Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Sphack]

I am planning a 220g tank with a bean overflow and a 180g sump in the basement. I have about 11' of vertical drop, and about 14' of horizontal (which can be sloped in the basement). I am trying to design for flow through the sump at about 1200-1400gph.



I understand the issues with horizontal runs and the siphon channel. I used the calculator on bean's page to find that 1" pipe and my vertical drop will give me a theoretical siphon of almost 4000gph, and 1.25" pipe bumps that to about 6000gph.



Now, my questions:



1. Given that 1" will flow at least 2x what I need, is it better to use this smaller pipe for the siphon vs. 1.25"? Is there a potential benefit to the smaller pipe because it will help overcome the issues related to my horizontal runs (less air in the smaller pipe means easier to start siphon?).



2. With a siphon that is 2x the desired flow, any idea how much tuning is available via the gate valve? Might I find that I need to run the gate almost wide open? That would push me to run the larger pipe, but then am I losing the potential benefit of the easier to start siphon? How much wiggle room do I need to leave myself?



3. Does anyone have practical experience with around 11' vertical drop and 14' horizontal - what size pipe did you use for your siphon, are you happy with what you ...

I started reading this post and needed to double check that I didn't actually write it and don't remember. I have a very similar situation, though looking at 160-350 gallons.

Are the advantages of the vertical drop negated much by the horizontal flows?

-sphack

 

[zelie_dad]

I read the entire first 40 page portion of this thread, then started reading this 300 page portion, but I don't think I'll make it through all 8000+ posts in my lifetime. So I searched this thread, and all of RC, for similar situations to mine, found a few, but none that specifically answers my question ... so here I am.

I am planning a 220g tank with a bean overflow and a 180g sump in the basement. I have about 11' of vertical drop, and about 14' of horizontal (which can be sloped in the basement). I am trying to design for flow through the sump at about 1200-1400gph.

I understand the issues with horizontal runs and the siphon channel. I used the calculator on bean's page to find that 1" pipe and my vertical drop will give me a theoretical siphon of almost 4000gph, and 1.25" pipe bumps that to about 6000gph.

Now, my questions:

1. Given that 1" will flow at least 2x what I need, is it better to use this smaller pipe for the siphon vs. 1.25"? Is there a potential benefit to the smaller pipe because it will help overcome the issues related to my horizontal runs (less air in the smaller pipe means easier to start siphon?).

2. With a siphon that is 2x the desired flow, any idea how much tuning is available via the gate valve? Might I find that I need to run the gate almost wide open? That would push me to run the larger pipe, but then am I losing the potential benefit of the easier to start siphon? How much wiggle room do I need to leave myself?

3. Does anyone have practical experience with around 11' vertical drop and 14' horizontal - what size pipe did you use for your siphon, are you happy with what you have?

Thanks for reading ...
Tom

I have a remote sump (40 breeder) in my basement for my 40 breeder DT I have ~16' of horizontal run, and ~8' of vertical. I just installed all my plumbing this past weekend, and started my system yesterday. I am running 1" drain lines.

I had the opportunity to speak with Bean on the phone and his advice to me was the following:

• Place the valve on the main siphon as low as possible. My in just above my sump.
• For the secondary drain, the one with the airline/hole needs plenty of fall to prevent the drain from filling with water.

here are a few pictures of my plumbing.

Towards my sump

Towards my DT

Going through the floor

The gate valve on the main siphon drain

Once I it was tuned, which wasn't very hard, despite what I've read, it is completely silent. The only thing I've noticed is that when I had to add some water to the system, I had to make a small adjustment to the gate valve.

Honestly, if you have at least a 1/4" of fall per foot, which in your case would be 3.5", on all the drain lines, you will be fine, but if you can get more fall on the secondary line, as recommended by Bean, that would be better.

 

[vhuang168]

I'm in the process of gathering parts for my 190g build. The internal overflow came predrilled with 3 1" drain holes. My sump came with 1.5" bulkheads. Should I use 1.5" lines the whole way or use 1" or maybe compromise and use 1.25"?

 

[zelie_dad]

I'm in the process of gathering parts for my 190g build. The internal overflow came predrilled with 3 1" drain holes. My sump came with 1.5" bulkheads. Should I use 1.5" lines the whole way or use 1" or maybe compromise and use 1.25"?

That is exactly how my overflow is. 1.5" bulkheads through the glass, and 1" bulkheads out the bottom of the external overflow box.

 

[foxt]

I have a remote sump (40 breeder) in my basement for my 40 breeder DT I have ~16' of horizontal run, and ~8' of vertical. I just installed all my plumbing this past weekend, and started my system yesterday. I am running 1" drain lines.

So 1" lines for all three lines? I am surprised by that, only because I would have thought that the open channel would be better if it were larger, but very good to know that 1" is working for you. What flow rate do you think you have into the DT? Any idea how far open the gate valve is?

The only thing I've noticed is that when I had to add some water to the system, I had to make a small adjustment to the gate valve.

When you add water, what do you think drives the need to adjust the gate valve? My understanding was that the DT level would stay the same, level in traditional sump return section would rise, but nothing would change that would require you to change the siphon rate on the drain line?

 

[zelie_dad]

So 1" lines for all three lines? I am surprised by that, only because I would have thought that the open channel would be better if it were larger, but very good to know that 1" is working for you. What flow rate do you think you have into the DT? Any idea how far open the gate valve is?


When you add water, what do you think drives the need to adjust the gate valve? My understanding was that the DT level would stay the same, level in traditional sump return section would rise, but nothing would change that would require you to change the siphon rate on the drain line?

Since I'm starting my system for the first time, I used an arbitrary amount of water. Once everything settled, it was a little low, so I added a some to bring it too where I wanted it. Once the water level is stable, the need to adjust the gate valve will not be required.

Honestly I don't know how much flow I'm getting through my sump. I'm not really concerned with that right now, considering I just started my tank. Down the line it may need adjusted, but for the time being, I'm fine with it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If the water level in the sump changes as a result of additional water, then the total head seen by the siphon will slightly change. This will mean more or less water in the open channel. On a system with a siphon run this long small changes in head can have a large impact on actual flow rate.

It is best to have a sump with a discharge compartment that is not affected by sump volume. (A simple over baffle for example).

 

[SkyReef]

I got 1 of the drains dry fitted. Does this look too restrictive?

Hey, Clowns:

How are you affixing your external overflow box to your tank? More specifically, how are you supporting the overflow box? I have an external overflow box that would probably not be sufficiently supported by the side-support of the mere bulkhead attachments to the back glass of the tank. So I supported the my external overflow box underneath, with two 2x4s, wedged beneath the overflow box and the surface of the tank stand, to prop it up.

My concern was that, with the weight of the water in the trough of the overflow box, it would pull hard on the rear glass panel of the tank, and crack it. Not sure if this would apply to your external overflow box, which might be lighter than mine, which is made of wood.

See pictures here:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2273051&page=5

BTW: Very nice aquarium stand you have there!

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Hello skyreef, thanks for the compliment. When planet aquariums built the tank they siliconed the heck out of it to the back glass. It also has a layer of ABS that surrounds it as well and that's siliconed to the back too. Finally it's siliconed into the double layer eurobracing that I have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Johnseye]

Need some setup help. I'm sure it's been addressed several times in this thread, and I'll keep looking but haven't found the answer yet.

Both drain and return sizes are 1.5". Return trims down to 3/4" at the bulkheads. Siphon drain has a two 90 elbows and is close to the bottom of the overflow. Open channel has two 90 elbows with a hole drilled into the top. No tube coming out of the hole (I have a lid on the overflow so would like to avoid the tube). The height of the hole is just short of the lip of the tank itself. E-drain is just short of the height of the overflow box.

The problem I'm having is that the water level will rise just below the top hole in the open channel then drop, then rise, then drop, over and over. I'm guessing the siphon isn't getting created from the siphon drain. I've adjusted the gate valve on the siphon but it doesn't change the flush I'm getting.

Pics of the plumbing in my build thread, link below.

 

[Johnseye]

As I continue to research, I think my open channel needs to be higher so that the hole on top is higher than the e-drain. The trick will be doing this without making the e-drain lower than the open channel itself. Although the water level never actually reaches the hole itself to create a full siphon in the open channel. It gets close, then drops. It is possible the hole gets closed inside the pipe and I'm not seeing that on the outside.

 

[Johnseye]

I was partially right. I raised the open channel and I also increased the size of the air intake hole on the open channel. I remembered from my time setting up a Durso the impact that hole has and the flushing, or rise and fall effect it has. All good now.

 

[stage3-s4]

Does anyone have this setup on a 40 gallon breeder I can use? I'm sure something is burred in the 361 pages of this thread.

 

[zelie_dad]

Does anyone have this setup on a 40 gallon breeder I can use? I'm sure something is burred in the 361 pages of this thread.

Yes I do. If you look one page back, you can see my plumbing going to my basement 40 breeder sump.


Here is my tank with my overflow and returned.

and the overflow box

 

[stage3-s4]

Yes I do. If you look one page back, you can see my plumbing going to my basement 40 breeder sump.


Here is my tank with my overflow and returned.

and the overflow box

wow that is an interesting setup. I have never seen something like that before.

So you have a box in the tank and than a box outside the tank? 2 bulkheads in between to allow water to flow through? Did you make those 2 boxes yourself? are they glass or acrylic?

 

[zelie_dad]

wow that is an interesting setup. I have never seen something like that before.

So you have a box in the tank and than a box outside the tank? 2 bulkheads in between to allow water to flow through? Did you make those 2 boxes yourself? are they glass or acrylic?

It is a Modular Marine "Ghost" overflow. A handful of companies make them. I ordered my without the "teeth", and I also ordered a cover for the external box. Cost me about $150.

 

[stage3-s4]

It is a Modular Marine "Ghost" overflow. A handful of companies make them. I ordered my without the "teeth", and I also ordered a cover for the external box. Cost me about $150.

thanks for the info. I may consider making my own version out of Polypropylene instead of acrylic.

 

[paulojbsilva]

Hi everyone!
I'm fine tunning my overflow and replacing some parts in the tubbing etc etc...
I have gurgling sounds and flushing occurs in the overflow, I believe due to poor tunning in the valve of the siphon pipe. One question haunts my thoughts anyway. My open chanel intake and full siphon are at the same height. I saw some guys who had the open channel a little bit above the full shiphon. Have I messed up making them same height? I don't think I can fix that now...
Thanks!

Greetings from Portugal

Paulo

 

[zelie_dad]

Hi everyone!
I'm fine tunning my overflow and replacing some parts in the tubbing etc etc...
I have gurgling sounds and flushing occurs in the overflow, I believe due to poor tunning in the valve of the siphon pipe. One question haunts my thoughts anyway. My open chanel intake and full siphon are at the same height. I saw some guys who had the open channel a little bit above the full shiphon. Have I messed up making them same height? I don't think I can fix that now...
Thanks!

Greetings from Portugal

Paulo

I have my open channel about a 1/2" (~13 mm) above my full siphon, and the emergency another 1/2" above that. I mine is dead silent.

Do you have an air line attached to the open channel? Where is your valve?

 

[stage3-s4]

Any reason not to use 1" bulheads with 1" elbows and 1" piping to my sump for my 40 gallon breeder. I wouldn't have more than 600GPH flow into my tank from the sump.