Splitting Carpet Anemonies

[ryanrid]

Waiting to see your new Ferrari! An anemone that can be split every month, eh? I'm not a math wiz but that would mean at the end of the year you'd have 4,096 anemones. At $3,000 per anemone, that's over $12 million! You're amazing! I can't understand how some people might not believe you!

Perhaps I should contact the Australian Fisheries Management Authority since you have single-handedly discovered a new industry that is 25 times greater than the entire Coral Seas Fishery!! I'm sure they will be excited to learn of your new discoveries!

great to see you take things out of context and try to ridicule someting you dont understand. I said he cut in 4 then cut again in a month there was never a mention of cutting again.

no wonder no one posted proof before....

I don't think anyone ever disagreed that a gigantea retails for $3000 down under.

Personally, I think his argument wears extremely thin when he talks about these anemones being sold in AU for thousands of dollars.

I agree i do need use of the bang against wall.

Also when i originally posted i thought as like in aus it is known that these have been sucessfully propped so i posted pics of some that i know for 100% fact are propogated nems. I didnt think it would come to this and wouldnt have bothered otherwise.

I dont see why i should share my info with the attitude on here.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I dont see why i should share my info with the attitude on here.

Yeah, that's right. It's OUR fault that you come to the site, make outrageous claims, and then act offended when people ask for some proof. At best, you're being immature. At worst, you're being irresponsible and killing animals through ignorance.

Perhaps I'll leave you with a quote from Dr. Daphne Fautin, who I submit knows as much about clown anemones as anyone on the planet:

To prevent taking animals from the wild, some well-intentioned people propose cutting sea anemones in pieces to propagate them artificially. I am astonished how often I receive such proposals! It appears that only (or nearly only) anemones that naturally divide will predictably survive this treatment. Despite a persistent belief otherwise, anemones of most species do not reproduce asexually: only two of the 10 species that are natural hosts to anemonefishes do, and that may be a pretty good estimate of the prevalence of that ability among all anemones - 20% of species.

Perhaps the myth that division is how anemones reproduce is due in part to the feeling that anemones are "primitive" and division is a "primitive" attribute (in fact, anemones have been on earth far longer than humans, so can be argued to be more evolved!), and in part because pests such as *Aiptasia* are many peoples' ideas of a "typical" anemone. In fact, they are so prevalent and common precisely because they have that unusual ability - most of the 1000 or so species of anemones are less conspicuous because they do not occur in such densities at least in part because they lack that ability.

Another possible source of the misconception about anemone division is the practice of fragging corals. Clearly anemones and scleractinian corals are closely related. But that does not mean they can be treated identically. All anemones are solitary (even those that divide separate entirely once they have formed separate bodies, whereas polyps of corals in a colony remain physically attached to one another after they have arisen asexually). So fragging is dividing colonies (groups of polyps) into smaller colonies (fewer polyps per piece). By contrast, cutting an anemone into pieces is analogous to cutting you into two or more pieces; and for anemones of most species, the result would be precisely the same -- we would not have numerous identical yous, we would have no you.

Associated with an ability in some anemones to divide (into two or many pieces, depending on the species) is an ability to heal; obviously healing is necessary for regeneration. And although the reverse is not necessarily the case, it seems that animals that do not normally divide also have poor healing ability. So the prospects are dim for propagating anemones of species that do not naturally divide by cutting them into two or more pieces. One person who wrote to me rather triumphantly with a proposal to reduce collection from nature by cutting anemones in pieces as a means of artificial propagation was so pleased because he had cut in half two anemones of a species that does not reproduce asexually (as I recall, it was a species of *Stichodactyla*), and although both halves of one had died, both of the other had survived. So he started with two and ended with two, each half as large as the originals. I failed to see promise in this approach.

And even for the two species of anemonefish host anemones that seem to divide in nature, differences from place to place make me think there may be more than one species of what we think is a single species of each or there may be differences among individuals. Thus, even an anemone that is thought to be able to propagate asexually (*Entacmaea quadricolor*, the bubble-tip, and *Heteractis magnifica*, the "Ritteri" anemone) may die from being cut up.

Daphne Fautin

Daphne G. Fautin
Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
Haworth Hall
University of Kansas

 

[ryanrid]

Yeah, that's right. It's OUR fault that you come to the site, make outrageous claims, and then act offended when people ask for some proof. At best, you're being immature. At worst, you're being irresponsible and killing animals through ignorance.

Perhaps I'll leave you with a quote from Dr. Daphne Fautin, who I submit knows as much about clown anemones as anyone on the planet:

To prevent taking animals from the wild, some well-intentioned people propose cutting sea anemones in pieces to propagate them artificially. I am astonished how often I receive such proposals! It appears that only (or nearly only) anemones that naturally divide will predictably survive this treatment. Despite a persistent belief otherwise, anemones of most species do not reproduce asexually: only two of the 10 species that are natural hosts to anemonefishes do, and that may be a pretty good estimate of the prevalence of that ability among all anemones - 20% of species.

Perhaps the myth that division is how anemones reproduce is due in part to the feeling that anemones are "primitive" and division is a "primitive" attribute (in fact, anemones have been on earth far longer than humans, so can be argued to be more evolved!), and in part because pests such as *Aiptasia* are many peoples' ideas of a "typical" anemone. In fact, they are so prevalent and common precisely because they have that unusual ability - most of the 1000 or so species of anemones are less conspicuous because they do not occur in such densities at least in part because they lack that ability.

Another possible source of the misconception about anemone division is the practice of fragging corals. Clearly anemones and scleractinian corals are closely related. But that does not mean they can be treated identically. All anemones are solitary (even those that divide separate entirely once they have formed separate bodies, whereas polyps of corals in a colony remain physically attached to one another after they have arisen asexually). So fragging is dividing colonies (groups of polyps) into smaller colonies (fewer polyps per piece). By contrast, cutting an anemone into pieces is analogous to cutting you into two or more pieces; and for anemones of most species, the result would be precisely the same -- we would not have numerous identical yous, we would have no you.

Associated with an ability in some anemones to divide (into two or many pieces, depending on the species) is an ability to heal; obviously healing is necessary for regeneration. And although the reverse is not necessarily the case, it seems that animals that do not normally divide also have poor healing ability. So the prospects are dim for propagating anemones of species that do not naturally divide by cutting them into two or more pieces. One person who wrote to me rather triumphantly with a proposal to reduce collection from nature by cutting anemones in pieces as a means of artificial propagation was so pleased because he had cut in half two anemones of a species that does not reproduce asexually (as I recall, it was a species of *Stichodactyla*), and although both halves of one had died, both of the other had survived. So he started with two and ended with two, each half as large as the originals. I failed to see promise in this approach.

And even for the two species of anemonefish host anemones that seem to divide in nature, differences from place to place make me think there may be more than one species of what we think is a single species of each or there may be differences among individuals. Thus, even an anemone that is thought to be able to propagate asexually (*Entacmaea quadricolor*, the bubble-tip, and *Heteractis magnifica*, the "Ritteri" anemone) may die from being cut up.

Daphne Fautin

Daphne G. Fautin
Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
Haworth Hall
University of Kansas

so when i post proof in the coming months what will you say then? You are still to admit you are wrong about the cost of these in aus so i doubt you will admit you are wrong about the propping also or make some excuse that it is ficticious blah blah blah.

it seems to be the common jealousy thing eg see some great sports person so they must be on steroids.

anyways im out till i have this documented

 

[shabreeson]

“Waiting to see your new Ferrari! An anemone that can be split every month, eh? I'm not a math wiz but that would mean at the end of the year you'd have 4,096 anemones. At $3,000 per anemone, that's over $12 million! You're amazing! I can't understand how some people might not believe you!”

I’m sure he only is describing that the mouth can be fully formed and healed in one month, not that the anemone can regrow to full size in one month.

Ryanrid, please excuse us for our skepticism. Many who have tried many times and finally succeeded to raise gigantae take these anemones very seriously here in the US.

There have been those in the past who have told tales of splitting any hosting anemone. These theories without proof had led some experienced anemone keepers to split their prize possessions only to realize that they've become another person who have taken from the ocean only to bring eventual death. Without the proper formation of the mouth, some split anemones have lived as much as a year before they finally died.

As has been stated we would be ecstatic to split these anemones and spread the wealth without taking more from the ocean.

We need clear proof before we make the same risk you are offering. I’m sure you, being a smart individual, can admit that your final set of photos aren’t PERFECTLY clear. The first photo does show two split gigantea. Second photo has so much blue tint that what is happening is very unclear. It might seem clear since you’ve seen it in person but is unclear to us being that it is the only info we have to go on. The last pic only shows a clown in part of an anemone.

If you want to quiet skeptics here you need to:
1. Use an accurate camera for each shot.
2. Videos would be wonderful as well
3. Take a CLEAR picture of the mouth in each picture using the same camera.
4. Continue to take photos until the mouth finally forms/a full 2 years(for many seeing a fully formed, eating, mouth after 6 months will be enough proof)

If the anemones are fully formed and don’t seem to struggling then we all have hope for successful propagation.

I know you can’t go back in time to take better photos or else you would have posted them. So essentially, you’ll have to wait to spit the anemone again and take the mentioned steps to supply enough proof.

Regards and good luck

 

[Toddrtrex]

so when i post proof in the coming months what will you say then? You are still to admit you are wrong about the cost of these in aus so i doubt you will admit you are wrong about the propping also or make some excuse that it is ficticious blah blah blah.

it seems to be the common jealousy thing eg see some great sports person so they must be on steroids.

anyways im out till i have this documented

I have been trying to stay out of this thread, but I have to comment.

For you say that the skepticism is because of jealous is very short sighted. I am sure that everyone wants this to be true, but the way you have been going about this, and the pictures leave a lot to be desired. I am going to assume that you know a thing or two about anemones (( Gigs specifically )), so you would know that they don't reproduce by splitting and there has yet to be a truly documented case of them being fragged. With that knowledge I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't have documented this better then a few poor cell phone pictures.

Then again, you have also mentioned that the way that this is done is a secret -- if you are keeping it a secret so you can continue to make money, as opposed to benefiting this hobby (( and saving countless anemones from being taken from the wild )) shows your true colors -- IMO.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I’m sure he only is describing that the mouth can be fully formed and healed in one month, not that the anemone can regrow to full size in one month.

Who knows? It is clear that HE has no experience fragging this species, and is instead going off of second hand accounts from someone else. (Someone else who apparently doesn't have photos either). I guess we are left to believe that there is a small secretive cadre of Austalian reefers who can frag this species at will, while the rest of the world cannot...

...no scientific articles...
...no mentions in magazines...
...no mentions in books...
...no mentions by reputable marine biologists...
...no photo series on any web site...

...just tons and tons of failures from around the world by hobbyists as well as aquaculture professionals. Excepting apparently this one group of Aussie Reefers that we have heard nothing about until now.

So he apparently bought a gigantea for $3000, and cut it in half. Now I guess we wait to see if either half survives. However given his reticence about posting photos, I don't know if we will ever know. I will assume both halves have died unless I see otherwise. As the saying goes "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

If my posts have stopped one other person from unknowingly cutting their gigantea in half, I will have done the world a favor.

By the way - I wish people would stop focusing on the "quick fix" of fragging, and instead focus on the much more predictable and viable method of sexual reproduction. Here is a photo of the only documented case of sexually aquacultured S. gigantea to get people going A photo is worth a thousand words - particularly if the photo is from Charles Delbeek...

 

[kduen]

Have you guys seen this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1911067&highlight=baby+green+carpet

On post 19 Shutniny shows a picture of a live birth of a baby Gig. It also shows the birth of a Haddoni. Not sure what ever happened with them or if they were even true but interesting none the least.

 

[phender]

As a person who cut a carpet anemone (not a gigantea, but a mertens) I can tell you that even if the mouth reforms completely, at least in my case, the anemone was never the same. To the untrained eye, it looked just fine, but I had seen it thriving and it wasn't the same. My half that "survived" the fragging lasted about 18 months. I had the anemone for about 5 years prior.
I know what gigs that are doing "great" look like. I have had a few of my own. I can tell you that the pieces that have been shown as fragged and completely healed seem to look OK. They do not look "great". As most of us know a healthy anemone can take a loooong (many months) time to die once it is compromised, but it is nearly impossible to stop the decline once it has started even though the anemone may look healed.

It would be great if there was a way to frag carpets, but you have to understand that there is going to have to be an over abundance of proof when it seems that your methods are no different than any of the experts (not talking about me, but professional aquaculturists) that have tried before you.

 

[shabreeson]

Here is a photo of the only documented case of sexually aquacultured S. gigantea to get people going A photo is worth a thousand words - particularly if the photo is from Charles Delbeek...

Great photo! Thanks for posting.

 

[shutiny]

Unless you are looking for true peer reviewed journal status, the study you are proposing should not take two years of data collection to complete and distribute results. And, two years would even be excessive for that.

I asked questions about your materials and methods b/c you are proposing to experiment on wild animals that are going to be plucked from a reef. It would at least be a little different if these were already captive propagated animals.

I realize there is a difference between experimenting on vertebrates and brainless cnidarians, but for me - and many others following this thread - we are concerned about these animals brought into captivity and want to see them thrive. If you are going to do a worthless study with questionable methods and even more questionable results, I was trying to help prevent that.


Good job, Mike! Was the asexual propagation done in the wild? Or was it done in the captive environment? How long ago was this done?
Thank you for the pictures.
If you properly document your study along the way and are successful, then put me in line with the others who will greatly commend you on a job and study well done.


But for now, this is basically what you have told us:

This is a carpet anemone I cut up for asexual propagation:

Here is the one of the halves that is doing well and has healed up; see how the mouth has reformed:

Here is another one of the halves:

And here is the third half of the original anemone I cut up. The clowns and anemone crabs have already reestablished their homes:

I have as much proof for the successful "experiment" I just posted as you have for the one you just posted.


Bonsai - thank you for the link. I can't believe I didn't just google the author - they most all have websites these days...

Cheers
Mike

 

[shutiny]

Ah Mike, I see what you are doing. I was so happy thinking that you ready did the mertensii propagation!

 

[ousnakebyte]

Ah Mike, I see what you are doing. I was so happy thinking that you ready did the mertensii propagation!

Ha... no. :rollface:

That would indeed be awesome, but those are my vacation photos from Bunaken Island, North Sulawesi last March (2010). Holy Biodiversity, Batman!

I have this inordinate, some would say unhealthy, fondness of all things cnidarian. So much so, that I almost forgot to take pictures of fish; I had to tell myself to stop swimming over to every anemone I saw and snapping a photo. And the coral... OMG the coral was everywhere... :spin2:

Cheers
Mike

 

[elegance coral]

pic when cut, you can it see has been cut through the mouth in half

Picture quality and lighting make it hard to tell for sure, but the remains of the anemone in the pic above appear to be dark with an abundance of healthy zooxanthellae.

and 36hrs afterwards taken with DSLR the two halfs

The photo above, taken 36 hours after fragmentation, shows an anemone that has lost the vast majority of its zooxanthellae. So, now the anemone has no ability to feed because its digestive cavity has been cut in two, and its ability to obtain nutrition through photosynthesis has been greatly compromised. Where's this animal going to get the energy and nutrition needed to heal from such a catastrophic wound?

as too how to cut etc, this is a trade secret for now as I do this as a business and in Aus a blue gig retails at over $3000.

People keep trying to convince others that this is some highly skilled or technically advanced procedure. It is not. It doesn't matter how you do it. This is a very simple task. You cut an animal, that has no bones, in half with a sharp object.

This nem will continue to be propped several time a year....

Lets stretch our imaginations and pretend you can cut a gigantea several times a year and have it survive. If you are selling them at the same pace you are fragging them, they don't have time to heal before being sold. Take a look at Phendors thread. A few months into it, he could have claimed success and sold the two halves for a pretty penny. When they died, he could have blamed the purchaser, and stuck to his story that they were healthy at the time of the sale. Thankfully, he was honest. With his experience as an anemone keeper, he knew this anemone was not "right". Other less experienced hobbyists probably would have seen no flaw in them. In all the pics you posted, I see anemones that are stressed, or ill. The morality of selling these anemones, as healthy individuals, while they are in this condition is questionable at best IMHO.

 

[Conrad25]

Until there is full documentation with detailed quality pictures and showing a full healing process and fully inflated/happy in its orig. state that it was previously before cutting. Its been done in many different systems with different lighting and what not. So A) it could happen maybe with some kind of medicine etc that we discover in the future which is possible I think or B) only going to happen sexually if we ever discover how to get that portion of it down. Till than, leave cutting alone and save the carpets we do have

 

[BonsaiNut]

Great photo! Thanks for posting.

Here's the same anemone, two years later.

This is in a large display tank at Waikiki Aquarium.

 

[shabreeson]

^^^ very very nice. sooo u need to hurry up and get a 300 gallon display with 10 gigantea any word on what probably triggers the sexual reproduction? timed moon lighting, cold periods etc.?

did he say what might have triggered this spawning?

 

[Toddrtrex]

^^^ very very nice. sooo u need to hurry up and get a 300 gallon display with 10 gigantea any word on what probably triggers the sexual reproduction? timed moon lighting, cold periods etc.?

did he say what might have triggered this spawning?

I can only speak for myself and when my S. Haddoni spawned -- it was 100% stress caused. Long story short, I had emergency surgery, was in the hospital for 5 days. The main pump ran dry, the SG went up to 1.031, and the temp dropped to 70*. Was able to correct things, and the next day (( when I installed a new pump )) it starting spawning.

 

[deangelr]

from what I can find on the site.. The only completely documented case of splitting carpets was done by phender and he failed..

are there other well documented examples of these failures on RC?

 

[shutiny]

from what I can find on the site.. The only completely documented case of splitting carpets was done by phender and he failed..

are there other well documented examples of these failures on RC?

I learned lots of my set up /knowledge from Phil's documentation and from his work. In my view, his works(and others)helped the establishment of the hypothesis in our hobby that most of the Stichodactyla species are not fit for
Cutting. In this, I see no failure.

 

[deangelr]

I agree... But i feel like documented failed attemps at this point are probably more important that the ones where it rarely succeeds..

IMO only clear documentation from experience hobbyist attempting this will show that it is not possible.. Phender's experience was a very valuable one.

Splittle carpets is like alchemy.. and that went on for 100s of years..