Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

The vinyl tubing is also 1" ID. (Of course it is restricted a tad by the smaller nipples that you clamp the tubing too.) The open channel seems to be hogging all the flow. On start up, even with the siphon channel valve completely closed, the water level never makes it down the emergency pipe before the open channel just starts draining the box like mad.

Sigh. I'm going to have to replumb this aren't I?

There is a very short list of possibilities for the cause of your issue.

1) Your pipes are too deep in the sump. They need to be less than 1" below the surface of the sump. Any more than that creates the need for greater head pressure to purge the air out of the siphon line.

2) The air vent line is to low in the overflow box. If it is too low, the open channel will trip to siphon, before the siphon has a chance to purge the air. If the water level does not make it to the top of the dry emergency, there will not be enough head pressure to start the system, and hence the open channel takes all the flow. That is the acid test. The air vent line inlet needs to be above the inlet to the dry emergency,

3) Horizontal runs in the plumbing can cause the siphon to air lock, and the open channel takes all the flow.


3) Less common problem, is the bulkheads being too large for the flow rate. If you have 1.5" bulkheads, and 600gph (just a random low flow number) the system will not start, and the open channel takes all the flow.

4) Vinyl tubing is a poor material to use. The fittings are restrictive, just for one. If you need "flexibility" then spa-flex is the material to use. Quite honestly, there should be no need for flexibility, as a little thought can usually solve most routing problems.

Invariably, with start up issues, it is a problem with the implementation. How it was put together. Using a fine tooth comb, and going over the implementation, will solve the issue.

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Topic Change:

In this post http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23863094&postcount=8530, (no reflection on the person that posted it) the dry emergency is way to low in relation to the other two standpipes, and the water level has no place to rise. It is a certain recipe for a failed system. I have stressed this in the past, but I will go back to it again: you cannot stuff this system in a tiny box, and expect it to work the way it is supposed to. It may drain water, but it will not work the way it is supposed to. I have run too many tests on "jamming" it in small boxes. This system functions on head pressure, not miracles, and the setup in the cited post, will not get any head pressure on the siphon.If you look back a ways in this thread, I posted a link to a video that shows how high the water level needs to get to start the siphon, the right way.

I am not enthralled with the internal/external concept, and I built it over 5 years ago. It works well, but was a waste of time. I don't think the "need for minimal footprint" should outweigh the need for performance, and the "small" internal/external setups (aka "ghost overflow") are self defeating, and a considerable step backwards, performance wise. What should come first is the needs of the system, not aesthetics; the "ghost overflow" is no more aesthetic than an original design BA, but from what I have seen, the original design BA out performs it.

 

[Reefer PT]

I am not enthralled with the internal/external concept, and I built it over 5 years ago. It works well, but was a waste of time. I don't think the "need for minimal footprint" should outweigh the need for performance, and the "small" internal/external setups (aka "ghost overflow") are self defeating, and a considerable step backwards, performance wise. What should come first is the needs of the system, not aesthetics; the "ghost overflow" is no more aesthetic than an original design BA, but from what I have seen, the original design BA out performs it.

Maybe a 2 new sticky threads should be started with one being a proper internal only BA setup and one for Internal/external setups. As I made an honest attempt to read through this monster of a thread I came to the conclusion (maybe falsely) that the internal/external overflow was "the best way." Uncle, thank you for so much time you put into this thread! I just feel that it has become information overload as so many have tried to modify the system and have sought advise on how to deal with the problems. I feel there just needs to be a simple HOW -TO thread and if someone varies the system, they should seek help on a separate thread.
Dave

 

[Adamc1303]

Wondering if anyone has tried this before. I currently run a Bean Animal drain. I wanted to try to get more turn over in the tank. If I add a gate valve to the secondary drain and turn it into Herbie would there be any reason that comes to mind that it wouldn't work? Once I know that more turnover in the tank would remedy some of the issues I am having then I would consider re-drilling 3 more holes to setup another full Bean Animal system. I just don't want to do it if there is any reason that I am not thinking of at the moment that will cause it to not work properly.


Thanks,

Adam

 

[Bent]

Wondering if anyone has tried this before. I currently run a Bean Animal drain. I wanted to try to get more turn over in the tank. If I add a gate valve to the secondary drain and turn it into Herbie would there be any reason that comes to mind that it wouldn't work? Once I know that more turnover in the tank would remedy some of the issues I am having then I would consider re-drilling 3 more holes to setup another full Bean Animal system. I just don't want to do it if there is any reason that I am not thinking of at the moment that will cause it to not work properly.


Thanks,

Adam

I put a ball valve on my open channel and it's the only way I could get my application to work.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

I'll be drilling my tank for the external Bean design this week, and was hoping someone could answer two quick questions for me:

1) Will two holes in the tank draining into the box be enough or should I have three?
2) Is there a set size for dimensions of the box? Or can I make it whatever size I want?

Thanks!

 

[sleepydoc]

Maybe a 2 new sticky threads should be started with one being a proper internal only BA setup and one for Internal/external setups. As I made an honest attempt to read through this monster of a thread I came to the conclusion (maybe falsely) that the internal/external overflow was "the best way." Uncle, thank you for so much time you put into this thread! I just feel that it has become information overload as so many have tried to modify the system and have sought advise on how to deal with the problems. I feel there just needs to be a simple HOW -TO thread and if someone varies the system, they should seek help on a separate thread.
Dave

Yes - the thread has become unmanageably large and long; and much of it is not relevant, making searching through it difficult. I don't know that starting a new thread would fix that. User forums like Reef Central are great for discussions and Q&A, but rather poor as reference sites. I've toyed with the idea of setting up a wiki or some other reference site, but honestly don't have the time right now. Hopefully some day...

 

[sleepydoc]

Wondering if anyone has tried this before. I currently run a Bean Animal drain. I wanted to try to get more turn over in the tank. If I add a gate valve to the secondary drain and turn it into Herbie would there be any reason that comes to mind that it wouldn't work? Once I know that more turnover in the tank would remedy some of the issues I am having then I would consider re-drilling 3 more holes to setup another full Bean Animal system. I just don't want to do it if there is any reason that I am not thinking of at the moment that will cause it to not work properly.


Thanks,

Adam

What is your setup, and how much flow are you running? In his original description, Beananimal describes 1" bulkheads with 1.5" pipes running 2000 GPH, and that's not even wide open.

If I read your post correctly, you are talking about running a full siphon (presumably wide open,) a 2nd full siphon dialed back with a gate valve and a dry emergency? Doing this eliminates one of the failsafes of the system, so I can't recommend it. Unless you have significantly undersized bulkheads, flow shouldn't be an issue.

 

[sleepydoc]

I'll be drilling my tank for the external Bean design this week, and was hoping someone could answer two quick questions for me:

1) Will two holes in the tank draining into the box be enough or should I have three?
2) Is there a set size for dimensions of the box? Or can I make it whatever size I want?

Thanks!

1. You need 3 holes for a bean. Please re-read Bean's original description and make sure you understand the operation and fail-safe mechanisms.
2. Sizing of the overflow box depends on your tank, plumbing, flow, etc. There is no single 'correct' size. Before you drill your tank, you should carefully plan everything out with you overflow box, plumbing, etc to make sure you have everything sized and spaced correctly. Take your time and do this right before proceeding; you'll save yourself heartache later on.

 

[Swope2bc]

1) Will two holes in the tank draining into the box be enough or should I have three?
!

1. You need 3 holes for a bean. Please re-read Bean's original description and make sure you understand the operation and fail-safe mechanisms..

Your always a huge help doc, but he is asking if two holes through the tank into an external box (with 3 hole bean in the external) is sufficient.

Because you want steady even flow through to the external box and drains I recommend going with 3 wholes, but Doc may have a differing opinion.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

1. You need 3 holes for a bean. Please re-read Bean's original description and make sure you understand the operation and fail-safe mechanisms.

I understand that the three pipes used in Beans design needs three holes. But in many of the external box designs i've seen around YouTube and this forum, they did something like this plan I found on Google Images. Notice how the guy plans to drill two holes in his display tank for the water to drain into his external box where the Bean plumbing is housed. There's even a video of a guy functional 40 breeder with external Bean overflow and he had what appeared to be 2 holes. I just wanted to be sure two was enough, otherwise I will do 3 to be safe.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

It's just a pass through. You could do one hole if it was big enough.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

It's just a pass through. You could do one hole if it was big enough.

Thank you, that's all I needed to hear.

 

[Adamc1303]

I understand that the three pipes used in Beans design needs three holes. But in many of the external box designs i've seen around YouTube and this forum, they did something like this plan I found on Google Images. Notice how the guy plans to drill two holes in his display tank for the water to drain into his external box where the Bean plumbing is housed. There's even a video of a guy functional 40 breeder with external Bean overflow and he had what appeared to be 2 holes. I just wanted to be sure two was enough, otherwise I will do 3 to be safe.

I would drill as many as I can fit into the width of the box. On my tank it was done that way opposed to being grooved and I notice that the box doesn't get as much water as the siphon can handle which causes me to have less turn over then I want.

 

[sleepydoc]

I understand that the three pipes used in Beans design needs three holes. But in many of the external box designs i've seen around YouTube and this forum, they did something like this plan I found on Google Images. Notice how the guy plans to drill two holes in his display tank for the water to drain into his external box where the Bean plumbing is housed. There's even a video of a guy functional 40 breeder with external Bean overflow and he had what appeared to be 2 holes. I just wanted to be sure two was enough, otherwise I will do 3 to be safe.

Sorry - I misunderstood your question.

Like floyd said, the number of holes doesn't matter, as long as they are sufficient to allow relatively unrestricted flow through to the external box. I don't have a good rule to gauge the size of the though-holes, but remember, the entire flow of your sump/overflow will be running though them. If you're trying to run 1000 gph then a single 1.75" hole (1" bulkhead size) will probably be a bit small.

 

[thefuz]

Not sure if this has been answered in the thread already but I'm wondering about oversizing the pipes on the drain line vs. the bulkheads. I'm setting up a 250 with a peninsula overflow (first photo). 1.5" bulkheads and thinking of going with 2" piping. The drainage will flow through the first floor into the basement.

While I'll be going through the floor with flex pvc as there are some unique turns, there will likely be a nearly horizontal run from the area behind and above the furnace to the sump on the right (second photo with the drain lines coming down from the first floor where the [1] is). Will this present a problem for a silent drain and/or greatly reduce flow?

Planning on running back up from the sump with 1.5" pipe via a Reeflo Hammerhead (green arrow). I'm guessing ~14ft of head on that.

 

[sleepydoc]

Not sure if this has been answered in the thread already but I'm wondering about oversizing the pipes on the drain line vs. the bulkheads. I'm setting up a 250 with a peninsula overflow (first photo). 1.5" bulkheads and thinking of going with 2" piping. The drainage will flow through the first floor into the basement.

While I'll be going through the floor with flex pvc as there are some unique turns, there will likely be a nearly horizontal run from the area behind and above the furnace to the sump on the right (second photo with the drain lines coming down from the first floor where the [1] is). Will this present a problem for a silent drain and/or greatly reduce flow?

Planning on running back up from the sump with 1.5" pipe via a Reeflo Hammerhead (green arrow). I'm guessing ~14ft of head on that.

Yes, horizontal runs cause problems for a bean overflow. They make it difficult for the siphon line to purge the air which in turn reduces the flow.

 

[thefuz]

So is this going to be a huge issue preventing proper flow or will it just be less than ideal? Any suggestions on a workaround. I can probably build in a little incline. I just don't want the line to come down too low across that space if I can avoid it.

 

[Swope2bc]

Can you run it tight inside the ceiling joist when you come through the floor and provide a gradual slope over from there? I would think you can achieve a reasonable angle without it becoming too low if you start as high as possible... Doc will have a more experienced answer though.

 

[bcracer5]

I am starting a new reef build. Hopefully I dont **** everyone off, but I have been through many pages throughout the forum to even remember. I am sure the information is probably out there, but wow information overload. So I have decided to start a thread specific to my project.

Tank – 65 gal (36X18X24)
Sump – Trigger Systems Ruby 36s (36X15X16) – Total water volume 34.5 gallons

What I liked to do:

Build an external overflow with a Bean Animal, the overflow box to be 20” wide located in the center of the tank “ on the back”)

Questions:
1. Do I notch the tank from the top – What dimensions?
2. Or - Should I drill holes out the back of the tank. If so what size, how many and where in relation to desired water level.
3. How deep should the overflow be – what dimensions?
4. What size drain lines?
5. What determines the water level with this type of design?
6. What size pump for the desired 10X turn over?
7. If you want to paint the back of your tank black – what do you paint it with and how do you get the silicone to stick to the paint when you mount your overflow box?

I am sure there are more questions that need to ask (feel free to suggest), but I will start here and see where the information goes. Thanks everyone for your support, I just want to get the basics right the first time and be able to enjoy the project.

 

[sleepydoc]

So is this going to be a huge issue preventing proper flow or will it just be less than ideal? Any suggestions on a workaround. I can probably build in a little incline. I just don't want the line to come down too low across that space if I can avoid it.

I can't say for sure - I've never built a bean overflow with a horizontal run, so my answer is extrapolated from what I've read of other people's experience and my knowledge of the physics.

Horizontal runs interfere with the siphon line purging air at startup. If there is air in the line, it won't run as a full siphon, it will be noisy, and the flow will be decreased. This will then lead to increased flow in the open channel and possibly oscillations in the overflow levels. It's possible that it may work, depending on your flow, pipe diameters and exact configuration, but I can't say for sure.

Perhaps someone else who has actually tried it can chime in.