Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[sleepydoc]

I am starting a new reef build. Hopefully I dont **** everyone off, but I have been through many pages throughout the forum to even remember. I am sure the information is probably out there, but wow information overload. So I have decided to start a thread specific to my project.

Tank "“ 65 gal (36X18X24)
Sump "“ Trigger Systems Ruby 36s (36X15X16) "“ Total water volume 34.5 gallons

What I liked to do:

Build an external overflow with a Bean Animal, the overflow box to be 20" wide located in the center of the tank "œ on the back")

Questions:
1. Do I notch the tank from the top "“ What dimensions?
2. Or - Should I drill holes out the back of the tank. If so what size, how many and where in relation to desired water level.
3. How deep should the overflow be "“ what dimensions?
4. What size drain lines?
5. What determines the water level with this type of design?
6. What size pump for the desired 10X turn over?
7. If you want to paint the back of your tank black "“ what do you paint it with and how do you get the silicone to stick to the paint when you mount your overflow box?

I am sure there are more questions that need to ask (feel free to suggest), but I will start here and see where the information goes. Thanks everyone for your support, I just want to get the basics right the first time and be able to enjoy the project.

Is it a rimless tank or a rimmed tank? You can notch the tank or drill holes. Most people do the latter, since it's hard to make the notch look good. If it's a rimmed tank, definitely drill holes - the rim is required for structural stability.

How much flow are you going to be running? That determines the rest of the answers. In general, a 1" pipe can flow 1500-2000 gph, or more, depending on the drop, so 1" will be plenty for you siphon. The open channel may benefit from being slightly larger simply because a larger pipe will be able to handle a wider range of flows while remaining silent.

Water level in the tank is determined by the overflow weir. Water level in the overflow is determined by the gate valve on the siphon line and the height of the open channel drain.

You can use plain latex paint to paint the tank. It won't stick very well and will be prone to scratching. Or you can use a black background like you can get at pet stores. Do it after you put the box on the back. silicone will stick to the paint, but the paint won't stick to the glass and the box will fall off. Paint won't stick to silicone.

Your pump is determined by how much flow you want, the plumbing, and anything else you want to run off the pump.

 

[thefuz]

OK, thanks. I get what you're saying (Swope2bc, I'll definitely be trying to start it as high as possible). I've got no other recourse but to try it so I'll report how it goes. Thanks, guys!!

 

[jason2459]

OK, thanks. I get what you're saying (Swope2bc, I'll definitely be trying to start it as high as possible). I've got no other recourse but to try it so I'll report how it goes. Thanks, guys!!

As long as you've got the drains setup right in both locations the horizontal run should work fine. I've been running with a 12' horizontal run for several years now with no issues. Make sure to put the valve at the sump area and don't put the siphon more then an 1" under water and less is better. It will be loud when it purges the air. Tuning the valve is tricky at first running up and down stairs but once set you should never have to touch it again. Also, plan for the extra water volume that has to drain back down on power outage or return pump shutdown.

One thing I do on almost an annual basis (about 1-2 years) is swap my siphon line with my open channel and get a drain snake and clean out the siphon. As the horizontal run will tend to build up anything and everything dead and alive. Also, try and use 45's for everything. I have two 45's butt up together to make 90's where I need too.

 

[Swope2bc]

That's great info Jason, the valve at the bottom makes a lot of sense.

 

[sleepydoc]

Jason-
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure you're not the only one, but you're the first person I've heard of running a Bean overflow with a long horizontal section. How much flow are you running through what size pipes? How does startup go and how long does it take to equilibrate? Do you have the pipes completely horizontal, or at a slight angle?

Having the valve at the bottom is what is generally recommended for basement sump systems. Like you said; after the initial setup, you shouldn't have to mess with it. Good advice on the plumbing volume, too.

I can totally believe that you get buildup in the horizontal pipes. If I were to setup such a system, I would probably put a couple of unions on the horizontal section to facilitate clean out.

 

[thefuz]

... I would probably put a couple of unions on the horizontal section to facilitate clean out.

I wasn't thinking of this - but thanks!!

Also, are there any photos of a valve setup at the bottom? Is it just above the sump outlet or at some other point? I'm glad I didn't buy my gate valves yet since I've decided to size the pipe up to 2" (drain holes are 1.5"). Valve goes on the full siphon, correct?

I'm not overly concerned about power cutoff scenarios as I'll be lowering the sump volume to compensate for that (plus a little extra). Noise is no issue downstairs.

Valve adjustment will need teamwork. I knew those motorola walkie-talkies would come in handy some day!!

 

[jason2459]

Jason-
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure you're not the only one, but you're the first person I've heard of running a Bean overflow with a long horizontal section. How much flow are you running through what size pipes? How does startup go and how long does it take to equilibrate? Do you have the pipes completely horizontal, or at a slight angle?

Having the valve at the bottom is what is generally recommended for basement sump systems. Like you said; after the initial setup, you shouldn't have to mess with it. Good advice on the plumbing volume, too.

I can totally believe that you get buildup in the horizontal pipes. If I were to setup such a system, I would probably put a couple of unions on the horizontal section to facilitate clean out.

It's pretty much straight horizontal and if anything my full siphon is angled up sightly. Tight spaces. I just measured and its more around 13' horizontal. 12' is just what I remember being easier to remember. . It's all 1" sch40 pvc. Flow is around 750gph via a mag1800.

Top one is primarily and currently the siphon. It's shoved on top so would make a slight up angle there.

Back of the tank first getting it setup. Only thing different is a tube stuck on top of of that back one.

Building the external overflow drain

Used this to attach the above to the tank(along with resealing the entire tank...)

Recent picture I took the other day showing the valves. I have two in case I need to or when I make the open the siphon

Have been running like this since I think 2011? I posted way earlier in this thread about it but the picture links are probably all broken since I used t iny url site.

 

[jason2459]

Oh, I didn't answer how long start up takes. I'll have to time it to be sure but I'd say less then 30 seconds to purge all the air and create the full siphon.


I think I answered all the questions.

 

[thefuz]

Cool, thanks. I didn't know you could get PVC in brown. That's quality!!

Hoping to get well above 2K GPH but we'll see. Beananimal calc says way above but that's under ideal conditions, I know.

 

[jason2459]

Yeah that brown is from my old SRO3000 that was consistently inconsistent and would overflow with foam everywhere. I replaced it with the skimmer you see in that picture. It's been very consistent.

 

[Toddski70]

Reef Ready 155 rebuild CF/BA question

Reef Ready 155 rebuild CF/BA question

Hi all and thanks for reading my post.

Recently I happened upon a relatively new 150 gallon Reef-Ready BowFront, with corner overflows (Herbie maybe) with an ADHI Berlin Model-30 sump. Additional equipment includes a Coral Life 200G protein skimmer, media reactor, and BlueLine Aqua Pump 30 running the show. Right now it's empty and I can do anything to it if I like. I'm thinking of re-drilling it for a Calfo/BeanAnimal combo, for all the safety/sound benefits, also I want to make it a mixed reef. So should I just leave it be, put some LR in the sump, add a fuge (probably) then call it a day of go for the redrill? There are pics on my RC page Any Advice Would be Nice.

 

[mvrabec]

I am currently designing my system and I am wondering whether it would be possible to divert a part of the return flow from the Full Siphon tube towards the refugium?

This is the planned layout:

A 320 gal display tank will drain into the sump. A 170 gal cryptic refugium will be located in a separate room.

My idea is to add a "T" element to the full Siphon Pipe and put valves on both outgoing branches (leading to sump and to refugium) to regulate the flow between them:

The piping branch leading to refugium would add 14 feet of horizontal run (with a ~10" drop in the middle as I need to catch a hole in the wall which was left to connect the two rooms - see also the first picture).

What is potentially the biggest problem is that the water level in refugium would need to be about 15" higher than in the sump:

What do you think - would this work or not?
Any comments or opinions would be highly appreciated.


Marko

 

[mvrabec]

I partly solved my own question. By adding a baffle in the sump I can raise the water level in the Full Siphon outlet area so that it remains only 6" below the water level in the refugium:

Still, any chance that the split/dual outlet of the Full Siphon pipe would work the way I imagined the piping?

Of course I could also lower the water level in the refugium to match the level in the sump, but then I'll loose ~50 gal of refugium water volume...

 

[sleepydoc]

Hi all and thanks for reading my post.



Recently I happened upon a relatively new 150 gallon Reef-Ready BowFront, with corner overflows (Herbie maybe) with an ADHI Berlin Model-30 sump. Additional equipment includes a Coral Life 200G protein skimmer, media reactor, and BlueLine Aqua Pump 30 running the show. Right now it's empty and I can do anything to it if I like. I'm thinking of re-drilling it for a Calfo/BeanAnimal combo, for all the safety/sound benefits, also I want to make it a mixed reef. So should I just leave it be, put some LR in the sump, add a fuge (probably) then call it a day of go for the redrill? There are pics on my RC page Any Advice Would be Nice.

From the pics it appears you have at least one Durso. It's possible the previous owner had dual herbies set up, but from what I understand, a dual Herbie system is rather finicky and difficult to keep tuned properly.

Your question comes up frequently - how to convert a dual overflow system to a bean. There's no great way. Probably the easiest is to simply remove the overflow boxes, plug the holes and drill the back for a coast to coast bean. I have seen one person who modified dual overflows and combined them, adding a center weir to make it a (almost) coast to coast. You can also put the siphon and open channel overflows in one corner, and the return and dry emergency in the other corner. To do this, you have to have the emergency above the edge of the overflows. You also end up with a big dead space in one corner and significantly cut the skimming area since it all occurs at one corner, so I really wouldn't recommend it.

Based on my experience with a corner overflow Herbie setup, I would put in a coast to coast with a bean now, before getting it set up and running. It's relatively easy to do now and a royal pain to do later.

 

[sleepydoc]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

I partly solved my own question. By adding a baffle in the sump I can raise the water level in the Full Siphon outlet area so that it remains only 6" below the water level in the refugium:





Still, any chance that the split/dual outlet of the Full Siphon pipe would work the way I imagined the piping?



Of course I could also lower the water level in the refugium to match the level in the sump, but then I'll loose ~50 gal of refugium water volume...

No - you are asking for problems by trying to regulate the siphon flow with two separate valves into separate bodies of water. Have the siphon empty into the sump and then tee off the return to feed the sump.

A couple other issues with your proposed setup: how are you going to get the water back to the sump from the refugium? With that small of a drop, you will get very little flow in the return pipe. One snail or bit of algae in the pipe will choke it off and you'll have a flood. Also, make sure your sump has the capacity to contain the water that siphons down from the tank when the power is cut. Filling the sump up to the top is another recipe for a flood.

 

[mvrabec]

No - you are asking for problems by trying to regulate the siphon flow with two separate valves into separate bodies of water. [...]

Thanks, doc - I appreciate your advice.

I am not so sure what to do with the outflow from refugium, though. I cannot put the refugium to any other place. (But that's already offtopic with respect to this thread).

 

[sleepydoc]

Thanks, doc - I appreciate your advice.



I am not so sure what to do with the outflow from refugium, though. I cannot put the refugium to any other place. (But that's already offtopic with respect to this thread).

Start a new thread with your issue/goals. Someone may well have an idea that could help

 

[jason2459]

Oh, I didn't answer how long start up takes. I'll have to time it to be sure but I'd say less then 30 seconds to purge all the air and create the full siphon.


I think I answered all the questions.

So, I timed the start up last night. With in a couple seconds the return line purges all it's air but from that time to the time the drains behind the tank become completely silent again is about 1m 38s.

On shutdown it drains all lines by the 1 minute mark and can audibly hear the siphon open up completely.

 

[sleepydoc]

So, I timed the start up last night. With in a couple seconds the return line purges all it's air but from that time to the time the drains behind the tank become completely silent again is about 1m 38s.

On shutdown it drains all lines by the 1 minute mark and can audibly hear the siphon open up completely.

Thanks for posting the info. Sounds like it takes a bit longer, but under 2 minutes isn't bad, and it's purging the air and working, which is the important thing. 750 GPH in 1" pipe is reasonable flow, but not extraordinarily high. I wonder if a larger pipe (& therefore slower flow) would prevent the purging? (That's a rhetorical question; I'm not asking you to replumb your system to check!) My guess is it would, and if so, it would mean that the feasibility of a horizontal run would depend on the flow-pipe diameter ratio.

 

[borderreef]

I'm having an issue that I hope someone can help me with. I just completed a new build using a beananimal drain. No modifications. The first time I started my return pump the drain completed a syphon and was completely silent in seconds. Ran great for days. I had to shut off the return pump for some maintenance, and when I restarted, my drain will not go quiet. There is the initial syphon, but it will not purge all the air so it is loud and lots of bubbles. It has been going like this over night.