Splitting Carpet Anemonies

[elegance coral]

In the last picture I saw, the mother was no longer distinguishable from the bud. The animal had two equal columns and was only attached at the pedal disk. It seemed to be just a matter of time before it became two separate individuals. But, the final picture of complete separation was never posted.

This always seems to be the case. We get 80% of the information, but that conclusive last 20% never seems to surface.

What you are describing is a new form of reproduction to me. It seems to combine budding, pedal laceration, and lateral fission. The process starts out like budding, but the bud never forms a pedal disk of it's own and detaches from the mother polyp. In stead the bud continues to grow to adult size while remaining attached to the "mother" polyp. The next part, I'm not to clear on. The column either begins to separate like lateral fission, or the upper column of the bud simply grows to adult size. Then I guess it's assumed that the process turns to pedal laceration. A portion of the mothers pedal disk detaches along with the bud, and together they become a new anemone. With our naive understanding of these processes, we can not write anything off as impossible. This just seems very odd to me. It can't really be considered budding, because the bud doesn't grow into a small/young anemone while attached to the mother, then simply go off on its own to grow into an adult. It's not really pedal laceration, because the polyp forms first then steals a portion of the mothers pedal disk. It's more a combination of processes.

I guess we are just going to have to concede that I think there is enough evidence out there to support the possibility of budding in carpets and you do not.

I can respectfully accept that. I think you're getting the better end of the deal though. I can never prove you wrong, but there's always that chance you could prove me wrong.

There is a giant clam facility that has reproduced gigantea sexually, but the specifics seem to be closely guarded. I look forward to the day I retire and can set up a greenhouse with a gigantea run. Then I will have to try to pry the info out of someone I know.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Knowing my haddoni is a female makes me want to purchase more haddonis and attempt a breeding system. I'm working on elegance coral reproduction first though. One project at a time.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Bonsai - thank you for the link. I can't believe I didn't just google the author - they most all have websites these days...

I have actually been in contact with Anna for several years. One day I hope to go visit her in Australia. I have copies of all of her papers - if you can't find any let me know and I can send you a link.

 

[WDLV]

Anna was quite friendly to me when I contacted her and was nice enough to forward some of her research material; pics and all. Good stuff.

 

[BonsaiNut]

since then they have recovered much more and have more colour, as too how to cut etc, this is a trade secret for now as I do this as a business and in Aus a blue gig retails at over $3000.

This nem will continue to be propped several time a year....

Anybody with a knife and a cutting board can cut a gigantea in half, as has been sadly seen quite a number of times on this site. And as anyone with any experience knows, the critical point is NOT in the first 36 hours - it is in the first 12 weeks. Until the mouth has healed the anemone pieces are just that - pieces of an anemone. When you cut an anemone in half, you interrupt all of its metabolic processes - it has no ability to take in food, process waste, or defend against infection. The question is whether the anemone can heal fast enough before it (1) starves (2) dies from internal contamination or (3) dies from infection. S. gigantea is a fickle anemone that is not very robust in the best of circumstances. This is not to say that it cannot thrive when healthy and in a proper environment - but it responds less well to injury than, for example, E. quadricolor. It does not reproduce asexually in the wild (at least not with any degree of frequency) and so does not respond as well to the same physical stresses created artificially.

So good luck with your anemone pieces. It would be great to see photos of the mouth, because that is the best way to ascertain your progress. From my experience, it won't even START to heal for at least the first week.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself talking about "propping" this anemone several times a year. Of course, I am still waiting to see photos of the person who cut his anemone into 8 pieces and they all survived, LOL. And don't get me wrong - I am not a "hater". I just know what I know. And you are not the first person to show up here and claim this... and be wrong.

 

[phender]

I have actually been in contact with Anna for several years. One day I hope to go visit her in Australia. I have copies of all of her papers - if you can't find any let me know and I can send you a link.

Great link. Thank you. It looks like there are links to most of her complete papers, but you have to click a few buttons.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Great link. Thank you. It looks like there are links to most of her complete papers, but you have to click a few buttons.

I've got them up on an FTP server, but don't want to post the address on a web site for obvious reasons. If you need anything shoot me a PM and I can send you the link.

 

[ousnakebyte]

ok so for you haters :lol2:,
since then they have recovered much more and have more colour, as too how to cut etc, this is a trade secret for now as I do this as a business and in Aus a blue gig retails at over $3000.

This nem will continue to be propped several time a year....

I'm not a hater either - but you have made exceptional claims and that requires even more exceptional proof. Proof that you have only JUST BEGUN to provide and is your burden to continue to provide. You give us only the very slightest morsels of information at a time and then seem shocked that we question your reliability and ask for more detailed information - especially given that the asexual propagation history of S. gigantea is on par with the brutality of the Spanish Inquisition.

With this sample size of one, it looks like you have a good start but, at least for me, the jury is still very much (predictably) out. And, as has been stated, detailed pics of the mouth healing would be wonderful.

And, the rumors of the gigantea cut into 8ths is just that - still a rumor at this point.


It is interesting, though, that your cutting technique which you don't want to share is such a "trade secret" that it helps your business, yet you want to publish a study for all to see - presumably free. If your stated reason for doing this is altruism and saving the reefs, then fine, I can accept that I guess, but once again you do not provide nearly enough detailed information, so I/we are left guessing.

Cheers
Mike

 

[BonsaiNut]

It is interesting, though, that your cutting technique which you don't want to share is such a "trade secret" that it helps your business, yet you want to publish a study for all to see - presumably free. If your stated reason for doing this is altruism and saving the reefs, then fine, I can accept that I guess, but once again you do not provide nearly enough detailed information, so I/we are left guessing.

Personally, I think his argument wears extremely thin when he talks about these anemones being sold in AU for thousands of dollars. If the market is so lucrative, and aquaculturing these animals so simple, wouldn't we already see a large group of commercial ventures producing these? Are we left to believe that one guy working out of his garage or basement is successful when so many others (who have been in the ornamental marine industry for decades) are not? Regardless, I have yet to see anything that begins to change my opinion... and sadly, I really DO wish that someone would figure an easy way to reproduce these creatures.

 

[ryanrid]

Personally, I think his argument wears extremely thin when he talks about these anemones being sold in AU for thousands of dollars. If the market is so lucrative, and aquaculturing these animals so simple, wouldn't we already see a large group of commercial ventures producing these? Are we left to believe that one guy working out of his garage or basement is successful when so many others (who have been in the ornamental marine industry for decades) are not? Regardless, I have yet to see anything that begins to change my opinion... and sadly, I really DO wish that someone would figure an easy way to reproduce these creatures.

These are sold for $3k + in aus (and yes that was my investment and risk), as you may or may not know it is illegal to import inverts to aus which makes some things quite expensive eg a decent ric is approx $300. Also only around 4 blue gig's are found/coolected/sold a year which is why the price is so high, green's are more common and are approx $500. Blue haddoni's retail approx $1K so must be more commonly found.

I am not the first to do so in aus, the piece cut in 8 was not done by myself but a collector who sold all the pieces, also i know other collegues who have cut in half and posted the pics.

And as anyone with any experience knows, the critical point is NOT in the first 36 hours - it is in the first 12 weeks

sure i can document one now for one cut 10 days ago but that would be inconclusive would it not?

 

[suta4242]

ryanrid is a local reefer, so I know what hes saying about fragging his carpet is true. Am very interested to see the outcome for your frags over the long run.:fun2:

AFAIK some of those original ones cut by Nic (the collector) are around but have any completely healed well enough to grow a complete mouth and return to their original shape?

If the answer is yes, then it bodes well for your propogation efforts.

Guess thats my primary concern.



cheers
angie

 

[ryanrid]

thread on local aus forum, i assume the elegance coral is the one from here...

http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=226441

now you may beleive the pricing?

 

[ryanrid]

ryanrid is a local reefer, so I know what hes saying about fragging his carpet is true. Am very interested to see the outcome for your frags over the long run.:fun2:

AFAIK some of those original ones cut by Nic (the collector) are around but have any completely healed well enough to grow a complete mouth and return to their original shape?

If the answer is yes, then it bodes well for your propogation efforts.

Guess thats my primary concern.



cheers
angie

:wave: Angie
Dayrn's is one of the 8, he sold it recently for $1600 - it sold in 2 minutes:hmm4:

 

[elegance coral]

:wave: Angie
Dayrn's is one of the 8, he sold it recently for $1600 - it sold in 2 minutes:hmm4:

That does sound like a very lucrative business. Buy an anemone for three grand, cut it into eight pieces, then sell each piece for sixteen hundred before they decompose.

 

[suta4242]

Well, when I heard about the original collector doing this I was skeptical. But just FYI, I think Nic held onto the frags for several months before shipping, so its not quite as simple as you say.

However, I do agree with documenting progress on the frags. You may find it unpalatable, but if it works then the reasons why it fails in some instances and succeeds in others, need to be better understood.

But for me real success is when the frag regrows shape and its mouth.... I understand the fragging was evident at the time of Daryn's purchase.
Ryan, did daryn's gigantea completely reform during the time he had it?
And did it regrow a whole mouth? Just that I can't see the mouth in that picture.

 

[BonsaiNut]

However, I do agree with documenting progress on the frags. You may find it unpalatable, but if it works then the reasons why it fails in some instances and succeeds in others, need to be better understood.

I couldn't agree with you more. However you need to understand from our perspective - it is not a case of "fails in some instances and succeeds in others", it is a case of "always fails". I have never ONCE seen an example of a gigantea that has been cut in two and both sides have survived. At least here in the United States, the failure rate has been (as far as I am aware) 100%.

Understand that when you cut a gigantea in half, it will often look good for a week or two. But it will never heal. It will eventually fade and die. People get false hopes after cutting one in half and the two parts are still alive after a week.

If something is being done in Australia that is allowing people to be successful cutting giganteas in half, it should be an easy enough process to show the anemone as it goes through the healing process. No complete mouth = no healing and eventual death.

 

[Sfork]

I'm no expert at all just very interested in the subject and was going to say the same thing. It may be an Australia vs US thing where theirs don't have to deal with shipping, also from what I've seen here on RC some of those guys just go down to the beach and get water, that may also have something to do with it.

Also tagging along and hope he keeps us updated.

 

[ryanrid]

That does sound like a very lucrative business. Buy an anemone for three grand, cut it into eight pieces, then sell each piece for sixteen hundred before they decompose.

Daryn bought from the collector and kept it for close to 1 year before selling it....you guys struggle to keep a collected one for a year from what i have read?

Well, when I heard about the original collector doing this I was skeptical. But just FYI, I think Nic held onto the frags for several months before shipping, so its not quite as simple as you say.

However, I do agree with documenting progress on the frags. You may find it unpalatable, but if it works then the reasons why it fails in some instances and succeeds in others, need to be better understood.

But for me real success is when the frag regrows shape and its mouth.... I understand the fragging was evident at the time of Daryn's purchase.
Ryan, did daryn's gigantea completely reform during the time he had it?
And did it regrow a whole mouth? Just that I can't see the mouth in that picture.

i actually spoke to nic about this today and he said he cut in quaters, then 1 month later he cut those in half to make the 8, not sure how long till he sold them tho..

and yes daryns had completely healed with mouth and all. Mine are now eating:celeb1:

there is a trick to the cut you cant just butcher it, it is a delicate procedure.

 

[ousnakebyte]

Sigh.... isn't there one of those stupid smilies with the little yellow face banging its head against a brick wall...???

I don't think anyone ever disagreed that a gigantea retails for $3000 down under. I personally also believe that you did actually cut your anemone. The problem, as has been stated over and over again, is this:

- The original poster wanted to know information about splitting giganteas

- Several people with experience described that no, this historically been overwhelmingly unsuccessful, don't try it please. (the there was a dovetail discussion about natural asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction, which is where my interests currently lie)

- You show up, Ryan, outright disagreeing with YEARS of experience and post a few very questionable photos, all the while only giving tidbits of more information when asked for more detailed proof - then only citing trade secret cutting techniques, ambitions of publications, and your sample size of one anemone and an "experiment" that has been running for 10 days, with rumors of a pizza-pie anemone cut into 8ths


You would have been better served to approach this thread with something like this:

- Hi everyone. I realize there have been years of unsuccessful attempts at fragmenting gigantea anemones, but I have been working with a few collectors here in AU, and I/we are working on a technique to successfully fragment these animals.

- It's VERY early in the study - only 10 days - but I will report back frequently with photos to report on the success and/or failure of our techniques. However, some of the collectors I am working with do report success, so I am optimistic that we will be successful.

- If this does work, I will be looking to try and publish the results, but it might take some time b/c a gigantea retails for $3000 here in AU, so I will need enough time to purchase animals and collect more data.

(more detailed photo documentation would have been nice as well - but you could still protect your lucrative trade secret)

Or.... some variation on that theme above. I'm SURE you would still draw skepticism and receives calls for documentation, but given the nature of your "study" and the history that surrounds it, that is to be expected.

Instead, you chose to outright disagree with those who have years of experience and proceed to show "proof" that is less than convincing.


Some mod PLEASE create that smiley banging its head against the wall.

Cheers
Mike

 

[BonsaiNut]

I'm no expert at all just very interested in the subject and was going to say the same thing. It may be an Australia vs US thing where theirs don't have to deal with shipping, also from what I've seen here on RC some of those guys just go down to the beach and get water, that may also have something to do with it.

I don't think so. I have spoken to aquaculture professionals working on South Pacific islands with open loop systems to the ocean who were unsuccessful doing this.

Again - think of the work required to raise a single aquaculture clownfish... that wholesales for less than $5. Think of the work that is required to raise a single aquaculture tridacna clam... that wholesales for less than $10. Do you think that if you could sell anemones for hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars with equipment no more sophisticated than a knife, a cutting board, and bucket trips to the ocean that there wouldn't be HUNDREDS of people doing it?

I think these guys are full of bull - but will happily retract that statement if/when they show us something. Personally, I can't even believe this thread is going on this long without any sort of photos; I'll bet there are a group of kids in Aus right now laughing "we told them we were fragging S. gigantea into eight pieces and they BELIEVED US! LOL!"

 

[BonsaiNut]

i actually spoke to nic about this today and he said he cut in quaters, then 1 month later he cut those in half to make the 8, not sure how long till he sold them tho..

Mine are now eating:celeb1:

there is a trick to the cut you cant just butcher it, it is a delicate procedure.

Waiting to see your new Ferrari! An anemone that can be split every month, eh? I'm not a math wiz but that would mean at the end of the year you'd have 4,096 anemones. At $3,000 per anemone, that's over $12 million! You're amazing! I can't understand how some people might not believe you!

Perhaps I should contact the Australian Fisheries Management Authority since you have single-handedly discovered a new industry that is 25 times greater than the entire Coral Seas Fishery!! I'm sure they will be excited to learn of your new discoveries!