Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[reef2008]

Thanks Bean,

I agree with you on the room divider vs. the pennisula. I finally brought the tank home today and sat it in the room to acutally see what I would be working with and am swaying toward the room divider. With this in mind I will probably have overflows on each side of the tank for a total of 48" and more uniform skimming. What do you think of this idea? How would I setup drains if I were to do this?

You mentioned an external overflow, I've always read in the event of a power failure the overflow may loose its siphon and cause the return pump to overflow the tank and cause the pump to run dry. Is there a way to ensure the overflow would begin siphoning normally in the event power was returned without manual priming? If this is the case not lugging this heavy aquarium to have it drilled would be great. Again thank you for your help.

Thankyou for the info on the close loop that was my next area for developing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The logistics of trying to sync an overflow on EACH end of the tank is not likely worth the trouble. Produce good surface flow and the single 24" overflow will likely be fine. Use one end to feed the closed loops if you like.

By external overflow, I mean an external overflow box with the standpipes in it. In your case, you could feed the box with a very narrow internal weir that simply connects to the external box via a slot or a few holes. There are some examples in the original 40 pages of this thread....

 

[reef2008]

Thank you again,

I understand what you mean now. This would work great and I will probably use two closed loop systems to churn enough surface flow since there is such a long surface to be skimmed.

 

[KristyS96]

Perhaps this is a silly question, but I am working on building this very system for my new 90 gallon and was wondering if it absolutely had to be True Union ball valves?

If I don't use those what will I be losing?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I use unions (or true union valves) so that I can take the system apart of ever needed. You can opt to use standard ball valves with or without individual unions

 

[KristyS96]

Thank you! I kinda figured it was for ease of cleaning and/or breaking down if needed.

I have another question as well.. I have this filter (RM300)..

http://www.sealife-systems.com/reefmaster.html

Was wondering how you would suggest running the lines from the overflow. I was thinking that I could either run the 'siphon' and the 'open' to the bulk heads on the filter and run the emergency to the return area OR run the 'siphon' and 'emergency' to the bulkheads and the 'open' to the return area.

Is there a better way to do it?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your plan sounds ok as long os the input pipe below the bulkhead is perforated. If it is solid, then you may have problems getting the siphon to start and/or keeping things balanced.

 

[Willi]

Hey BeanAnimal,
Great stuff with the drain design. Question - I have (5) 1" drains in my external overflow and was planning on having 2 full siphon, 2 open channel and 1 emergency. Is there anything wrong with teeing the 2 full siphons together and using 1 ball valve to control them? I was also planning on teeing the 2 open channel's together. I apprecaite your thoughts and thank you.

 

[sikpupy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14183127#post14183127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Tony I would avoid the use of elbows if possible. Is there a way you can secure the plumbing below and/or above the valve?

Heya Bean, when you get a chance.....

I got my system up and running and was not going to post, as I am searching through the thread for answers, but, I ran across this post of yours. Now, either I forgot (which is usually the case), didn’t pay attention or it was not posted when I started the idea, with your help, but I have elbows in my system. I don’t have a picture of it right now, but I will try to describe.

From left to right... Open channel/Siphon/Overflow (all on right hand side of tank, centered between the middle plastic trim brace and right side of edge trim on a 90 gallon tank.)

Open channel - comes straight down to about 3" below bottom of tank and 90d elbow to left. This goes about 2-2.5ft and 90d elbows to front. Then, I have a 45d going down to a union, then a 45d out of the union to make it parallel and then to 45d's facing down because that was the shortest turn.

Siphon channel - down to 8" below bottom of tank (around that) and curves left, under the open channel (basically taking the same path). Then it 90d's to the front and I have another union on that. It comes straight towards the front with a 90d elbow facing down.

1) Uhm, how bad did I screw that setup up as is?

2) As for now, just to make sure I do not have any leaks and such, I have both pipes in the sump only 1/2" off the bottom. Obviously, that thing is noisy, lol. Can it be quieted or is there too many bends?

3) I could not use the HD bulkheads, so I used the cheap ones. The bottom of my overflow box is just under them, therefore, I have to saw off the turned down elbows a little. You go with 1/4" from the bottom of yours. Should I stick with that or adjust a little, and, the teeth I make, what’s a good depth for them? Is it okay to cut teeth all the way to the elbows transition (inner side)?

Will post some pics tonight. Oh, and I am running a pondmaster 7 pump on it. Supposed to put out 700gph, it was REAL cheap, lol.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14294978#post14294978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Willi
Hey BeanAnimal,
Great stuff with the drain design. Question - I have (5) 1" drains in my external overflow and was planning on having 2 full siphon, 2 open channel and 1 emergency. Is there anything wrong with teeing the 2 full siphons together and using 1 ball valve to control them? I was also planning on teeing the 2 open channel's together. I apprecaite your thoughts and thank you.

Teeing the siphons together to a common valve may or may not create an issue depending on how similar the standpipes are and hwo they are plumbed into the valve. The valve and lower portion of the pipe should cearly be twice the area of the single 1" standpipes.

Teeint the open channels together is another story. It will be hard to keep the quiet unless you tee them into a very large diameter common pipe.

 

[BeanAnimal]

sikpupy:

The setup is likely noisy because the open channel is trapping air and turning into a partial siphon. You could try running it to the sump on a slope instead of vertical and horizontal sections connected by elbows.

 

[sikpupy]

Ugh, thats what I was afraid of. Okay, I will see if I can re-route my pipes. I may have to turn my sump around though, oh well. Thanks for the responce.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yup, the open channel (or any durso, stockman, etc) relies on the free fall of water in air. If there is not a open air path inside the pipe at all times, then flow becomes turbulant and noisy.

 

[jeffrey_ropp]

Thanks again Bean for a great design.

I'm having a problem with adventurous snails making it over the wall (1/4" acrylic in my case). I'm considering a a layer of eggcrate sitting on top, but I'm not sure how to best attach it.

Can I use aquarium-safe silicone to bond the eggcrate to the overflow box? I've read that the silicone is "safe"once cured. Do I have any concerns using this product over a live tank?

Many thanks!
Jeff

 

[BeanAnimal]

Jeff,

I just let the snails roam where they please. Sure, some get wedged in the intakes and die, but they don't affect the system much,

You can use silicone to bond the eggcrate. However, you may be making a platform for fish to land on an die. How about little 3 sided eggcrate guards to fit around the standpipes. They will keep the snails from getting caught in the standpips themselves.

 

[Altikesimoglu]

Hi BeanAnimal,

I think this is the most useful thread in RC history, so thanks...

I have a question though. I am at the stage of construction of my new 120 gallon tank and my overflow will be external based on your SFOS. My bulkheads are 1 1/2 '' but my return is only 600 GPH (Eheim 1260). My only valve will be on the siphon line. The open channel bulkhead is ca. 1/2'' higher than the siphon. The box is 20'' long, 5'' wide and 6 3/4'' high. My question is whether the size of my bulkheads is an overkill for that capacity of return so that I could not adjust the siphon properly in a box which is not so high.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you for the kind words from Turkey...

You should be fine. The valve on the siphon standpipe will allow you to significantly reduce the flow through it. The system should still function very silently without further modification.

 

[sikpupy]

Well, I need to chime in a little with some positive, negative and general statements from my finding for the mass public, just for the record. Oh, and a question for Bean.

First, thank you Bean, awesome idea and works out DEAD silent, but, with a few caveats.

1) I am thinking and maybe, just maybe 1 1/2 piping is too big for a 90 gallon tank. This is because no matter what I did, I could not get the sound of someone pouring water, in the open channel pipe, to go away........... for the time being....

2) Do NOT use a ball valve. They are the BIGGEST pain in the @$$ things to adjust, and, if that was not bad enough, you can not get precise with them, without spending a heck of an amount of time twisting back and forth, back and forth.

Now, to address 1 and 2 in dialog. I was all set to set and forget, hmm..... I spent all day sat twisting the ball valve knob back and forth, literally 6 hours, trying to get it precise. I twist to the right and it goes past my point of choice. Okay, I will twist it to the left then, right? Well, I ease the lever to the left, it does not budge. I twist a little harder and harder and harder. When I finally think I am going to break something, it lets lose and goes past my mark and right back the place it was before. Do this 20/30 times, it blows! Some will say to put grease on it. That would be fine I guess, but, eventually it will wear off? If you go to a different pump output or do like I do and branch off to the fuge or tune down the pump with a t, then you may need to adjust again and whoops, there you are. Do yourself a favor and get a gate valve, I wish I did. The extra $$ will be worth it, and, if you have to crank it 100 times to open or close, so be it. Just open it up all the way till it is slurping all the water, then close it until it stops and do your final adjusting.

Along comes Sunday morning, I was fresh, the day was early and I greeted the tank with surprising enthusiasm (I was so burnt the night before from messing with it for so long). I grabbed my soda (I am not much of a coffee drinker) and started to turn the ball valve knob. Surprisingly, it slipped right into place where I wanted it, with its usual momentary resistance cracking sound (another reason for the gate valve). Then, I noticed right away something was different, it got silent quickly. From fizzing, glucking and toilet flushing sounds to slow fizzing and then to silence, all in 1 minute! Then, all I heard was "hummmmmmmmmmmmmm", from the pump, that was all!? I almost choked on my coke in excitement it was so silent. In fact, there was not even a sound of a trickle of water! I was unwary of the fact that it was so silent, I thought it was a fluke, so, I checked out all water levels, looked things over and then stopped the pump. I let everything drain and restarted. It was.....dead silent! I restarted the pump 3 more times to make sure, and eureka I DID IT!!! . Well, Bean actually did it, I was just the laborer.

The last thing I noticed, is there is NO water coming from the open channel? This is why I am wondering if 1 1/2 is too big for a 90g. It was not dead silent until i had ALL the flow going into the siphon. I know the open channel is supposed to be extra drainage, but, no matter how small the flow of water in the open channel, even if it was a trickle, it sounded horrible! The ONLY way it was "dead" silent is if there was NO water in the open channel. Also, even a small amount of water produced tiny fizzy bubbles in the open channel. I would need to do some more experimenting with that hole bean was talking about to see if that stopped the bubbles, but, I know that at a medium flow, it does not. I tested it that much with a 1/8 drill bit.

P.S. Bean, would one be better using a regular sanitary T rather than a street T on the open channel? I ask this because when I look into the open channel, when it was draining quite a bit at the time, I noticed the water would channel down the curve and straight into the middle of the pipe. This would in turn also give it a lot of velocity and make it sound like the toilet flushing. I was thinking that a regular T may not stop it, but, it would help keep the velocity down, and, instead of the water falling perfectly in the middle of the tube, it would tend to cling to the sides more. Now, albeit, also, I could have just way too much water in the open channel at that time, but I still think, enough to comment on it that a regular T might be a more viable option. Only problem is, I have no proof or data to back it up, lol.

So, take the info for what it is worth, I hope I shed a little light on the subject . Those that have 1 1/2 all the way through, let me/us know how you have yours setup and how quiet it is.

Again though, thanks Bean, its awsome!!

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14361611#post14361611 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sikpupy
Well, I need to chime in a little with some positive, negative and general statements from my finding for the mass public, just for the record. Oh, and a question for Bean.

First, thank you Bean, awesome idea and works out DEAD silent, but, with a few caveats.

1) I am thinking and maybe, just maybe 1 1/2 piping is too big for a 90 gallon tank. This is because no matter what I did, I could not get the sound of someone pouring water, in the open channel pipe, to go away........... for the time being....

A few notes here:

A) the use of the Sanitary Tee (or an elbow) helps to allow the water to cascade down the open channel instead of splashing down. (answering you last question as well) Canting the open channel to the side slightly would also prevent the waterfall effect. As you guessed, the idea behind the open channel is to allow the water to cascade/sheet down the pipe instead of free falling or causing a partial siphon.

B) Smaller open channels standpipes or higher flows through the open channel will create a partial siphon that will force a lot fo air into the standpipe. In general the larger the diamter of the pipe, the more apt the water is to sheet or cascade quietly.

C) As noted in several places in the thread, the setup can be scalled to smaller plumbing for low flow sumps. The 1.5" standpipes are accomodating over 2000 GPH of flow on my 75G tank but I have tested the setup from about 300 GPH and up. A smaller pipe may run fuller, but will run at a partial siphon if it gets too full.

2) Do NOT use a ball valve. They are the BIGGEST pain in the @$$ things to adjust, and, if that was not bad enough, you can not get precise with them, without spending a heck of an amount of time twisting back and forth, back and forth.

A tiny bit of silicone grease makes the adjustment very easy. A little on the stem and just a thin film on the ball itself.

In any case, the beauty is that once this system is tuned, it does not need to be fiddled with again. If you change return pumps, the process can easily be repeated.

If it is that much of an issue, then you can try a gate valve. The only problem with a gate valve (and the reason I did not use one) is that the stems tend to leak after moving them a few times. They will more than likely allow air to be drawn into the siphon... making things harder to keep tuned AND forcing itty-bitty bubbles into the sump.

If you try one and have long term success with it, let me know. All of the PVC gate valves I have used have leaky stems after a year or so.

The last thing I noticed, is there is NO water coming from the open channel? This is why I am wondering if 1 1/2 is too big for a 90g. It was not dead silent until i had ALL the flow going into the siphon. I know the open channel is supposed to be extra drainage, but, no matter how small the flow of water in the open channel, even if it was a trickle, it sounded horrible! The ONLY way it was "dead" silent is if there was NO water in the open channel. Also, even a small amount of water produced tiny fizzy bubbles in the open channel. I would need to do some more experimenting with that hole bean was talking about to see if that stopped the bubbles, but, I know that at a medium flow, it does not. I tested it that much with a 1/8 drill bit.

It sounds like part of your adjustment problems stem from the standpipe configuration and the fact that the open channel is not behaving properly. At low flow, it should not produce fine bubbles in the discharge. If it does, that means that it is drawing a partial siphon or the water is free falling straight down the center of the pipe and causing a lot of splashing noise and air when it meets the sump. However, it is very hard to diagnose a problem from text descriptions

Part of the improvement over a "herbie" setup (what you setup is running like) is the fact that the open channel takes part of the flow and therefore adds operating bandwidth the the siphon, reducing the need for such fine adjustment.

I am glad the setup is working for you, albiet not exactly as designed.

If you use a gate valve, please do report back.

 

[sikpupy]

Yes, I noted that the pipes can be scaled to lower flows, that’s why I was saying that 1 ½ might be too big for a 90g. People should, if they could, experiment before the final glue down. I have no room, and I mean no room between the sani T and the wall. Squeezing in for refitting or what have you is next to impossible. Perfect for me means NO water down the open drain. While it still works for me, something seems amiss (not incorrect) about what you observed working for you and what I observed working for me. I am using a 700gph pondmaster pump below in a sump. I am just throwing the info out there for others to use to their needs, and for setup comparisons.

I am not about to touch that valve now that it’s set, lol. Maybe if I upgrade to another pump sometime in the future…. How in the world do you get some grease on the stem?

I can not say much for a gate valve, never used one. Not sure I could if I wanted to. No room back there means no adding or subtracting parts. It is what it is and unfortionitly will stay that way (not by my choice). I would hope that a gate valve would not leak, that would be a joke! Being as I have no experience in that department, I will now bow out of that conversation .

I am not sure if I had “low flow” in the open drain when I was first playing around with it. Not sure what is considered low flow in the realm of this setup. I do know that the flow I was dealing with, before, would flow with some serious velocity and perfectly free fall right in the middle of the pipe. Now, this is when the water level was 2/3 below the top of the elbow. I teased my GF that the setup sounded exactly like a fairly quiet dishwasher. Hum of my noisy pump and the swishing sound of water. Odd thing was that there was no gurgling anymore (getting closer) after I took out all those 90 bends. I reconfigured to 2 45’s. One went angled from back to front and then downward. After this, I went from gurgling and swooshing to just swooshing. I don’t think I was ever able to get it tuned to have the open trickle. I could hear it trickle when I turned off the pump, which it did till every last drop was out. I did not think I was going to make it “dead silent” with the open draining. Sunday morning when it all of a sudden went silent, and I saw no bubbles coming out of the open pipe, I was curious as to how much water was flowing in the open channel. When I popped off the lower part of the piping, nothing came out??? Hmmmm………. Hey, whatever, it works for me now .

Oh, one last thing for the records. When the open was draining water, I would sometimes submerge the tube coming out of the john guest fitting, at the top, into the water just to watch the open turn into a siphon and drain the overflow. Hey, was playing and learning, lol. I noticed that the longer the tube was under water, till it pulled full siphon, the nosier the water got in the open channel pipe. I am not even going to speculate, just wanted to make a note for the masses what I encountered. They can then draw their own conclusions, I am burnt and thankfully finished trying to figure it out, lol.

Thanks again Bean, be it they way you designed or whatever, works awesome!!

On to the NEXT hellish project! Okay, it wasnt that bad but it was loooong comming. Hole saw one week, incorrect bulkheads the next week, the correct bulkheads the week after.... Every step was week here or there. Took me a month in a half to get it all together, but it is finished ~he says taking a long drag on a cigarette~!

P.S. If I DO ever put a gate valve on, I owe ya one so I will definitly report back, its the least I could do for you.