Turbo snails falling on their backs!!

Turbos r VERY sensitive to magnesium. They can only handle 1380 tops. Chk your tank.....marc
+1 :beer: I had this same issue, they were basically falling off the glass and acting drunk. After searching I found some info on WetWet Media. I then realized that I had raised my mg too high. Lowered it and all was well again. As to temp, I think that is more acclimation, I've always run my tank warm and have lots of turbos with no issues, other than from high mg that one time. I do also see them die off sometime when algae runs out, they eat a lot, you really don't need many.
Hi djroxy and m2434:
I dose Mg nowadays only 3 times a week and it's just enough for coralline algae, so its only drops here and there on my 75gal. Yes, that could be somehow related, I guess. Like Gary and others have pointed out back in 2011. It could be also the combination of Mg and other elements in excess (?). They look like sick or affected by bacteria, but could the the effects of the water chemistry.

I would appreciate if all the reefers out there could chime in with their reports and their Mg readings from now on.
Thanks so much all of you for the help!

Please keep it rolling!!!:bounce1:

Grandis.
 
Grandis re: turbos

Grandis re: turbos

Just do a 20% water change, keep MG at 1350-1380 for 1 week. Add turbos and u will be a happy camper!! I've been at this hobby for 40yrs. Have a little faith...marc
 
Hi Grandis good to hear from you too..

I keep mag around 1400 plus ,as high as 1480 and haven't noticed issues with indo or mexican turbos or ceriths ,astrea or trocus. I don't keep a dense population of snails as algae is sparse. Never heard of a 1380ppm ceiling for turbo snails before.

Temps in my system run from 76 low to 80high. Sps and other corals do fine at these temps and share the same water as the seahorse tank. So, I keep it on the cooler side for them. Don't know if that's an issue for the snails or not aside from the mexican turbos which are a cooler water snail ; they do a nice job on red turf algae and others don't,btw;so, I try to deep a few around.
 
Thanks again guys!!
I think I'll try to drop the temp even more, perhaps around the 76/78°F in the future, if I have any problems with the snails. For now they're doing so good and I won't touch what's working.:D
Have a great 2013!! :celeb3::celeb2:

Grandis.
 
Just had my first turbo die. It might be from the first batch I got over a year ago, or one of the ones I got 7 months ago. I noticed one of them a few days ago looked weird because it had only part of the foot attached to the glass, like it was too weak to hang on (I think this is the one that died probably). Every once in a while since I got them I've had to help them turn over when they're lying on the sand.
 
Just had my first turbo die. It might be from the first batch I got over a year ago, or one of the ones I got 7 months ago. I noticed one of them a few days ago looked weird because it had only part of the foot attached to the glass, like it was too weak to hang on (I think this is the one that died probably). Every once in a while since I got them I've had to help them turn over when they're lying on the sand.

I believe that when they are hanging half way like that could be because of starvation. Make sure there is enough algae for them!
They could fall on their backs because of starvation too, getting so weak without food...
There are variables to the snails' deaths.

Grandis.
 
There were a few months where I didn't have an overabundance of algae because I was using gfo and carbon. But I've had more algae growing since I pulled it out a month ago (because my corals were looking bad and I figured out the water was too clean for them). So with the new growth I was thinking I need more snails because I don't have very many right now. But maybe there wasn't enough algae to sustain them before and that's why it died. Although there was always a layer of algae on the glass.
 
There were a few months where I didn't have an overabundance of algae because I was using gfo and carbon. But I've had more algae growing since I pulled it out a month ago (because my corals were looking bad and I figured out the water was too clean for them). So with the new growth I was thinking I need more snails because I don't have very many right now. But maybe there wasn't enough algae to sustain them before and that's why it died. Although there was always a layer of algae on the glass.

I'm not a fan of GFO. There are other ways to deal with phosphate better than that. Just me...
It's hard to reach that perfect quantity of snails for the algae we've got because it could change too, so...
I believe it could be a good idea sometimes to leave the lights on a little longer when there is less algae than the snails need. I use activated carbon only when needed.

Grandis.
 
I feel better with a little algae knowing that snails aren't starving and my corals are looking so much better than with running gfo. I can always throw a small bag in my sump to try to tame the algae a little. When I first set up my new tank there was no algae and I was feeding my snails those algae wafers. I still remember my bf teasing me, "you're hand-feeding snails?!" not that anything surprises him anymore, haha. I always liked snails, they're not just cleanup crew to me ;)
 
Hey Grandis, did you ever find an answer to the snail issue. The issue with their foot acting as if it was in pain and would not attach to anything? I ask bc some turbos I have keep flipping over and so I right them and they don't attach, they act as though they are in pain just like you explained before. It's so strange. I finally got one to attach to the glass and he has stayed in the same spot for four days now. Same with the others. They don't move around. There is plenty of algae for them so that's not an issue and I don't have any temp swings or Sg that I know of. Just wondering if you ever found an answer?
 
Hi LittleBee,

How's it? You have black hair now!! :D
I've been so busy...

Since I've posted the last time here I never had the problems anymore and I'be been paying more attention to alkalinity, calcium, strontium and magnesium. We know the snails need the elements to be able to do their calcification for the shells and I believe that Mg could be one of the key answers to some of the events we've experienced, when they fall and can't grab the rocks again with the "pain like reaction".

So the balance of alkalinity and calcium needs to be reached with probably strontium and magnesium, as far as we know today in order to help the calcification rates for the shells AND because that is part of the snail's natural metabolism (presence of available elements in the water for their well function).

Water changes would do part of it, I guess. I do water changes every other week now and add the elements as well 3 times a week in very small quantities. I don't keep hard corals and therefore I don't need too much of Ca/ Mg/ Sr. Just for the coralline and snails.

I do have many zoas, so alkalinity has to be on the good side too, which is also wonderful for the snails.

That's what I believe today.

I keep my temperature stable around the 77 to 79°F and the algae is little, but we know it's present in the system. The number of snails should be proportional with the algae available (surface area where algae is present).
But yes, since I've began to keep a closer eye on my alkalinity and adding the Mg/Sr/Ca when needed the problem disappeared at once.
My alkalinity is mainly kept with water changes and buffer, when/if needed.

Ca is around 380/400
Mg about 1350.
I try to keep alk around 8 dKH.
They are kinda connected and it should be maintained accordingly for a nice balance.
I don't measure strontium.

Hope that helps...

Grandis.
 
A sad update here...after I posted that one of them died, the four others died within 3 weeks. It was like every few days another one died. All with the same symptoms, falling down and then when I righted them they just stayed in the same spot and died. I can't think of anything I did differently right before this happened; all my parameters are stable and I do weekly 10% water changes.
 
It's been alright, I actually have dark brown hair but for some reason that picture decided it was black that day haha. Glad to hear that you haven't had any other deaths. Im still confused when it comes to my snails..

I checked the calc, alk and mag just two days ago and all were pretty good. I don't have the exact parameters right in front of me but if memory serves correctly, calcium was about 370, alk was 8.1 and mag was around 1200. mag is a little low but not too low right? I do weekly water changes and I use instant ocean reef crystals. Should I dose in tiny amounts maybe once a week? My snails are soo lethargic and havent moved from the same spot in going on 5 days now which means they are not eating. I know they are not dead bc their foot is indeed attached to the glass right above the sand. If I hold them up to the glass gently with my hand they will attach to the glass but if i place them on the sand they act like it hurts their foot to touch the sand just like you were describing. It is so strange. It's not like there isn's anything for them to eat either, there is plenty of algae from me possibly over feeding a bit. Any thoughts on my siutation would be appreciated. ammonia is zero, nitrite is zero and nitrate is less than 5ppm. temp is 78 and sg is 1.025.
 
After reading this thread, I can't understand what is going on. I have a 125 with two (2) very large turbos in it. They've been with me for years, in and out of many tanks. they fall all the time. I just pick them up and they reattach to the glass. My temp swings into the low 80's during the day with the lights on. My MAG is 1400 to 1500 mg/l.

They do have the whole tank to themselves as far as having enough algae to graze on. Maybe you just have too many in the tank?
 
It's been alright, I actually have dark brown hair but for some reason that picture decided it was black that day haha. Glad to hear that you haven't had any other deaths. Im still confused when it comes to my snails..

I checked the calc, alk and mag just two days ago and all were pretty good. I don't have the exact parameters right in front of me but if memory serves correctly, calcium was about 370, alk was 8.1 and mag was around 1200. mag is a little low but not too low right? I do weekly water changes and I use instant ocean reef crystals. Should I dose in tiny amounts maybe once a week? My snails are soo lethargic and havent moved from the same spot in going on 5 days now which means they are not eating. I know they are not dead bc their foot is indeed attached to the glass right above the sand. If I hold them up to the glass gently with my hand they will attach to the glass but if i place them on the sand they act like it hurts their foot to touch the sand just like you were describing. It is so strange. It's not like there isn's anything for them to eat either, there is plenty of algae from me possibly over feeding a bit. Any thoughts on my siutation would be appreciated. ammonia is zero, nitrite is zero and nitrate is less than 5ppm. temp is 78 and sg is 1.025.

Yep, all the params are fine but the Mg and Ca are kinda on the lower side. Try dose some very slowly and in tiny amounts. The Instant Ocean is supposed to be high in Mg, so just add small, if so... Make sure the tests are actually accurate first.
I almost aways have undetectable nitrates/phosphates.
My specific gravity is 1023. Yours, at 1.025, is more favorable to the Mg.

To me the major concerns with the snail's problem in discussion could be:
1) Quantity of snails per system.
If too many in a small system, normally less food...
I've had tons of snails in a 55gal. system for years reproducing like crazy when I had metal halides. Plenty algae!! Was a very well balance system. So it's relative.
2) Temperature and water chemistry (Ca, Mg, Alk, Sr).
Balance needed. Stability is good in the long run. I've also had Turbo snails for long time in a system with stable temperature around 80°F+ (again, metal halides). I do believe that in a lower temp. they tend to do best. I find them in the low temperature environments in the wild.
3) Snails' size and species. Turbo snails tend to have the problem more than any other species I've tied. The problem happens more often with adults than with juveniles IME. Trochus spp. are probably among the best to keep.
4) Lack of the right algae for them. There are some species of micro algae that the snails just don't eat. most of them are green. They like when the brown algae is in abundance IME. So many times, when the system is still getting mature, the presence of brown algae is great for the snails. With the time the system tends to have more green algae than brown algae. The number of snails per gallons should decrease.
5) Good water flow with great dissolved oxygen. Pumps towards the surface are great for that, specially when there is no sump. The drop in the overflow helps to add oxygen in the water.
6) Normally crystal clear water is also good for them!! I'm using carbon more often lately (not too much!) and making sure the water changes are doing it's job replenishing trace elements. I also add some amino acids for my zoas and I believe that helps some of the snails' needs (?). A good skimmer will also be a great help here with the constant removal of dissolved organics!
7) The presence of phosphates will help the algae to be there for the snails, yes. I know that is checked when I'm feeding the fishes and zoas, and I know that phosphates shouldn't be in excess, so the balance needs to be reached. Common sense.

I don't ignore the possibility of bacterial infection on their feet. And If so, that would be probably related to their immune system with lack of elements like Mg in the water and/or temp. Of course could be related to more than 2 aspects and that is still a great question mark in my head!!!
Monitoring Mg and alkalinity were the major changes I've done to test for the problem. I see them as the best easy solution, generally speaking.

The combination of factors and stability are very important.

Hope that helps a bit.
Good luck to you! :)

Grandis.
 
After reading this thread, I can't understand what is going on. I have a 125 with two (2) very large turbos in it. They've been with me for years, in and out of many tanks. they fall all the time. I just pick them up and they reattach to the glass. My temp swings into the low 80's during the day with the lights on. My MAG is 1400 to 1500 mg/l.

They do have the whole tank to themselves as far as having enough algae to graze on. Maybe you just have too many in the tank?

I know what you mean...
Yep, alk and Mg.
The presence of the right algae and available surface area for them to graze.

Grandis.
 
I kinda liked this aquascape.
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28.jpg

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4.jpg

29.jpg

?
Can't see the images.
?

Grandis.
 
No one has mentions dinos yet. If I remember correctly dino's are toxic to snails and a whole host of other things when eaten.

Grandis: are you sure your diatom outbreak wasn't a dino outbreak?
 
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