Tunze - False Advertisement?

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So what do you propose? Addendum stickers for 6 months and back to old packaging? I'm sure they're working on a way to address this concern.

says it right on the box
6305.jpg

Yes absolutely, every single package sitting on the shelf with this number printed directly on it should have a label put over it with the correct numbers.

Like I said other then that Tunze is doing an admirable job of dealing with this, but selling a product under false pretenses is never ok. Even if it was just a mistake.
 
says it right on the box

Alright. I guess I've never examined the box that closely. Just slap a new flow label on with a remark about a new shroud being worked on to improve flow.

Then customers see what they're getting and in 6 months time if they can call Tunze and get a new shroud or prop or both.
 
How do you know Tunze knew from the day it was built? They've never said that. They have been estimating flow based on calculations listed above, and for all intents and purposes those calculations have been accurate until they crossed some size threshold with the pumps.

Now Tunze will likely invest in more accurate testing methodology (like the advanced aquaria article uses), which I am sure is not cheap by any means.

seems like we are going in a circle, no ?

"however, later modifications to reduce noise relied on theoretical flow numbers and flow was lost to these modifications"


last modifications usually occur before the product is shipped., which means before I get it,
....

modifications, lowered flow. Tunze, failed to inform.
 
seems like we are going in a circle, no ?

"however, later modifications to reduce noise relied on theoretical flow numbers and flow was lost to these modifications"


last modifications usually occur before the product is shipped., which means before I get it,
....

modifications, lowered flow. Tunze, failed to inform.


No. Tunze shipped the 6105, had complaints of too much noise and made afformentioned "later modifications" which subsequently reduced flow but they did not realize that because they were working with THEORETICAL flow numbers. Since we do not know the age of the 6105 tested in the article we can only assume it is newer with the modifications that ultimately ended up reducing flow on THIS model.
 
Alright. I guess I've never examined the box that closely. Just slap a new flow label on with a remark about a new shroud being worked on to improve flow.

Then customers see what they're getting and in 6 months time if they can call Tunze and get a new shroud or prop or both.

No, slap a label with the correct numbers, and explain that there will be shroud available. Printing those numbers anywhere on the packaging is simply false advertising. It was a mistake before, but now we all know that Tunze knows.
 
"however, later modifications to reduce noise relied on theoretical flow numbers and flow was lost to these modifications"
this only applied to the 6105 IIRC and this could be read
"however, later modifications to reduce noise relied on theoretical flow numbers and flow was lost to these modifications" as was discovered in these tests our mistake was in not retesting the unit after modification
I still don't buy they knew about it before the results where presented to them.
 
No, slap a label with the correct numbers, and explain that there will be shroud available.

Ok...

Though I say that's kind of overkill since the end result in 6 months from now is a product meeting or exceeding the originally specified flow.
 
they knew this from the day 6105 was built, and now that the secret is out, they are taking action.

Imagine if Toyota did that with our car's and its breaks !!! LOL "oh yea ! sometimes the car wont stop, now that u know, we will fix it"

I'm not sure what your beef is. I can almost guarantee they didn't know this "from the day" that the 6105 was made. If you're upset that they didn't immediately post something when contacted by the authors, you're basically upset that they didn't take the data at face value. They've said that they are working to confirm the data, obtained with equipment which is fairly pricey, and are running further tests to make sure that the data is accurate. Measuring flow is not an exact science, especially when you take into account real life scenarios. What if another study shows that Vortechs lose 1/2 their output if there is rockwork in front of them while Tunze only loses 10% (not saying this is true, purely hypothetical). Would you castigate Vortech for not running that test ahead of time or would you assume that any disparity was unintentional? Given Ecotech's reputation, I would assume the latter there as well. You act like product testing is an inexpensive process. Tunze is a big name in aquariums but it's not a huge company. I doubt they have more then 20 employees.

In addition, they're planning on retrofitting the old pumps. If the cost of manufacturing a 6305 goes up from 300 to 315, wouldn't you expect the price to the consumer to go up as well?

Given the reputation of the company, the absolute integrity Roger has shown in every dealing I've ever had with him (and to my knowledge, anyone else he's dealt with), and the results that we've seen in tanks that use Tunzes, I have serious doubts that any attempt was made to deceive any customers.

If you are unhappy with your Tunze equipment, post it for sale and don't buy from them. Otherwise, please stop saying things that have no factual basis. It's natural to be upset when you perceive that the equipment you obtained doesn't meet the specifications that it purports. However, each company has put out products that don't meet what the specs report. Do you believe the gallonage specs for most protein skimmers out there? Even great companies like Bubbleking will put out products that don't end up working in the real world. They don't do so to deceive but because these things aren't always easy to test. I used to own a BMW 3 series and had to repair the automatic windows at 50K miles. My mechanic says it's a known problem with them and almost all of them for a couple years needed that repair. However, BMW, a company with a lot larger customer base and R&D budget, didn't catch it. To compound things, they didn't offer a recall or any discount in fixing the problem.

I've been happy with the Tunze equipment I've owned, from the 230 skimmer I bought years ago to the numerous Tunze powerheads and waveboxes I've owned. The company has always supported their product and the products have worked well. No theoretical test is going to make me stop using their products and I think it's a bonus to see that Tunze is going to step up to the plate and do their best to remedy the situation.
 
No. Tunze shipped the 6105, had complaints of too much noise and made afformentioned "later modifications" which subsequently reduced flow but they did not realize that because they were working with THEORETICAL flow numbers. Since we do not know the age of the 6105 tested we can only assume it is newer with the modifications that ultimately ended up reducing flow on THIS model.


so you know more inside info than Rogers from Tunze ? ! hmm

defending a company like you are doing right now, not knowing what the box looks like, yet defending them, makes them look worse !

I DO believe that Tunze pumps are good, and good enough by their own, no need to defend them.

anyways, I made the post I needed to make. I hope other reef companies take this as an example. soon the truth shall come out :)
 
I'm not sure what your beef is. I can almost guarantee they didn't know this "from the day" that the 6105 was made. If you're upset that they didn't immediately post something when contacted by the authors, you're basically upset that they didn't take the data at face value. They've said that they are working to confirm the data, obtained with equipment which is fairly pricey, and are running further tests to make sure that the data is accurate. Measuring flow is not an exact science, especially when you take into account real life scenarios. What if another study shows that Vortechs lose 1/2 their output if there is rockwork in front of them while Tunze only loses 10% (not saying this is true, purely hypothetical). Would you castigate Vortech for not running that test ahead of time or would you assume that any disparity was unintentional? Given Ecotech's reputation, I would assume the latter there as well. You act like product testing is an inexpensive process. Tunze is a big name in aquariums but it's not a huge company. I doubt they have more then 20 employees.

In addition, they're planning on retrofitting the old pumps. If the cost of manufacturing a 6305 goes up from 300 to 315, wouldn't you expect the price to the consumer to go up as well?

Given the reputation of the company, the absolute integrity Roger has shown in every dealing I've ever had with him (and to my knowledge, anyone else he's dealt with), and the results that we've seen in tanks that use Tunzes, I have serious doubts that any attempt was made to deceive any customers.

If you are unhappy with your Tunze equipment, post it for sale and don't buy from them. Otherwise, please stop saying things that have no factual basis. It's natural to be upset when you perceive that the equipment you obtained doesn't meet the specifications that it purports. However, each company has put out products that don't meet what the specs report. Do you believe the gallonage specs for most protein skimmers out there? Even great companies like Bubbleking will put out products that don't end up working in the real world. They don't do so to deceive but because these things aren't always easy to test. I used to own a BMW 3 series and had to repair the automatic windows at 50K miles. My mechanic says it's a known problem with them and almost all of them for a couple years needed that repair. However, BMW, a company with a lot larger customer base and R&D budget, didn't catch it. To compound things, they didn't offer a recall or any discount in fixing the problem.

I've been happy with the Tunze equipment I've owned, from the 230 skimmer I bought years ago to the numerous Tunze powerheads and waveboxes I've owned. The company has always supported their product and the products have worked well. No theoretical test is going to make me stop using their products and I think it's a bonus to see that Tunze is going to step up to the plate and do their best to remedy the situation.


BEEF ?

okay I read the first line ... beef ? and there is no "BEEF"

I thought we were having a friendly discussion, seems like we arent, so I retract

thanks all for the opportunity to post my opinion.


some ppl, like you, seem to not understand a discussion.

I personally am a biomedical eng. and lets just say, a mistake like this on my part, would mean my career, and probably my freedom ! lol

I love Tunze and I know Rogers and he is an Excellent person, but I am not discussing Rogers personality here ! you seem to not be following the discussion.

anyways, Out.
 
Ok...

Though I say that's kind of overkill since the end result in 6 months from now is a product meeting or exceeding the originally specified flow.

MAYBE, and the POSSIBLE result in 6 months is not the current pumps functional capacity. Period.
 
so you know more inside info than Rogers from Tunze ? ! hmm

defending a company like you are doing right now, not knowing what the box looks like, yet defending them, makes them look worse !



I bought my pumps and threw the boxes in the trash. The box I'm most recently acquainted with is a Tunze skimmer pump box which is mostly blue with the tunze logo all over it. (no specs on the box itself).. but this isn't something you'd typically see on a retail shelf like the flow pump boxes.

As for knowing more than Roger, no of course not. But the sense I get from Roger and Tunze as a whole does not lead me to believe they would deliberately mislead their customers.
 
Yes absolutely, every single package sitting on the shelf with this number printed directly on it should have a label put over it with the correct numbers.

Like I said other then that Tunze is doing an admirable job of dealing with this, but selling a product under false pretenses is never ok. Even if it was just a mistake.


Just curious why "X to Y" GPH is not acceptable if inaccurate, but estimated MPG on cars by the EPA that never meet those estimations is perfectly acceptable?

My wifes new Jetta TDI says it'll get me 40+ MPG highway and we're getting something like 35. I'm not on the horn with VW calling them bold faced liars... I know that's a "potential" that can be reached, but not a guarantee.

I'm not saying that Tunze can mislead it's customers or anything.
 
Just curious why "X to Y" GPH is not acceptable if inaccurate, but estimated MPG on cars by the EPA that never meet those estimations is perfectly acceptable?

My wifes new Jetta TDI says it'll get me 40+ MPG highway and we're getting something like 35. I'm not on the horn with VW calling them bold faced liars... I know that's a "potential" that can be reached, but not a guarantee.

I'm not saying that Tunze can mislead it's customers or anything.

Because that MPG has been attained in some test. The current iteration of the Tunze pumps can not, in any way, attain the claimed gph. In fact they almost can't attain 50% of that claim.
 
Because what MAY happen in the future is not an issue at this point. It is the fact that every single pump sold between now and the the possible retrofit is released is being sold under false pretenses. There is no defending this, no arguing this, no contending this. The packaging is a false advertisement in every sense of the term.

I agree, the fact that tunze acknowledges the findings in the report to be true but has yet to change the flow specs listed on their website and packaging is FALSE ADVERTISING!!! which was the point of the thread. If potential customers would like to purchase a tunze they should know they are getting exactly what they pay for.
 
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