STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

Maybe you misunderstood my post. Of course I have kids (3), and get why questions all the time, but I don't tell them fish have "families".



I don't think there's anything even slightly destructive about our hobby taking fish or coral out of the oceans. We are by no means the top predators. Geez, there's only 7 billion of us, and 70 trillion of them. :eek:
Really, 7 billion sharks eating tons of blue hippos everyday. :spin2:

I think the point of this thread was about lack of education, particularly about difficult-to-keep species as it relates to our hobby at some LFS...not a springboard for pathiests.


If you reread my post, thats what my daughter said, I didnt say they have families. I said I never thought of it that way, but thats the way it looks thru a child's eyes. I dont feel guilty about my tank, but wonder what some people might think. I didnt say I even cared, I just wondered.

Derek
 
My wife often asks me if I feel bad when fish that were newly aquired died since they were taken from the ocean... The answer is always yes. The only way to keep evolving the hobby and captive bred fish is by collecting wild fish and trying to breed them, while learning more and more about their natural enviroment. What it boils down to is if you don't like fish that are collected from the wild, then DON'T buy them. Educate a newbie you see in your LFS, instead of them blindly picking out fish and listening to the LFS
 
My wife often asks me if I feel bad when fish that were newly aquired died since they were taken from the ocean... The answer is always yes. The only way to keep evolving the hobby and captive bred fish is by collecting wild fish and trying to breed them, while learning more and more about their natural enviroment. What it boils down to is if you don't like fish that are collected from the wild, then DON'T buy them. Educate a newbie you see in your LFS, instead of them blindly picking out fish and listening to the LFS

I kinda feel about that whole situation personally as follows...

The fish would have been caught and sold anyway. If it died on my (your) watch it probably had a much better chance of survival than 99.9% of other fish keepers...
 
My personal feeling on this topic is that lfs arent the place for a newbie to be educated nor for us to dictate what they, the lfs, should do or dont. It is a business enterprise, profit matter to them and time is valuable. But every reefer need to play a part. Every reefer need to stand up and make themselves count. Make it known to your colleague, your friend, your neighbour or your family that, yes, you are involved and are able to help a newbie to get his/her information correctly. Be a mentor, guide them into this hobby correctly and responsibly.

I would have to disagree with this. A good LFS should make it a point to educate customers. No matter how popular internet sources are, I feel people will always appreciate speaking in person with someone, and learning from them. My LFS has a lounge area, and there are constantly people sitting on the couches talking. I went there when I knew very little, even after reading this site a lot. The workers were happy to help. Im sure they would appreciate having an educated clientele much more than know nothings that buy fish they can't keep. Most store owners have tanks themselves I'm sure, so going to the LFS should be just like talking to fellow refers here.
 
. edited . . . A good LFS should make it a point to educate customers.

What percentage of LFS are good LFS? From reading this board for ten years, I see far too many new to the hobby folks taken advantage of by improper LFS information.
 
What percentage of LFS are good LFS? From reading this board for ten years, I see far too many new to the hobby folks taken advantage of by improper LFS information.

I'd be willing to bet a higher percentage than what this site thinks. People are always more likely to speak up after a bad experience than a good one.
 
A good book that was given to me was the Contentious Marine Aquarius ??Derek.
This is the funniest typo I've seen in a while - and I make a lot. The book is the Conscientious Marine Aquarists, and I've used it a lot.

If there were a book out there teaching how to be a Contentious Marine Aquarist it would explain a lot of what goes on here at RC. :p
 
I'd be willing to bet a higher percentage than what this site thinks. People are always more likely to speak up after a bad experience than a good one.

So instead of 2% of all the LFS in the USA being "good" it's 5%?? The number won't get much higher than that and if you think so then you haven't been to many LFS. Everytime I travel I go to several LFS and I can tell you that there aren't many I would go to again. I guess it depends on what your definition of "good" is. There are only 1% of LFS that carry a large selection of fish that are healthy and eating, and have knowledgable staff. If rare fish is also a requirement then we are talking about less than 1%
 
That's funny. I'm in Islamorada right now as I type this, staying at a rental of one of the popular collectors down here and he would beg to differ. Shark pool. Fish runs. Coral tanks. Everything is alive and well here.

So if a fish store is killing 99% of the fish they buy, I would imagine they'll be out of business real quick. And one persons experience working at one LFS doesn't say much.

Also just stop and think about how asinine that figure is. 99% of fish collected are dead within 2 weeks? If that were the case, fish would cost a hell of a lot more than they do. Otherwise no one would get in this business.

Shark pool.
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Now this fish on the other hand is 100% dead. He was also really delicious. ;)

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This fish is an Ocean Tally (Triggerfish) if anyone is wondering.
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.
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I have worked for LFS and a wholesaler and took care of 10's of thousands of fish and shipped them out and I can tell you this is as far off from reality as it gets. I would have less than 10 fish total die per day in systems with thousands of fish in them. Maybe you worked for really poor wholesalers or no one knew what they were doing but 99 out of 100 fish do not die within 2 weeks... That's just poor info and not factual. Something like Peppermint angels is much closer to the 99 out of 100 remark but that's one example and there are 10 other examples I could name but that doesn't mean that's the case with all fish... And isn't. If this was your experience at LFS and wholesalers I feel sorry for you. Transhipped fish don't even have a 99 out of 100 death rate and they are in bags for days sometimes
 
That's funny. I'm in Islamorada right now as I type this, staying at a rental of one of the popular collectors down here and he would beg to differ. Shark pool. Fish runs. Coral tanks. Everything is alive and well here.

So if a fish store is killing 99% of the fish they buy, I would imagine they'll be out of business real quick. And one persons experience working at one LFS doesn't say much.

Also just stop and think about how asinine that figure is. 99% of fish collected are dead within 2 weeks? If that were the case, fish would cost a hell of a lot more than they do. Otherwise no one would get in this business.

Shark pool.
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Now this fish on the other hand is 100% dead. He was also really delicious. ;)

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This fish is an Ocean Tally (Triggerfish) if anyone is wondering.

Thanks for this CuzzA, this has been mentioned in this thread several times now and I'm not sure where someone got this random number from but is far from the truth and honestly after working at a wholesaler and several LFS I take offense to it. I would never be part of a hobby that had death rates that high... Doesn't make sense and is bad for buisness. Also I must have a lot of the "1" fish that do make it past 2 weeks
 
I have not worked in any sort of wholesale or distribution operation, closest I ever came was a Divers den open house. So this just pure speculation on my part. If 99 out of 100 fish were dead within two weeks then I would suspect a whole lot of groups would be yelling all over the place.
 
Feather stars

Feather stars

What really drives me crazy when Lfs sells feather stars, they never survive even with the best intended reefer feeding them. I think they should be banned from being sold
 
I have not worked in any sort of wholesale or distribution operation, closest I ever came was a Divers den open house. So this just pure speculation on my part. If 99 out of 100 fish were dead within two weeks then I would suspect a whole lot of groups would be yelling all over the place.

Actually Live Aquaria and Divers Den track their success rate. When I last had email from Kevin it was in the low 90's (I think I remember 94%). Also, note that if a fish (or coral) dies after being ordered by an LFS, the LFS eats all losses.
 
a friend of mine regularly buys from a wholesales who does direct imports from Bali (pic was a few years ago of an order he got for me)...prices were very low!!! most fish were between .25$ to $5.00; maricultured corals, the same that DD sells for $80, were $7. no one is losing money, he has told me the loses from Bali to US are generally large; and that is only part of the trip these fish are going through.



http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image_zpsa2cba71b.jpg.html][/URL]
 
It's an epidemic in this hobby that you'll notice at nearly every LFS you visit, there always seems to be those "showy" fish that every novice hopes he/she will get the greenlight from the employee at the store to go ahead and add to their tank, but the majority of the time have too small of a tank or the bulk of their fish wish list won't be compatible with these particular fish. The species I'm talking about are...

Baby Hippo Tangs (Paracanthurus hepatus) - Pitiful track record in aquaria and they're typically only sold because of the cute factor that grabs so many customers attentions. Hippo Tangs can be hardy fish, but seeing 20x 1" juveniles wedged in the cracks of coral skeletons makes me wonder how many will actually survive and thrive longterm.

Dascyllus Damsels (3 stripe, 4 stripe, domino etc.) - Is anybody ever happy they added these fishes to their tank? This genus represents a good chunk of the fish "horror stories" that people love to talk about (mine was a Hoeven's wrasse, go figure :rolleyes:), and if it's not a situation where some poor soul simply didn't expect that little black and white guppy to turn into a murderous tyrant, than it was one of those people that still insists on putting animals through torturous conditions to cycle their tank, only to toss the surviving fish after the tank is nice and broken into. The bottom line is this - there are too many other benign, affordable, and brightly colored damsel species to keep selling the Dexter Morgan of damselfish (minus the vague morals and strange likability) using the excuse "people need damsels".

Baby Clown Triggers (Balistoides conspicillum) - By far THE most popular among novice hobbyists IME, at least when it comes to asking "would that be okay in my tank?". These fish are misleading, and I can guarantee you *most* people in this hobby do not have a tank large enough to comfortably house a full grown clown trigger, especially given their restrictive temperament and propensity to nip on things (like power chords :spin1:). They may sell quickly, but if they even survive to maturity they will most likely rip whoever is unlucky enough to be roomies with them to shreds. Not very fish friendly, let alone reef friendly.

Juvenile Panther Groupers (Cromileptes altivelis) - Like aquatic dalmatian puppies, they're freaking adorable... unfortunately like the clown trigger, they simply won't mingle well in 95% of tanks out there if they even make it to maturity. They grow way too big for any but the most massive of tanks and are highly predatory, so anything that can fit in his mouth is going there eventually. They're pretty much the opposite of pajama cardinals and foxfaces, everyone thinks they're beautiful, but they won't thrive in most tanks.

Sharks in general - Making it at the top of the wish list of every frat house that found a 75g on Craigslist, and of every guy that walks in asking "how much that is?", sharks really need to be one of those special orders people need to request, otherwise they end up in tanks that just won't work longterm. I've seen too many bamboo sharks crammed in the 55g tanks of high school students to think that most of these sharks are going to 500g+ sparsely decorated tanks or ponds with the appropriate tank mates.

Baby Clown Tangs - Same as so many on this list, poor survival rate and even if they *do* make it to a decent size, they more often than not prove to be terrors in the aquarium. Many perish even before being sold, so it's beyond me why stores keeping bringing them in. The larger specimens fair much better and can thrive in large enough tanks that don't house competitors that may cause them to "snap".

Vlamingii Tangs - Ever wonder why you constantly see these fish taking up residence in the coral runways at your local fish stores? It's because these personable, puppy like fish grow to a whopping 2 feet long! I'll admit, I had one ('Hudson') in my 120g for a year, but all along I knew he'd be going to a 1,600g reef, so it wasn't something I had to scramble to figure out once he got too big. These are one of the most commonly returned fish IME and so most end up just being tossed in whatever tanks are available, thus the trend of the scuffed up, HLLE ridden vlamingii tanks schooling under the surface as you pick out your next frag. They're wonderful fish, but just be sure you know you'll have somewhere for him to go once he gets too large for your tank. In my reckoning, these fish *should* be available, but just not in the numbers they are currently.

Horseshoe Crabs - Nobody has tanks for these poor guys, and considering their natural lifespan, it's a sad thing to consider their success rate in captivity long term.

... *steps off soap box*... *ahem* ... That is all :bigeyes:




Well said, totally agree. I hate it when I go into my local Petco to buy dog food and I take a look in the SW section and see juvenile clown triggers and juvenile clown tangs.

I always wonder, who goes to Petco to buy that fish?

I can only assume they are impulse buys or someone who's literally just buying his tank and is picking out fish that look 'pretty' without any shred of research.

It's sad to think of the fate of most of those fish, considering the journey they have all had to get to that point.

I wish they would create a list of those types of fish and make it so you require a license to sell that type, so places like divers den, NYAquatic, reefwise and other reputable LFS can only sell them, and require full disclosure on there size/temperament. That would make them like a special order item. It would at least reduce the impulse/un-researched buy, and allow buyer to see quite clearly how large the fish gets and its temperament.

It would actually help Petco long term if they just sold beginner fish, there'd be less losses in there own tanks, and also they have a 7 day livestock guarantee I think, so there'd be less payouts on that and what they do have to pay out would be cheaper.
 
Look at the number of stores still trying to sell people damsels 'to cycle the tank' ---when damsels do not belong in any 30 gallon tank. 100 minimum for a lot of species.
 
I didn't count those. There's no article describing the image. I do know yellow tangs are predominately collected from Hawaii where I believe collection practices and sustainability are some of the best in the world.

I did count this tang though. And I don't think the image needs a description.

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