Ill have to find the sweet spot for sure. This is a trition setup so it drains directly into the fuge. Now that I know what the issue was its easier to dial it in. So far seems to be working fine.
Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
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Ill have to find the sweet spot for sure. This is a trition setup so it drains directly into the fuge. Now that I know what the issue was its easier to dial it in. So far seems to be working fine.
John McGahern
New member
Okay, the more I talk with you the more I'm getting my head around it. Tell me if I'm getting this right here...The full siphon obviously is the first in line. The emergency upturned 90 is second and the water if it rose due to the full siphon being blocked would hit that opening first. Then lastly the open line, although the down turned 90 would be at the same depth as the full siphon line, the end of the air line is placed slightly higher than the emergency opening and should only turn into a full siphon if both of the others are blocked?
I wouldn't submerge the pipes any more then 1" into the sump. If u have 90's or something else in the lines that makes it harder to purge the air out of the lines then u may be only able to submerge it 1/2" into the sump. Like they mentioned above, if it submerged to far into the sump it won't purge the air for the syphon to kick in.
If I had to guess your syphon wasn't actually syphoning because it had air & that is why the adjusting the valve wasn't doing anything. That is why I brought it up in the last post. It sounded like the syphon wasn't working correctly.
That sounds about right. The open channel will always have a trickle of water going through it but u don't want it to syphon unless both other drains get clogged.
I don't know if u saw it in my last post but one way u may be able to get away with using the airline is by extending the top of the open channel standpipe up to where it is close to the top of the overflow box & above the emergency.
John McGahern
New member
Yes I saw that and may consider doing that, thank you. One other thing I wondering is how do I know I'm getting the perfect amount of trickle in the open line. Bean mentions in his post that anything more than a 1/4" of the cross section of the pipe and you'll start to get gurgling as it starts to "pull" down air. If the 90 is turned down in the overflow box and the exit point is below the water line in the sump, how can one tell if you've got it set right. Is it done by adjusting the valve on the full siphon line until I here minimal noise and that's it?
Basically what he meant was if u connect two 90's together to make a upside U. Where the two 90's attach to each other is what he is referring to as the cross section. If u have a tee with a 90 attached then it would be about 1/8" to 1/4" above the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attaches to it. To tune it in perfect then yes, u will judge it by the noise & the bubbles exiting the pipe into the sump. I find u start to hear it when it gets more then about 1/8 of the cross section & really loud once it gets above 1/4
The valve on the syphon will actually adjust the water level inside the overflow box, but the hieght of the open channel standpipe will actually determine where u want the water level to be. U don't want the water level inside the overflow to be way lower then the tank & have the water falling to far over the wier on the overflow box because that would get loud. Usually u want the water level inside the overflow to be less then 2" below the tank waterline so the waterfall going into the box is less then 2". That is one reason not to glue anything inside of the overflow box, sump u can adjust the heights of the standpipes if u see that u need to once u get everything going.
Byw, if u google - Beananimal Bar & Grill - that is beans website. If u look at his silent & failsafe overflow he gives a good rundown of the system. It may be helpful & give u a better understanding so when u do ask a question u may understand the answer better. I don't mind at all helping but I know I'm not great at explaining things in text sometimes & bean explains things better then me. Sometimes I read what I type & it doesn't come out how I mean it to, I'm better with words then typing.
Yes the siphon was not working properly. It had a giant air pocket in the line that i had to purged out. There are 3 90s in the line between the overflow box and sump. The water level in my sump is currently in flux is what I meant for figuring out the actual length of the pipe that will be below the water line. Thanks for the help though.
John McGahern
New member
On the contrary! I have read the article several times and although I had a basic understanding of what was going, speaking to someone like yourself is INVALUABLE as you're able to answer questions that can't be found just by reading the article. Thanks again!
John McGahern
New member
What do you think of this set up. This is sort of what I was talking about without the use of an air line on the open channel, but just by making sure it's set higher than the emergency..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oya6X3aLUOo
That will be fine. With your type of overflow the water level inside the overflow box will just be higher so the standpipes will be higher in the overflow box. If u can get the hole in the top above the emergency it should work fine.
In the video that is actually a 1.5” ptrap. The hole they are using is a cleanout. It has female threads so if u use something like that then u can always add a airline to it if u find u need it. With the female threads u can get the right size John Guest fitting & it would screw straight into the p-trap
In the video that is actually a 1.5” ptrap. The hole they are using is a cleanout. It has female threads so if u use something like that then u can always add a airline to it if u find u need it. With the female threads u can get the right size John Guest fitting & it would screw straight into the p-trap
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MJLReefkeeper
New member
Just checking to see if my posting is working
HarlequinTusk
Member
Question on doing a herbie with one 3/4" bulkhead (1 1/2" hole) and one 1" bulkhead (1 3/4" hole). I have a pre-drilled tank (All Glass), so those are the bulkhead options available to me. I'm planning on running 1" pipe to both. For the 3/4" bulkhead, I'll just use 3/4" to 1" adapters above and below the bulkhead. It's my understanding that this will still function as a 1" drain, with the difference being the water velocity and pressure will be a little higher through the 3/4" section. If my assumptions are valid, I'm wondering which one I should use as my emergency drain? Any thoughts? I apologize if this had already been answered. I started to go through this thread, but there are too many posts to scan.
The bulkhead itself is the limiting factor, but upsizing the pipe does help to a extent. It still won't be able to handle the same amount of flow as the 1" bulkhead. I would use the 1" bulkhead as the emergency. Using the 3/4" as the emergency is taking a risk because it can't handle as much flow as the 1". So if the 1" syphon gets clogged the emergency may not be able to handle the flow. Always use the larger bulkhead as the emergency that way there is no question that it can handle all of the flow.
Clowning_Around
New member
Sorry for bring back up an old section of the thread but my issues where previously discussed in threads #9481-9496 (not sure how to hyperlink that section). Basically, I was not able to return right away to he hobby due to a surgery and recovery, hence my delayed post. At any rate as of recent I'm back at it and have one more question now that things are in the works. The above is post #9495 and references Bean's reply in #9486.
Here's my current situation. Most of my assembly was difficult to contend with/access and all permanently affixed. I ended up keeping the siphon where it was given there was no issue with it. The emergency also was basically fine, except I did raise it some for extra height before emergency kicks in. Lastly, I have changed the Open to have an upturned elbow followed by 2 more forming an inverted "U". I then also placed a vertical section on the inlet of that U extending down in the box, close to the glass to limit livestock access. (I'm thinking I should have omitted that piece now). So now, noise is no longer an issue its dialing in the system. I had previously thought having the airline on the open channel would break siphon/vacuum and be ok with the vertical but that doesn't appear to be whats occurring. Here's an example, I have to fully close my siphon line before the water level rises to the horizontal part of that U before it stops rising. If I have my siphon open as it should be even if only slightly the water level never raises in the overflow box up to the U making it silent, like it is when closed instead it surges up and down. I'm assuming I should just cut off that leg on the open channel and be golden but wanted to check before I go hacking away at it given its easier to remove then to add. I've spent a lot of time and continue to make mistakes, so I'm asking for feedback first this time. Because at this point I would really like to have my system up and running properly to enjoy it rather than getting discouraged by it. Thanks in advance for your help. Let me know if any of the above is unclear or if you have some other question about my specifics I need to outline.
Here's a quick crude diagram of what I have now:
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The extension on the open channel really isn’t doing anything to affect the drain that I can think of. Basically on the open channel the water has to get to the point where the two 90’s join together to make the U for it to drain any water. Basically where u have the dotted line drawn. The water would have to get over that point before the open channel takes any water being it isn’t a syphon.
Is the open channel taking any water when the water level is flunctuation in the overflow box or is it never getting to that point?
If the water in the overflow keeps fluncuating to where it raises & then all of a sudden completely drains the overflow box, then eighther the syphon is kicking in & out of syphon or the open channel syphons & empties the overflow before the syphon kicks in on the syphon drain. That is one of the reasons the output of the airline is supposed to be above the emergency drain.
It sounds like u are just having trouble getting the syphon tuned in, so when the syphon kicks in it just empties the overflow box until the syphon sucks air. When the syphon sucks air the water will build up again until the syphon purges the air again & when it does it just empties the overflow again.
When u get the system going the first thing u want to try & achieve is to get the water in the overflow box stable to where it doesn’t flunctuate. Once u get to that point is when u can fine tune it to get the water level to where u want it. In your case u are going to want the water level right where u have the dotted line drawn on the open channel.
I would start with the valve fully open. Let the system get going & close the valve half way & see what happens. If the water level still doesn’t rise & isn’t steady then u will need to close the valve even more. Depending on flow & size of the plumbing u may end up having to run it with the valve halfway to 3/4’s of the way closed.
Is the open channel taking any water when the water level is flunctuation in the overflow box or is it never getting to that point?
If the water in the overflow keeps fluncuating to where it raises & then all of a sudden completely drains the overflow box, then eighther the syphon is kicking in & out of syphon or the open channel syphons & empties the overflow before the syphon kicks in on the syphon drain. That is one of the reasons the output of the airline is supposed to be above the emergency drain.
It sounds like u are just having trouble getting the syphon tuned in, so when the syphon kicks in it just empties the overflow box until the syphon sucks air. When the syphon sucks air the water will build up again until the syphon purges the air again & when it does it just empties the overflow again.
When u get the system going the first thing u want to try & achieve is to get the water in the overflow box stable to where it doesn’t flunctuate. Once u get to that point is when u can fine tune it to get the water level to where u want it. In your case u are going to want the water level right where u have the dotted line drawn on the open channel.
I would start with the valve fully open. Let the system get going & close the valve half way & see what happens. If the water level still doesn’t rise & isn’t steady then u will need to close the valve even more. Depending on flow & size of the plumbing u may end up having to run it with the valve halfway to 3/4’s of the way closed.
Clowning_Around
New member
Okay, i'll give it another shot with more time at each setting.
To answer ? If water ever reaches the U.... If I do reset via open full siphon such that box drains below open inlet and start over here's what happens. Dial gate valve partially closed until water begins to rise, maybe 80%open. Water rises to U. Once it hits the U it immediately drains it down to the open inlet and from there on begins surging up and down never reaching the U again. That's why I thought a vacuum had occurred.
To add to this I ran another crude test to try and confirm some thoughts. I have my airline in a cap similar to Beans original design. So I just took the entire cap off with the airline tube to allow more air, again thinking a vacuum was occurring. Thing is this did help, albeit not solved nor quiet. So at the time I was still thinking it was a vacuum issue. But sounds like you don't think the vertical is effecting it, so I'll play with it more because I'd prefer not to cut it out.
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Clowning_Around
New member
Solved! Was just needing a little time for regulating with the setting / dial in issue. As with most things in the hobby, patience is key! Thank so much for the help!
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Yea, somtimes it takes some playing with it to tune it in. Especially with a gate valve because if u are way off & only making small adjustments it seems like u are getting nowhere. It sounds like water level in the overflow would build up to the U on the open channel before the syphon could purge the air for the syphon to kick in. When the syphon would kick in it would drain the overflow because the valve needed to be closed more.
Clowning_Around
New member
I was surprised by how closed it was. I suppose it makes sense now considering its 1.5in pipe serving a 75g. Meaning tuned with my return pump its 84% closed (21 of the available 25 qtr turns on my gate). I'm just glad its working and dead silent!
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