Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

Is enough air getting into the open channel, or is it acting as siphon as well?

What happens when you swap the roles of the siphon and open channel? Do the startup problems persist?

You drilled holes above the waterline on the siphon standpipe correct?

It sounds like the open channel is running at a partial siphon and refusing to give up its flow before the siphon standpipe is able to purge the air. Are you sure the siphon standpipe is air tight? Are any bubbles ejected from it during "regulated" operation?

 

[oldsaltman]

Is enough air getting into the open channel, or is it acting as siphon as well?

Yes, I have even taken the cap off it and it makes no diffrence.

What happens when you swap the roles of the siphon and open channel? Do the startup problems persist?

Yes, doesn't change anything.

You drilled holes above the waterline on the siphon standpipe correct?

Yes, I even tried moving the drain pipes up above the sump water level to see what happened and it didn't help

It sounds like the open channel is running at a partial siphon and refusing to give up its flow before the siphon standpipe is able to purge the air. Are you sure the siphon standpipe is air tight? Are any bubbles ejected from it during "regulated" operation?

It has to be air tight I don't see any way air could enter it, and I see no bubbles during it's normal opperation. I THINK THIS IS THE PROBLEM I JUST CAN'T FIND THE CURE.

 

[oldsaltman]

Is enough air getting into the open channel, or is it acting as siphon as well?

Yes, I have even taken the cap off it and it makes no diffrence.

What happens when you swap the roles of the siphon and open channel? Do the startup problems persist?

Yes, doesn't change anything.

You drilled holes above the waterline on the siphon standpipe correct?

Yes, I even tried moving the drain pipes up above the sump water level to see what happened and it didn't help

It sounds like the open channel is running at a partial siphon and refusing to give up its flow before the siphon standpipe is able to purge the air. Are you sure the siphon standpipe is air tight? Are any bubbles ejected from it during "regulated" operation?

It has to be air tight I don't see any way air could enter it, and I see no bubbles during it's normal opperation. I THINK THIS IS THE PROBLEM I JUST CAN'T FIND THE CURE.

 

[oldsaltman]

Sorry about the double post.

 

[anin]

oh ok thanks bean, the tank is 50, which isn't tempered, i called aga to confirm, your design although looks and performs awesome...

 

[anin]

hey mflamb, how is your setup running? is it silent?

Bean how bout if i did a overflow box like that of mflamb? that box size is good..better than a standard durso standpipe, where the overflow box would run from top to bottom of tank..

 

[zachtos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14157233#post14157233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
For my setup, they need to be individual standpipes. Combining them will not work.

If you put the "emergency" pipes in one compartment, the water will simply flood that compartment. You will in effect have only (1) overflow box.

Well, I'll wipe this off the project list and keep in mind for the next setup down the road. I would be interested in seeing the results if someone tried combined pipes though. Thanks.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The results are fairly predictable. The open channel depends on the free fall (open channel flow) of water. The siphon rate depends on the amount of "air-free" drop that the fluid undegoes. The shorter the siphon standpipe, the lower the siphon rate. So if you plumb the siphon and open channel together, you lose the siphon and the open channel and simply create a partial siphon in both pipes. Noisy and not anywhere near optimal flow for silence. You also lose the fail-safe features. I.E. you are back to regular Dursos.

 

[oldsaltman]

Bean, I hope I have solved my restarting problem, but I am not sure what did it? I lowered the full siphen about another inch ito the sump. I raised the small tube on top of the overflow cap to where it does not come into play unless the water level gets real high. I lowered the emergency bulkhead to where it works does come into play when the system first starts up. I have cycled it 8 or 10 times this morning and it started each time.
Do you turn yours off at feeding time? That is a lot of water dumping back into the sump each time.
My sump has three compartments fuge, skimmer and pump.
Where would you place each drain line?
Less flow in sump and more in skimmer?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, the return pump is shut down for feeding twice a day and the restarts itself ~20 minutes later.

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/555-based-aquarium-feeding-timer.aspx

Where should the discharge go? That is kind of up to you. The skimmer should not be fed more water than it is designed to handle. On the other hand a high flow sump is not really ideal with regard to processing all of the water through the skimmer. I am also a proponent of high flow refugia and do not see any advantage in low flow refugia.

 

[therealfatman]

Ooops.

 

[EnglishRebel]

Bean
I have a couple of basic questions so I can finish my plumbing design. I will have a 60" long tank with a 48" long x 12" high x 6" deep external overflow. I intend to have three 1-1/2" BeanAnimal standpipes exiting through the bottom of the overflow (so I can position my tank as close to the wall as possible). My tank is upstairs and the sump is in the basement equipment room so I have only a single 1-1/2" drain pipe.
Questions:

1. Will plumbing the three standpipes into a single 1-1/2" drain line defeat the purpose of your design?
2. Does it matter what order the standpipes are in relation to the direction of flow in the single 1-1/2" drain line (I need to have the valved standpipe first with the other two downstream)?
   [/list=1] Thanks

 

[eme]

Question for All -- why are you so determined to integrate all the pipes before entering the sump? It compromises the 'system' ( obviously) but both adds cost and delivers little space saving ??

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14175680#post14175680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnglishRebel
Bean
I have a couple of basic questions so I can finish my plumbing design. I will have a 60" long tank with a 48" long x 12" high x 6" deep external overflow. I intend to have three 1-1/2" BeanAnimal standpipes exiting through the bottom of the overflow (so I can position my tank as close to the wall as possible). My tank is upstairs and the sump is in the basement equipment room so I have only a single 1-1/2" drain pipe.
Questions:

1. Will plumbing the three standpipes into a single 1-1/2" drain line defeat the purpose of your design?
2. Does it matter what order the standpipes are in relation to the direction of flow in the single 1-1/2" drain line (I need to have the valved standpipe first with the other two downstream)?
   [/list=1] Thanks

1. 
   
   There are too many variables to predict exactly how the system will perform. As I mentioned above, it will likely not perform as expected. The single 1.5" pipe will cause the open channel and siphon standpipes to interact in an inwanted way. Many of the fail-safe features of the overflwo will be rendered useless.

 

[zachtos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14175964#post14175964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eme
Question for All -- why are you so determined to integrate all the pipes before entering the sump? It compromises the 'system' ( obviously) but both adds cost and delivers little space saving ??

Because I don't want to punch more holes in my living room floor.

 

[eme]

Just make the one hole bigger? -

 

[anin]

Bean, would having a smaller overflow box like the one mflamb made compared to calfo or coast to coast style make any difference in this type of setup? Also would it matter how strong the return pump is with this type of overflow?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Anin,

Most of your questions have been covered several times over the course of this thread. I know it is a long read, but it may help give you a better idea of the "how and why".

The standpipe setup has little to do with the overflow box itself. So yes, you can use an overflow box with less linear surface area. You lose a significant amount of surface skimming ability, increase noise due to the thicker sheet of water entering the box, etc... See any of the calfo overflow threads for more of an in depth discussion.

The standpipe setup will work, or can be adapted to, any size return pump. As described here, the setup will easily handle up to ~2000 GPH silently, with the bulk of the flow going through the single siphon standpipe.

Spend some time reading the thread and the article on my website, it is worth the time if you are insterested in using this setup.

 

[robertifly]

zachtos assuming your close to a wall you could put the down pipes in the wall between studs. Requires quite a desire and work but at least then the holes won't be in the living room floor, a real advantage in case you ditch the reef tank.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That is the only way I would do it