting but after many hours and I made it to page 30 of the original thread (pre-split.) I know how frustrating repeat questions can be so I made a valiant effort but the day is fading. You sure have a way of inspiring vibrant discussion!
Please accept my apologies if my questions have been previously covered.I'd like to get some clarification on some assumptions I'm making and any recommendations you may have regarding use with a surge tank.
I'm planning on drilling a series of horizontal holes in the upper-rear of the tank and installing a narrow, full-width box inside the display and a larger box for the plumbing mounted externally.
I did notice a post from someone who wanted to run 100% of his return through a surge tank. I'm not trying anything of that scale but I did want to surge 3-5 gal periodically. There will normally be 800-1000gph flowing with the 3-5g surging anywhere from every 30 seconds to 5 minutes (rate and specific volume tuned later.) After some rough calculations, even allowing for all 5 gallons in my external box at one moment, the water height would increase about 4.8" in that outer box. The main concern, as I understand it, is to ensure the siphon remains intact. If I'm surging every 60 seconds and breaking a siphon which can take minutes to purge of air there's little point to siphoning the first place, so this is key.
My thought was to place the secondary standpipe about 5" lower than the emergency drain to accommodate surge volume. This would increase the flow (and noise) through the standpipe during the surge and I would try to offset this somewhat by using as large a pipe as I can reasonably fit. This would also slightly increase noise between surges because the water has further to drop, but 1000gph falling over a 48" linear plane shouldn't be too bad.
Presumably this would increase the pressure on the siphon and increase the flow rate. My assumption is that this increased rate would continue momentarily after the water returns to the normal level due to the momentum of the water in the siphon. I was considering lowering the siphon another few inches below the secondary standpipe so allow for this effect. I'm wondering how far below the secondary standpipe would be far enough? Anyone using a siphon drain willing to simulate 3-5g surge as a test?
Any advice?On a side note, I realize this results in a deep overflow box. (I'm guessing about 12" total) To compensate a little for the depth of the box I was considering sloping the bottom towards the area with the siphon to encourage settling detritus to find its way downstream.
Also, I read that installing a p-trap is "incompatible" with this design. Could you elaborate on that in terms of installing a trap in the secondary standpipe around sump level? I was considering placing a p-trap around sump water level and still submerging the end of the pipe. The intent is to have the p-trap buffer the periodic surge so that it flows into the sump with less intensity. As long as it is still submerged, the standpipe should still be able to kick in as a backup siphon, no?
I appreciate any advice anyone can lend.
crazy4reefs
New member
BeanAnimal, the tank is currently torn down so I have many options. It's a standard Oceanic 135...currently not drilled. I'm planning on drilling it and adding a coast to coast overflow. I would like to get it as close to the wall as possible so I'm considering all options including what you mention above. This would result in the tank being about 4" from the wall and a crowded sump area underneath. Option two: plumbing it as you did, but run the lines to the sump in the basement via drilled holes in my hardwood floors. This idea is not winning much support from my girlfriend due to the holes in the floor and it also would still require the tank to be 4" from the wall. Option three: pumbing as you did inside the tank but extending the plumbing outside the tank through the wall behind the tank into the basement stairway down to the sump. Do you think the distance between the bulkhead and where the water makes it's downhill turn makes a difference??
Evil Nemo
New member
A question or two?
If I understand correctly:
1.) Could I run from the bulkheads horizontally through an interior wall (4"), then to the sanitary T's? It would be a total run of appx. 5-6" from bulkhead to sanitary T's. Might this create too much air to purge out of the siphon channel?
2.) The pipe above the sanitary T's can be a shortened length. I could shorten them, by cutting the female slip fittings without an adverse reaction ( so they do not project over the top of the tank).
3.) The primary reason to use sanitary T's and not elbows is being able to clean the lines? (except for the open channel which needs to be connected to an air line).
Thanks In Advance!
If I understand correctly:
1.) Could I run from the bulkheads horizontally through an interior wall (4"), then to the sanitary T's? It would be a total run of appx. 5-6" from bulkhead to sanitary T's. Might this create too much air to purge out of the siphon channel?
2.) The pipe above the sanitary T's can be a shortened length. I could shorten them, by cutting the female slip fittings without an adverse reaction ( so they do not project over the top of the tank).
3.) The primary reason to use sanitary T's and not elbows is being able to clean the lines? (except for the open channel which needs to be connected to an air line).
Thanks In Advance!
crazy4reefs
New member
Evil Nemo...yes I'm planning on plumbing through the wall but my total run will only be about 4" from the tank to the "T". The stairway side of the wall is open (no sheetrock yet) I plan to run the plumbing in the wall cavity
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The Tee is not really even needed on the siphon or emergency standpipes, an elbow could be used instead. For that matter, you could use an elbow for the open channel as well (you would tap the top of it for the air line). The Tees just make things easy to work with and allow the addition of a cleanout. You would be amazed at how much organic material can accumulate over several years. Fan worms, macro fauna, slime, etc.
Putting the top of the cleanout at or above the rear edge of the tank simply facilitates maintenance and will prevent the overflow of the system in the event that you have a leaking cap or wish to do service while the system, is running..
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Re: Use with surge?
Re: Use with surge?
If the volume of the surges is such that the setup does not have enough bandwidth between NON SURGE and FULL SURGE, I.E. you can get it tuned stable while both surges fill, but the surges overcome the capacity of the system and kick in the emergency, then you need to add a second open channel with its weir situated AT or ABOVE the primary open channel weir height. This will pick up the slack.
In other words when you build the overflow box, add an extra bulkhead or two for expandability
[/b][/quote] I was considering placing a p-trap around sump water level and still submerging the end of the pipe.[/b][/quote] Asking for trouble with this setup
Re: Use with surge?
Sounds reasonable.
Tune the system for a stable siphon at the lowest volume of flow (no surge flowing, both buckets filling). Adjust the intake height of the open channel standpipe weir upward in relation to the siphon intake weir. This will force the siphon to always be submerged (unless it is not tuned properly and sucks the box dry). Place the emergency standpipe at the normal "last chance or there is a flood" height.
If the volume of the surges is such that the setup does not have enough bandwidth between NON SURGE and FULL SURGE, I.E. you can get it tuned stable while both surges fill, but the surges overcome the capacity of the system and kick in the emergency, then you need to add a second open channel with its weir situated AT or ABOVE the primary open channel weir height. This will pick up the slack.
In other words when you build the overflow box, add an extra bulkhead or two for expandability
You will create a siphon in the standpipe unless the trap exit is a horizontal run that is at least (2) times the trap diameter and be vented, no different than the trap and vent in your bathroom or kitchen sink or shower. That is, you would need a P-trap, not an S-trap and it would add a good bit of complexity to the dynamics of the system.
[/b][/quote] I was considering placing a p-trap around sump water level and still submerging the end of the pipe.[/b][/quote] Asking for trouble with this setup
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Don't get too caught up on keeping the tank away from the wall. You will find that it will look good no matter what you do and a little bit of room behind the tank will make maintenance of the entire system easier.
Do you own the house or does she? Who wears the pants?
This is cerainly doable but will make the setup much more complicated with regard to tuning and getting it "right". Why not cut out the sheetrock on the tank side and place the plumbing in the wall through the floor plate? You can then repair the sheetrock. You could also, instead remove the sheetrock on the stair side do the same thing, but frame an access panel in if needed. If the sump is in the basement, the siphon adjustment valve should be there as well (to prevent cavitation on the LONG drop).
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
That is a tough one to answer, as there are a lot of variables. You can make it work, but it will take some patience.
Sure... see the reply above.
Also note that the air buffer in the top of the open channel TEE moves the small diameter air intake away from the surface of the water flowing through the standpipe. This somewhat helps reduce the sucking, faint slurping sound that the air intake makes.
Yes... as noted in a post above, you don't NEED Tees on ANY of the standpipes, but there is some benefit to using them with regard to maintenance and even ensuring the system is quiet.
crazy4reefs
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15573769#post15573769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Don't get too caught up on keeping the tank away from the wall. You will find that it will look good no matter what you do and a little bit of room behind the tank will make maintenance of the entire system easier.
Do you own the house or does she? Who wears the pants?
This is cerainly doable but will make the setup much more complicated with regard to tuning and getting it "right". Why not cut out the sheetrock on the tank side and place the plumbing in the wall through the floor plate? You can then repair the sheetrock. You could also, instead remove the sheetrock on the stair side do the same thing, but frame an access panel in if needed. If the sump is in the basement, the siphon adjustment valve should be there as well (to prevent cavitation on the LONG drop).
crazy4reefs
New member
There is entrances to the kitchen on either side of the tank which is why I'm so concerned about the space between the wall and the tank.
Can you recommend a pump that will handle the flow from this system using 1 1/2 bulkheads and plumbing with a 10' head and 4 1 inch returns plumbed over the top of the tank. I am considering a Sequence Dart or Dolphin pump.
Question on need of third standpipe.
Question on need of third standpipe.
I am modifying a reef-ready AGA 65 gallon that has 2 pre-drilled holes in the tank bottom. The tank was operating using a durso standpipe design on the 1" hole, and the return line used the other hole (a 3/4"). I decided to keep the existing durso standpipe in the 1" hole and am running a full siphon to my sump through the 3/4" hole (with a valve on the line to meter the full-siphon flow). I plumbed my return line by running a 1" PVC up the back of the tank, and over the tank edge (I did not see the need to drill the tank just for a return line).
I am operating the full siphon such that there is little to no flow through the durso standpipe. Since the durso is sized to take 100% of the flow, I do not see a need for a third line.
The system is dead-silent, the only noise is the hum of the return pump.
Any opinions?
Question on need of third standpipe.
I am modifying a reef-ready AGA 65 gallon that has 2 pre-drilled holes in the tank bottom. The tank was operating using a durso standpipe design on the 1" hole, and the return line used the other hole (a 3/4"). I decided to keep the existing durso standpipe in the 1" hole and am running a full siphon to my sump through the 3/4" hole (with a valve on the line to meter the full-siphon flow). I plumbed my return line by running a 1" PVC up the back of the tank, and over the tank edge (I did not see the need to drill the tank just for a return line).
I am operating the full siphon such that there is little to no flow through the durso standpipe. Since the durso is sized to take 100% of the flow, I do not see a need for a third line.
The system is dead-silent, the only noise is the hum of the return pump.
Any opinions?
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