Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
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Sisterlimonpot
Premium Member
I need a measurement
I need a measurement
Without combing through all these posts, can someone give me the measurement of the distance from the back of the tank to the most end point of the plumbing that extrudes out from the three 1.5" standpipes?
i'm planning the traditional layout from the tank, drill a hole, place a 1.5" threaded bulkhead, Immediately a "T", plumbing goes straight down with 45 degree bend so that the gate valve/ball valves will be plumbed under the tank.
Depending on the answer, I may want to drop down to 1.25". Would that be advisable for a 300 gallon tank?
I need a measurement
Without combing through all these posts, can someone give me the measurement of the distance from the back of the tank to the most end point of the plumbing that extrudes out from the three 1.5" standpipes?
i'm planning the traditional layout from the tank, drill a hole, place a 1.5" threaded bulkhead, Immediately a "T", plumbing goes straight down with 45 degree bend so that the gate valve/ball valves will be plumbed under the tank.
Depending on the answer, I may want to drop down to 1.25". Would that be advisable for a 300 gallon tank?
U are looking at 5.5” to 6” using a common bulkhead if u use a slip bulkhead & not a threaded on the nutt side of the bulkhead. If u use a threaded u will have to use threaded coupling to connect the bulkhead to the tee, & that will add another 1” to 2” depending on the coupling u use. By using a slip bulkhead on the nutt side of the bulkhead u can get the tee to where it is all the way against the bulkhead.
They also sell short bulkheads that can save about 1” in space behind the tank. So if u use a short, slip bulkhead u can only extrude 4.5” to 5” from the back of the tank. Most regular 1.5” bulkheads stick out 2” from the back of the tank. The short ones only stick out 1”.
So in 1.5” u are looking at
1- regular size slip bulkhead 5.5” to 6”
2- regular sized threaded bulkhead. 6.5” to 7.5”
3- short bulkhead(which I believe are all slip on the nutt side) 4.5” to 5”
They also sell short bulkheads that can save about 1” in space behind the tank. So if u use a short, slip bulkhead u can only extrude 4.5” to 5” from the back of the tank. Most regular 1.5” bulkheads stick out 2” from the back of the tank. The short ones only stick out 1”.
So in 1.5” u are looking at
1- regular size slip bulkhead 5.5” to 6”
2- regular sized threaded bulkhead. 6.5” to 7.5”
3- short bulkhead(which I believe are all slip on the nutt side) 4.5” to 5”
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Sisterlimonpot
Premium Member
Lsufan,
Thank you, that's exactly the information was looking for.
Thank you, that's exactly the information was looking for.
Why do we need all these elbows?
I am planning to use Modular Marine overflow for my next tank. I look at how people plumb the external boxes and see that people use a down turn elbow for the full siphon and a slightly higher down turn elbow for the open channel. Why?
Wouldn't it more practical to use a short straight pipe for the full siphon, a longer straight pipe for the open channel, and the longest straight pipe for the emergency drain?
This would make installation easier and being able to see into the open channel allows you to adjust the water level in the box to a thin laminar flow easily.
I am planning to use Modular Marine overflow for my next tank. I look at how people plumb the external boxes and see that people use a down turn elbow for the full siphon and a slightly higher down turn elbow for the open channel. Why?
Wouldn't it more practical to use a short straight pipe for the full siphon, a longer straight pipe for the open channel, and the longest straight pipe for the emergency drain?
This would make installation easier and being able to see into the open channel allows you to adjust the water level in the box to a thin laminar flow easily.
As far as the syphon, if u extend a pipe out of the bulkhead & don’t have any 90’s then it can make sort of a vortex & suck air every once in a while. Especially with the smaller exterior boxes that most people get with the ghost type overflows. If u wanted to go that route I would just skip the pipe completely & put a strainer straight on the bulkhead. Doing it that way it will more then likely be low enough in the box so it won’t suck any air.
As far as the open channel, it would make more noise if u leavebit open on the top & would be loud if u have much flow at all going through it. One of the purposes of the open channel is so the system remains quiet with a little flunctuation in the system. With a open pipe u may be able to get it dialed in to where it may be quiet, but any flunctuation it would get loud & u would have to adjust the valve. One of beans goals when he came up with the setup was to pretty much have a system u can set & forget. So not have to constantly be adjusting the valve. Plumbing size makes a difference but I havnt touched the valve on eighther of my setups in years.
So imo, u could get by with just a pipe on the emergency, just a strainer straight on the bulkhead for the syphon, but I would make the U bend for the open channel. With a MM box u can probably get by without using the airline & just drill a hole in the top of the U bend, but u would need to set the hieght of the standpipes at the right level
As far as the open channel, it would make more noise if u leavebit open on the top & would be loud if u have much flow at all going through it. One of the purposes of the open channel is so the system remains quiet with a little flunctuation in the system. With a open pipe u may be able to get it dialed in to where it may be quiet, but any flunctuation it would get loud & u would have to adjust the valve. One of beans goals when he came up with the setup was to pretty much have a system u can set & forget. So not have to constantly be adjusting the valve. Plumbing size makes a difference but I havnt touched the valve on eighther of my setups in years.
So imo, u could get by with just a pipe on the emergency, just a strainer straight on the bulkhead for the syphon, but I would make the U bend for the open channel. With a MM box u can probably get by without using the airline & just drill a hole in the top of the U bend, but u would need to set the hieght of the standpipes at the right level
I'm building a 2ft cube and I'd like to put an internal Calflo with beananimal plumbing. I will be moving about 500gph return. I have a few questions.
1. How deep and wide do you recommend the dimensions of the overflow be to accommodate the siphon.
2. What size pipe do you recommend for a small application like this?
1. How deep and wide do you recommend the dimensions of the overflow be to accommodate the siphon.
2. What size pipe do you recommend for a small application like this?
I would use 1” plumbing & 1” bulkheads for the drains. For the return it will depend on your return pump & if u plan on using locline. I would more then likely just use 1” for the returns to keep all the plumbing the same. If u want to use locline I would get a threaded 3/4” bulkhead for the return & reduce down from 1” to 3/4” close to the bulkhead.
As far as size, u just have to be able to fit the plumbing. So for 1” plumbing u will need to make the box atleast 2.75” wide (front to back) to be able to fit a street elbow inside of the box. Different fittings are a little different in size, so u may want to buy the plumbing so u can measure it before making the box. Or u could go ahead & make the box 3” & u will be able to fit the elbow. If u want the box a little narrower then u can always cut a little off the spigot end of a street elbow. I made my box 2.75” & from what I remember I had to cut about 1/4” off the elbow so it would fit.
As far as height, it will depend where u drill the holes in the tank. When u drill a hole u need to stay 1X the hole diameter from the edge of the glass to the hole. So for a 1” bulkhead u will need to be a minimum of 1.75” from the top rim of the tank to the top of the hole. If u go with these dimensions u should be able to make the height of the box 4”. That will put the top of the overflow box about 1.5” from the top of the tank, which is where your water line will be. So assuming u use a 1” bulkhead & u drill the hole 1.75” from the top of the tank to the top of the hole u can make the box 3” wide & 4” tall if u want the water line to be 1.25” to 1.5” from the top rim of the tank. If u want the water level higher then u will need to make the box taller
As far as size, u just have to be able to fit the plumbing. So for 1” plumbing u will need to make the box atleast 2.75” wide (front to back) to be able to fit a street elbow inside of the box. Different fittings are a little different in size, so u may want to buy the plumbing so u can measure it before making the box. Or u could go ahead & make the box 3” & u will be able to fit the elbow. If u want the box a little narrower then u can always cut a little off the spigot end of a street elbow. I made my box 2.75” & from what I remember I had to cut about 1/4” off the elbow so it would fit.
As far as height, it will depend where u drill the holes in the tank. When u drill a hole u need to stay 1X the hole diameter from the edge of the glass to the hole. So for a 1” bulkhead u will need to be a minimum of 1.75” from the top rim of the tank to the top of the hole. If u go with these dimensions u should be able to make the height of the box 4”. That will put the top of the overflow box about 1.5” from the top of the tank, which is where your water line will be. So assuming u use a 1” bulkhead & u drill the hole 1.75” from the top of the tank to the top of the hole u can make the box 3” wide & 4” tall if u want the water line to be 1.25” to 1.5” from the top rim of the tank. If u want the water level higher then u will need to make the box taller
Sort of a dumb question but what prevents the valve from being fully open on the primary drain? My overflow drains are drilled 1 1/2" so that is the pipe size I am using along with the valves. However, inside the overflow box I didn't have room for it so reduced it to 1" pipe similarly to what Bean did in his. If mine is fully open then it starts to make the sucking sound. Hard to say how much but I have my valve probably 1/4 turn or reduced.
Does this indicate that my pump is not able to keep up? Cor 15 is what I'm running on a 210 gallon tank. Figured I'd ask since I wasn't sure. Thanks - have a good day.
Does this indicate that my pump is not able to keep up? Cor 15 is what I'm running on a 210 gallon tank. Figured I'd ask since I wasn't sure. Thanks - have a good day.
Pretty much what u are saying is correct. If the valve is fully open then u would have to tune the return pump to the drain. It is unlikely that would happen & if it is draining the overflow with the return pump up all the way then the return pump can’t keep up. It wouldn’t surprise me if u had to pump 2000 gph for it to keep up with hour setup. Even if u could it would seem like it would be inconsistent.
That is one of the many positives about a beananimal drain. With your existing plumbing u can run anywhere from 200 gph to 2000 gph & the system work correctly. It makes it so much easier to tune the drain to the pump rather then the other way around
That is one of the many positives about a beananimal drain. With your existing plumbing u can run anywhere from 200 gph to 2000 gph & the system work correctly. It makes it so much easier to tune the drain to the pump rather then the other way around
[MENTION=306586]Lsufan[/MENTION] - thanks. I wasn't sure so wanted to ask. I had to read a bit in the thread and work out a few kings but like you said easy to tune once you have the set up correct. I have pretty much set it and have left it alone since I started the cycle and tank in February. The only time it needed any attention is when I brought one of the media reactors on-line after my rose bubble tips decided to spawn and muck up the water. But even then I didn't adjust anything on the bean plumbing. It was just adjusting the water flow through the reactor which was nice. Just wanted to be sure I - especially since this is the first DC pump I'm using (Cor 15).
Really glad I went with this. Thanks again.
Sisterlimonpot
Premium Member
Here's a question that I can't seem to find a definite answer on:
Are the downward turned elbows of the "full siphon" and "open channel" even with each other? Or does the "open channel" sit higher? And if so how much higher?
Thanks You
Are the downward turned elbows of the "full siphon" and "open channel" even with each other? Or does the "open channel" sit higher? And if so how much higher?
Thanks You
They can be even but being u have a exterior box I would place the open channel atleast 1/2” to 1” higher then the syphon. With them the same hieght u can have a issue with the syphon purging it’s air. What happens is the open channel takes on water before the water builds up enough to purge the air from the syphon, making it take longer to purge if it does at all. So by placing the open channel higher it eliminates the possibility of that issue.
When I have a interior box & the 90’s go straight into the bulkhead in the back of the tank then I drill the holes the same height & the open channel & syphon are even. With a exterior box where the bulkhead is in the bottom I always place the open channel higher then the syphon
When I have a interior box & the 90’s go straight into the bulkhead in the back of the tank then I drill the holes the same height & the open channel & syphon are even. With a exterior box where the bulkhead is in the bottom I always place the open channel higher then the syphon
Sisterlimonpot
Premium Member
Hal
New member
Can someone point me to the discussion about the height of the various drains relative to either the bottom or the tank, height of the weir, and/or height of the tank?
Alternately, here's my thoughts:
1. Siphon pipe: the height of the siphon drain doesn't really matter. You can tune the water level in the overflow box using a gate valve on the siphon line so the water level in the overflow box is just below the bottom of the teeth of the weir to minimize the height that the water falls, and therefore minimize the noise of the falling water. But really the gate valve is just to match the siphon drain to the flow rate of your return pump. Then you can manually add or subtract water to the overflow box to get it to the height where there is just a trickle in Emergency drain #1.
2. Emergency drain pipe #1 (Durso): Set the height of the first emergency drain (elbow down, with the airline, aka a durso) so that the bottom of the inside of the upside down U formed by the elbow pointing down (aka the height at which water begines to flow into this drain) is just below the height of the bottom of the teeth of the weir. This, combined with the water height set by the siphon gate valve, ensures that only a trickle of water flows down this emergency drain. Airline is optional but recommended to create a true Durso that will operate in non-siphon mode. Note that this drain will also function in siphon mode whenever the water level reaches the height of the airline input. Ideally, this should occur before Emergency drain #2 kicks in if you set the height of Emergency drain #2 as described below.
3. Emergency drain pipe #2 (the open pipe): set this higher than the Emergency drain pipe #1. Ideally higher than the top of the inside of the upside down U in Emergency drain pipe #1 (or the height of the air line input to Emergency drain #1 if using an airline) so as to allow Emergency drain pipe #1 to enter full siphon mode before Emergency drain pipe #2 kicks in. ALSO, the height of this open channel should be at least 1/2 to 1 inch below the height of the top of your tank!!! Lower is better. Otherwise you may not get the flow you need in Emergency drain #2 to handle the flow from your return pump if the siphon and emergency drain #1 both fail. It may be a good idea to upsize this drain pipe compared to the size of the siphon drain and Emergency drain #1 because this pipe, when used, will rarely be in siphon mode. So, for example, if my siphon drain is 1 inch pipe, I set my Emergency drain #1 as 1 inch pipe and Emergency drain #2 as 1.5 inch pipe.
So ideally there is a relationship between the heights of Emergency drain #1, Emergency drain #2, the height of the teeth in the weir, and the total height of the tank.
I welcome any comments or (constructive) criticism of the above; we're all trying to design the safest, quietest solution possible.
Alternately, here's my thoughts:
1. Siphon pipe: the height of the siphon drain doesn't really matter. You can tune the water level in the overflow box using a gate valve on the siphon line so the water level in the overflow box is just below the bottom of the teeth of the weir to minimize the height that the water falls, and therefore minimize the noise of the falling water. But really the gate valve is just to match the siphon drain to the flow rate of your return pump. Then you can manually add or subtract water to the overflow box to get it to the height where there is just a trickle in Emergency drain #1.
2. Emergency drain pipe #1 (Durso): Set the height of the first emergency drain (elbow down, with the airline, aka a durso) so that the bottom of the inside of the upside down U formed by the elbow pointing down (aka the height at which water begines to flow into this drain) is just below the height of the bottom of the teeth of the weir. This, combined with the water height set by the siphon gate valve, ensures that only a trickle of water flows down this emergency drain. Airline is optional but recommended to create a true Durso that will operate in non-siphon mode. Note that this drain will also function in siphon mode whenever the water level reaches the height of the airline input. Ideally, this should occur before Emergency drain #2 kicks in if you set the height of Emergency drain #2 as described below.
3. Emergency drain pipe #2 (the open pipe): set this higher than the Emergency drain pipe #1. Ideally higher than the top of the inside of the upside down U in Emergency drain pipe #1 (or the height of the air line input to Emergency drain #1 if using an airline) so as to allow Emergency drain pipe #1 to enter full siphon mode before Emergency drain pipe #2 kicks in. ALSO, the height of this open channel should be at least 1/2 to 1 inch below the height of the top of your tank!!! Lower is better. Otherwise you may not get the flow you need in Emergency drain #2 to handle the flow from your return pump if the siphon and emergency drain #1 both fail. It may be a good idea to upsize this drain pipe compared to the size of the siphon drain and Emergency drain #1 because this pipe, when used, will rarely be in siphon mode. So, for example, if my siphon drain is 1 inch pipe, I set my Emergency drain #1 as 1 inch pipe and Emergency drain #2 as 1.5 inch pipe.
So ideally there is a relationship between the heights of Emergency drain #1, Emergency drain #2, the height of the teeth in the weir, and the total height of the tank.
I welcome any comments or (constructive) criticism of the above; we're all trying to design the safest, quietest solution possible.
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DougSupreme
New member
What you are calling Emergency Drain #2 is actually the open Channel and it is responsible for determining the height of the water in your overflow box. The concept is that the siphon handles the majority of the flow while a minimal amount flows through the open channel. Siphons are silent, and since the open channel has a very low flow and low turbulence, it will be nearly silent also. The Emergency Drain should be set at your maximum level for tank water. The end of the airline tube from the top of the open channel should be attached just below the level of the Emergency Drain, so that when it is covered, it turns the open channel into a siphon also in the event that the designed siphon should clog. At this point, your overflow should start making noise to alert you to an issue with the drains.Can someone point me to the discussion about the height of the various drains relative to either the bottom or the tank, height of the weir, and/or height of the tank?
Alternately, here's my thoughts:
1. Siphon pipe: the height of the siphon drain doesn't really matter. You tune the water level in the overflow box using a gate valve on the siphon line so the water level in the overflow box is just below the bottom of the teeth of the weir to minimize the height that the water falls, and therefore minimize the noise of the falling water.
2. Emergency drain pipe #1: Set the height of the first emergency drain (elbow down, with the airline, aka a durso) so that the top of the upside down U formed by the elbow pointing down (aka the height at which water begines to flow into this drain) is just below the height of the bottom of the teeth of the weir. This, combined with the water height set by the siphon gate valve, ensures that only a trickle of water flows down this emergency drain. Airline is optional but recommended to create a true Durso that will operate in non-siphon mode.
3. Emergency drain pipe #2 (the open pipe): set this higher than the Emergency drain pipe #1. Ideally higher than the top of the upside down U in Emergency drain pipe #1 (or the height of the air line input to Emergency drain #1 if using an airline) so as to allow Emergency drain pipe #1 to enter full siphon mode before Emergency drain pipe #2 kicks in. ALSO, the height of this open channel should be at least 1/2 to 1 inch below the height of the top of your tank!!! Lower is better. Otherwise you may not get the flow you need in Emergency drain #2 if the siphon and emergency drain #1 both fail.
So ideally there is a relationship between the heights of Emergency drain #1, Emergency drain #2, the height of the teeth in the weir, and the total height of the tank.
I welcome any comments or criticism of the above; we're all trying to design the safest, quietest solution possible.
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Hal
New member
Sorry, I appear to have confused the terminology. You are correct in that Bean labels the open channel as having the airline tubing. I have added the label of "Durso" in my post above to try to clarify. So my "Durso" is Bean's "open channel". Although I find this confusing as I tend to think of "open" as not having any junk (e.g., Durso) on top of the pipe.
I also agree that one of the non-siphon drains should set the water level in the overflow box.
So are Emergency drain #1 and #2 both set at the same height? Meaning that both will have a trickle of water during "normal" operation? Based on the directions of the elbows, it looks to me like the Durso kicks in (starts to drain water in non-siphon mode) before the non-Durso sees any water. Whether the non-Durso kicks in before the Durso goes into siphon mode is still a question to me.
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DougSupreme
New member
There are three pipes. The siphon, the open channel, and the Emergency Drain. The open channel has the airline and under normal operation only allows a small amount of water to pass through maintaining the silent function. When the water level rises to cover the end of the airline it turns the open channel into a siphon. Under normal operation, there is no water flowing in the Emergency Drain, a small amount in the open Channel, and the majority in the siphon line
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