Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

I think part of the problems are related to the location of your sump in relation to the overflow box. The plumbing configuration has thrown a few variables into the equation that have made it a bit harder to deal with.

As to your other observation: Yes, as the open channel turns into a siphon (by allowing the air intake to become submerged), it will get rather loud and cause a lot of flushing and gurgling until it turns to a full siphon and drains the overflow.

 

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14364418#post14364418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sikpupy
..... the pipes can be scaled to lower flows, that’s why I was saying that 1 ½ might be too big for a 90g....

Just to throw in some data from my setup here, I am running this overflow setup on my 120 gallon. All of my plumbing is 1" and I am pushing somewhere in the ballpark of 1000 gph (MAG 12 minus head pressure) and the system is SILENT. I have a small bit of water trickling out of the open channel. The siphon pipe is regulated by a ball valve about 25% closed (just guessing on this)

I will add that my sump is situated directly below the overflow box and I only have two 45° fittings on each pipe that allows them to make the turn under the tank, which seems to streamline the flow a bit.

Very intelligent and well planned design.

 

[sikpupy]

Here is how I had the plumbing before with the 90d elbows. You can not really see them behine the MSX skimmer

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/csmc1013/3271111828/" title="oldsmpdsgn2 by jwwgo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3376/3271111828_ed19d80b81.jpg" width="500" height="291" alt="oldsmpdsgn2" /></a>

Overflow setup, but, now the safty drain it on the left where in this picture it is on the right

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/csmc1013/3270251753/" title="DSC02384 by jwwgo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3327/3270251753_3dc21f320b.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC02384" /></a>

Once I changed the safty overflow i was able to route the pipes below like this. Notice the siphon and open channel in the right side of the sump. you can see my little 3/4 ball valve and pipe that goes up and then curves back to the left into the fuge. Also, going into the fuge was one of the original drains, the old open channel. Since I am now using it as a safty, I didnt care about the curves.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/csmc1013/3271072118/" title="DSC02390 by jwwgo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/3271072118_c679447e7e.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC02390" /></a>




here is my tank setup now

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/csmc1013/3271111712/" title="DSC02388 by jwwgo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3467/3271111712_902bbb078f.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC02388" /></a>

Next is some live rock

 

[sikpupy]

And after that, I need to learn how to spell "safty" :rolleye1:

 

[jeffrey_ropp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14353004#post14353004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Jeff,

I just let the snails roam where they please. Sure, some get wedged in the intakes and die, but they don't affect the system much,

You can use silicone to bond the eggcrate. However, you may be making a platform for fish to land on an die. How about little 3 sided eggcrate guards to fit around the standpipes. They will keep the snails from getting caught in the standpips themselves.

Thanks Bean.

Rather than allowing the snails to get trapped, I've wrapped the standpipes in 1/4" netting. This seem to be a good balance between a finer filter and eggcrate with some flexibility for wrapping. I used a zip tie to keep the netting in place.

Hopefully that helps some others.

Best,

 

[2_zoa]

sikpuppy,

Where is your air intake for the open channel stand pipe? That must be your problem.

 

[sikpupy]

Hello, thanks for the reply. If you look at the last picture, you will see a yellow tube coming out the top of the right standpipe. I have tried it with the top off, on, tube in , tube out, full adjustment of one of those air pump air valves etc etc etc and I still get fine bubbles if ANY water comes out of the open channel pipe. I guess it would be good for oxygen exchange, but.......

 

[2_zoa]

Well, Yea I see a yellow tube there but there is no indication that it goes to the drains. Now after a closer look it also appears that the orientation of the pipes is different as well. The emergency drain is now on the other end.

Well, I tired sorry I couldn't help.


Bean,

I have a question for you on a surge device. How can I ask you. I don't really want to start another thread.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just ask here...

 

[2_zoa]

Well as stated I want to make a surge devise. I know this is not the best way to go about it but it will allow me to get going until later on, if I decide to do a fancy one. Any way,

I came across this about a year ago,
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1466969

So my question is, Can I use your open channel design in place of this design. Yours uses one less fitting and give a easier or more clean run of the air intake.

Does it really matter where the air is introduced?

 

[sikpupy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14390250#post14390250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 2_zoa

Well, I tired sorry I couldn't help.

I appreciate that, thank you.

 

[teesquare]

Wow!!!......
46 pages of great information BeAn! I have read all of it. Great!
Please give me your input on my plans. Tank is ordered, and Perfecto is waiting on me to sign off on hole layout:

Perfecto Deep Dimension 250g - 60"L x 36"D x 27"H
2-OM 4's fed with 2- 2" screen intakes at bottom of tank on right end ( with the tees and ells that Paul at OM likes below internal overflow box - internal is as you described)
8-1'' returns to bottom of tank - from the OM 4s, powered by a 5800 gph Hammerhead.
Tank will be plumbed to basement,where sump and refugium will be (approx. 12 feet to basement floor from main floor as a height reference.) I expect vertical drop of 7-8 feet . I understand flow restriction, so plumping will follow good sense rules.
Here are the dilema(s) <G>:
As this will go into my office -(and there is already a 360 gal in there) I am tight on space, and by necessity of location, the tank will only be viewable on the front, and left end. And from a practical aspect, I cannot locate the overflow to the back of the tank (space and - difficult to maintain, reaching across 36" of tank) SO my only option is an internal overflow on the right end of the tank. I intend to drill upper right of tank back for the sump returns. I had Paul at Oceans Motions input on closed loop and sump return layout.
I have a second Hammerhead I want to use for the sump return, and can valve off some of the flow to feed skimmer, refugium, etc.

Questions:
1. If I use 2" pipe in the overflow for all 3 pipes - what kind of flow potential is realistic. Meaning quiet flow. I know - I am just asking what you"gut" tells you.
2. Do you have a suggestion, or formula for sizing the 2 dimensions of the overflow? Height of front glass, and depth from front to back?
3.Method to calculate centerline of holes for bulkheads as measured from bottom lip of trim inside the tank?

I truly would appreciate your input to these. I think I have though it out well, but - I am inviting any readers to respond as well.

All I need to go forward is to be sure that I am locating the holes in the right end wall of the tank correctly, then I can get to it!
Thanks Again for an incredible idea!
T

 

[teesquare]

er...BeAn....? Anybody home....?
T

 

[sikpupy]

Only one day bro, give it time. I am amazed and honered that Bean would even stick around this long to have answered *me*. If I was Bean, I would just give the basics and say good luck, lol. Not that I am generally a jerk, just too many other things going on to sit and aswer all the time. Bean is nice enough to take his time to answer up to now, so, give him a few days, he should pop back on sometime.

 

[teesquare]

Didn't mean to sound panicky.... just working with some deadlines, and found out about this overflow method later than I wish....
Sorry - I will put down the caffeine now.......

T

 

[sikpupy]

Oh, I understand about chomping at the bit. I was getting my tank and ran across this article. By the time I got the tank, read enough about drilling holes, got the drill bit, drilled the hole, measured and got the glass.....etc etc, once finished it was like 3 months. Actually 4 if you want to count getting the fuge set up, pump and return plumbing done. Hey, if perfecto's getting your money, tell them to just hang tight .

 

[teesquare]

Yeah - they are waiting for me to sign-off on the drawings for the hole size and locations....
But the real issues are that I have already paid for it in full - most importantly, I am going to sneak this thing in and set it up while my wife is out of town <G>............
What is that old addage: "It is easier to ask forgiveness than for permission". At least I am hoping it is.

So if you hear a blood-curdling scream from out my way - it is not her... It is me, probably being "Bobbit-ized"....
T

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14406034#post14406034 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare

Questions:
1. If I use 2" pipe in the overflow for all 3 pipes - what kind of flow potential is realistic. Meaning quiet flow. I know - I am just asking what you"gut" tells you.

Just a pure guess here:

A 1.5" pipe has 1.77" square inches of area.
A 2.0" pipe has 3.14" square inches of area.

With a 1.5" standpipe (and 1" bulkheads) I can do over 2000 GPH (most of it through the siphon) over a 2.5' drop. So twice the area and twice the drop should in theory provide at least twice the flow. My guess would be in the 4k to 5k range if it is a straight drop to the sump. We could figure it out using some basic formulas if you need to go that far...

2. Do you have a suggestion, or formula for sizing the 2 dimensions of the overflow? Height of front glass, and depth from front to back?

Deep enough and wide enough to fit your elbows onto the bulkheads and also get your hands into work.

3.Method to calculate centerline of holes for bulkheads as measured from bottom lip of trim inside the tank?

That depends on the depth of your box. But I would keep the top edge of the holes at least 1.5 hole diameters away from the tank rim (for strength).


I hope that helps... If I have some time I will see if I can run some real world flow numbers through a few equations.

 

[teesquare]

Thanks Bean!
I really appreciate your input.
I had guessed (based on the 2" being approx. triple the area of 1" pipe) that a low of 3000 gph to a high of 6000 gph. I have a Hammerhead that I would like to use. It is rated at 5800 gph. Maybe I should look at a little smaller pump? Because the overflow will only be 35"( it is across the right end of the tank.....) and I am concerned with the sound generated by the water falling into the overflow at the flow rate potential represented by the plumbing size (2") and the pump selection (currently Hammerhead)

The diam x 1.5 distance form top edge: same rule of thumb for euro braced tank ?
Again -I am profusely grateful for your help here. I took a 5 year sabatical from the hobby - and it is incredible, the number of new things I am learning again. Makes it more fun!
One other question - for the emergency drain, what about using female adapter then a male adapter screwed into that, as a "fine adjustment" for setting for max. water height?
Thanks ( sound of groveling goes here)
T

 

[NewAndrew]

Silent Overflow modernization

Silent Overflow modernization

Mr BeanAnimal,
First - thanks for very informative and helpful thread.
And a question: have you ever thought to use internal-box type overflow not only for surface skimming (very thin layer of surface water moved to skimmer, sump etc.) but for water from tank's deeper layers (usually rich in debris and heavier soluble unwanted particles)? I just thought about adding pipe with strainer going down from internal overflow box through bulkhead, and upper part ending just like your face-down elbow, with several holes just above glass bottom of overflow box to break syphon when return pump is off.
Your opinion would be appreciated very much.
A