Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14420134#post14420134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Thanks Bean!
I really appreciate your input.
I had guessed (based on the 2" being approx. triple the area of 1" pipe) that a low of 3000 gph to a high of 6000 gph. I have a Hammerhead that I would like to use. It is rated at 5800 gph. Maybe I should look at a little smaller pump? Because the overflow will only be 35"( it is across the right end of the tank.....) and I am concerned with the sound generated by the water falling into the overflow at the flow rate potential represented by the plumbing size (2") and the pump selection (currently Hammerhead)

Theat total head will end up being around 10' (static + friction) so I would guess (have not looked at the pump curve) that the flow will be around 4250 or so. I think the standpipes will handle it, but the water going over the weir is going to be 1/2" or thicker. It will be more like a waterfall than a gentle cascade.

The diam x 1.5 distance form top edge: same rule of thumb for euro braced tank ?

Yeah... it has more to do with the integrity of the glass than anything else. A eurobrace is going to make your box harder to work in though

for the emergency drain, what about using female adapter then a male adapter screwed into that, as a "fine adjustment" for setting for max. water height?

That would likely work just fine.

As with some of the other setups, it may be prudent to move the open channel standpipe up 1/2" or so in relation to the siphon standpipe. This will ensure that it is easy to get tuned in.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Re: Silent Overflow modernization

Re: Silent Overflow modernization

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14422131#post14422131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewAndrew
Mr BeanAnimal,
First - thanks for very informative and helpful thread.
And a question: have you ever thought to use internal-box type overflow not only for surface skimming (very thin layer of surface water moved to skimmer, sump etc.) but for water from tank's deeper layers (usually rich in debris and heavier soluble unwanted particles)? I just thought about adding pipe with strainer going down from internal overflow box through bulkhead, and upper part ending just like your face-down elbow, with several holes just above glass bottom of overflow box to break syphon when return pump is off.
Your opinion would be appreciated very much.
A

If the particles are soluble, then they will be rather homogenuous in a tank with proper flow. They will be surface skimmed away at the same rate, no matter where the water is drawn from.

The insoluble debris tends to settle rather quickly. It would take a tremendous volume of flow to"suck" it into the overflow. You then have to do something with it when you get it there (mechanical filtration).

Also, as the debris becomes water logged, it tends to break down into small more particles that can be removed by surface skimming and your protien skimmer, filter socks, etc.

Neat idea, but I just don't see a benefit based on the amount of flow that the setup would take from the bottom layers of the tank. Also, siphon break holes would make the setup hard to start and balance. It would be much easier to increase the flow in the display (closed loops, powerheads, etc) to keep the debris suspended long enough to be removed by the surface skimmer.

 

[NewAndrew]

Thank you, BeanAnimal, for fast and clear response !

 

[sikpupy]

I am going to play devils advocate and say it “may” work……but, there are a few but’s….. Seeing as how my water level is at least, if not more, than 1” from the bottom of the turned down elbow (would be more if I didn’t trim it for my shallow box) anything under that you could put in a drainback hole, preferably an inch under the elbows neck, to not mess with the draining. Look at my pics REAL close, you can see the water level is high in the over flow box. I don’t see how a hole in the elbow would matter. Its just like the teeth I made, and in the drawing. They do not mess with anything and actually may help to stop eddy currents (just a guess, no proof). So, now, when you turn off the pump, and the water goes down to the hole, as long as you have a sump that can hold an extra large capacity of water, I do not see any problems right off hand (will get to the possible problems shortly). Turn the return pump on and water level goes up over hole. Then it equalizes, and continues to rise like normal, no problems yet.

Now comes the possible problems.

1) Drainback â€"œ I have observed my return pump piping sucking water back into the tank. I expected that and was ready with pieces parts for play and experiment. What I found is that if you have a small hole, it takes time for enough air to be drawn in and stop the reverse suction. I had smaaaaal hole, like 1/16 and it would drain my 90 about ¾ an inch below the overflow. I did not like that, that was too much water, even though my sump could handle it, I wanted less water to drain back. Then I made a 1/8 hole and that STILL seems to drain a good 6 gallons or so before it stops. Now, that is 1/8 hole x 2 return pipes. How much of a hole to make in the turned down elbow you would need to make to stop your sump from over flowing is???? Now, this follows into the second possible problem,
2) Sucking up crud from the bottom. â€"œ Alas, like Bean said, you would need a LOT of suction to get wheat your looking for, however (I like that word ) there IS a substantial amount of suction 1/8” away from the outer edge of the/my over flow elbow, but, I also have the elbow 1/8 â€"œ ¼ from the bottom too. So, as long as you have something solid, close, under the elbow, you will get a nice suction. Next problem, to clean your tank the way you want, you would have to make sure the power heads or whatever you use blow s everything around good, and, right to where the long pipe at the bottom is. If it is blowing so hard in your tank that it blows the crud right past the pipe, not much good. That would take some experimenting to accomplish I would think. Fun project, but, I have to pass. Lastly, remember that big hole you put in to the elbow for drainback? How much of that suction at the bottom do you lose because of it? Now, to help out on the design part, maybe if you dug a hole out in the sand (assuming were going with 3” for practical purposes) and made like a sump area where all the crud dropped into, that would work (don’t forget something solid on the bottom.).

So, this is not a tried and true method by any means, but I think it could be put into practice, though maybe not 100% effective as we would want it. But, for the sake of experimenting, please please do it, lol. I am burnt on experimenting with my tank (6 months in the making) and just want to enjoy it. I need new fresh talent to do my dirty work for me. :bum: <--- supposed to be a pimp :lol:

 

[nazerine]

Hi BeanAnimal,

I want to thank you for all the wonderful ideas you have provided, along with help to users using your ideas!

Try as I might, but I cannot keep up with this thread!

I am planning to implement your overflow and drain design, but am curious about how it will work with a wave maker or device of the type.

Would a wave maker change/effect the water height in an overflow running the length of the tank ? (48x18x22" standard 75g). I don't want to have to adjust the overflow water height too often.

Any advice on the subject?

Thanks again!

 

[BeanAnimal]

It really depends on how big and what frequency the "waves" are. In practice you would set the overflow to run with as little flow through the open channel as possible, thus allowing it to pick up the bulk of the surges.

I am sorry, but I just can't provide any real world numbers as have only done a little bit of messing around with a wave maker (dump box).

 

[sikpupy]

As far as the height goes, I would just set the flow with a smooth surface, aka no waves. You can then run your wave maker. I am sure it will fill with more water than normal, but, once the wave maker is turned off, it should settle back to normal and need no adjusting.

For what its worth, I dont think it would be quiet with the wave maker on, if thats a concern. When I shove my hand in the tank and it makes waves, the open channel responds accordingly with flushing, draining sounds.

 

[2_zoa]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14394903#post14394903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 2_zoa
Well as stated I want to make a surge devise. I know this is not the best way to go about it but it will allow me to get going until later on, if I decide to do a fancy one. Any way,

I came across this about a year ago,
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1466969

So my question is, Can I use your open channel design in place of this design. Yours uses one less fitting and give a easier or more clean run of the air intake.

Does it really matter where the air is introduced?

 

[Falcn]

Hi Bean - what a brilliant thread, as everyone has said - informative and clear. Having read just about every post on the thread I have been impressed enough to go with this design, even against the advice of at least two local tank builders.

So I have just received my new tank 46" x 22" x 27", with a coast to coast (almost) across the right hand side. Drilled for 32mm bulkheads. The plumbing will be 32mm all the way to allow for a much bigger flow when I build the new sump house.

The builder did insist on having teeth on the overflow cover. I'll see how it goes, but these may have to come off.

Plumbing has yet to arrive. I will keep you posted as to the expected success ;-)

 

[BeanAnimal]

2_ZOA

I am not sure I understand your question. In any case, The closer to the standpipes weir, the better. The idea is to introduce air to keep a siphon from forming.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Falcn

Thank you for the kind words. As for the builders advice not to use the overflow design... well some people just don't get it or would rather appear to be smart by commenting on subjects that they are not well versed on Besides, if you don't like it, there is no harm done, they are just standpipes and can be configured to run a Durso, or any other type of drain.

It appears that one of thole bulkhead holes is a bit lower than the others... I would use that one for the siphon standpipe.

Let us know how the build goes.

 

[2_zoa]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14449841#post14449841 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
2_ZOA

I am not sure I understand your question. In any case, The closer to the standpipes weir, the better. The idea is to introduce air to keep a siphon from forming.

Right, I am asking you about siphons in general. I want to build a surge device.

The question is does it matter where the air is introduced to break the siphon?

Did you look at the link I posted for you?

 

[gem]

Bean...I'm getting ready to put this overflow into my new 110 gal. I've had the tank drilled for 1 inch bulkheads. I have most of the plumbing. I still need to get the ball valves and John Guest fitting. I'm having a hard time finding that fitting. Can you tell me where I might get it and maybe a stock # or something? Appreciate the help on that.
Also, I'm going with a coast to coast overflow box. The box will be made of acryllic and the tank is glass. Any pointers on securing acryllic to glass? I have been told this just doesn't work.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The air needs to enter at or near the weir. If air is introduced further downstream, a siphon can still exist to that point.

 

[teesquare]

Ginger:
I apologize for butting in here - there are not glues or silcones available to us that will bond glass to acrylic.

Bean- I just saw your response to my 2nd set of questions - thanks again. I am going forward with the design as is, ( yep - I am raising one hole 1/2 for the open channel) knowing that the possibility exists that I will either have to throttle down the pump some, or add something like needlepoint fabric to the overflow box for quieting it down.
Thanks,
T

 

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14453527#post14453527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Ginger:
I apologize for butting in here - there are not glues or silcones available to us that will bond glass to acrylic.

But a good quality silicone, if properly applied, will hold an acrylic overflow to the glass just fine for years.

Its not as strong as the (silicate) bond that silicone forms with glass, but it works with acrylic as well, especially on a "coast-to-coast" type of overflow box as the seams arent really that far underwater and therefore experience much less pressure on them.



And for the John Guest fitting for the airline, any Big Box hardware store should have them with the plumbing fittings.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Lowes stocks the "Watts" brand of "john guest" style fittings.

 

[rguyler]

Bean, have you found that lowering the siphon standpipe below the open and emergency pipes provides a specific benefit? I've seen this mentioned but must have missed the underlying reason for doing so.

Also, how much benefit do you think you are getting by using 1.5" pipe even though you are using 1" bulkheads? Do you really believe it's much of a performance boost over running 1" all the way?

Just asking asking your valued opinion... ;-)

Also Bean, thanks a million for your informative posts!

 

[teesquare]

I must have not understood something in Ginger's question - is this an external or internal box that you are attaching?
If it is internal - Meuser is correct.
But if you are talking about an exterior box - I would not trust silicone on acrylic. It is not intended for this use, and it will fail you.
T

 

[rguyler]

Assuming it's an internal box (per this thread) then I also plan to use the bulkheads to keep the box attached. I made a complete 5-sided box for my overflow and will drill through both tank and box for the bulkheads. I'll use silicon too of course but the bulkheads give me a little more peace of mind.