Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[judgedread]

It's not that high and tanks are different. Since you aren't getting any signs of excess bacterial growth , the 4mls might be right for your tank now;though it seems high for a maintenance dose.

It can take months in some cases to bring down intial NO3 levels. Some folks just keep upping the dose but that carries an increased risk for a bacterial bloom or total organic carbon buildup. Water changes to bring them down in a smaller tank or a sulfur dentrator in a larger system followed by a maintenance dose to keep them low is easier,safer and faster,ime.

I've never used bacterial supplements. They aren't necessary,imo.

If it were my 170l tank I'd do a series of 15% water changes while continuing to dose and probably tweak back the dose a bit once the nitrate level was under 5ppm. To keep the dose constant , you can add a proportionate amount to the replacement water.

Thanx TMZ !!

you Da Man....will let you know how i go.

:beer:

 

[tmz]

You are welcome . Good luck.
Just for clarification , in post 421 you list your tank at 170l/ I just noticed your description at the bottom of your posts lists 120l. I was basing my comments on 170l. If it's 120l then 4ml of your mix is equivalent to about .127 ml per gallon which is higher than most use ;about douible what I dose fwiw.

 

[Aquarist007]

Tom what happens or can happen when you continue to dose carbon( vodka) after you have readings of zero nitrates
In my tank I still have cyano on the substrate even with maintence of it. Perhaps it is feeding on bacteria that have died off due to limiting the nitrates

 

[AYZ]

Judge,
How much sugar, vodka , vinegar doesthe vsv contain. Sugar is 2.5 as strong as vodka ; vodka is 8xs as strong as vinegar in terms of organic carbon content? Sine I don't use sugar I need the pro[portions to compare your dsingamount to mine.

Nitrates at 50 could take a while to drop. In some cases it takes months. Reducing them with water changes or otherwise before starting the carbon dosing makes it much quicker and easier to reach a maintenance dose. What is the PO4? The bacteria need some to go with the nitrates and organic carbon.

Hi Tom, how much times vitamin C stronger then vodka (or other way around)? And is sugar and vitamin C would be similar or same source of additive? Thank you

 

[tmz]

Hi Tom, how much times vitamin C stronger then vodka (or other way around)? And is sugar and vitamin C would be similar or same source of additive? Thank you

If it's dry it's approximately 2.5 times as strong as 80proof/40% vodka in terms of carbon content.

Vitamin C is ascorbic acid:C6H8O6.

Sugar is a term describing a range of carbohydraes; usually the ratio of C to H to O in sugar is Cn H2n On. For example: glucose is C6 H12 O6.

Ethanol (80 proof vodka is 40% ethanol and 60% water) is:C2 H6 O

Acetic acid (standard vinegar is 5% acetic acid and 95%% water) is C2H4O2.

For our purposes simply discounting the water(dilution) gives useful relative strengths in terms of organic carbon . For those who want to calculate more precisely with molecular weights etc., it can get complicated and won't effect actual dosing levels much more than accounting for the water( dilution level).

 

[tmz]

Tom what happens or can happen when you continue to dose carbon( vodka) after you have readings of zero nitrates
In my tank I still have cyano on the substrate even with maintenance of it. Perhaps it is feeding on bacteria that have died off due to limiting the nitrates

Probably not much if the tank is being fed. From what I've read and cited earlier in this thread the bacteria involved seem to take ammonia directly for N. Tyically we see the N as NO3. Nitrogen deficiencies are possible but unlikely in a tank with fish that are well fed.

I don't think the bacteria just lay down fodder for cyano. I think they'd have no trouble scavenging their own mulm and nieghbors if degradation occurred of the colony occured but it's possible cyano might benefit from unused extra P if any if the bacteria were nitrogen limited.

 

[Aquarist007]

Probably not much if the tank is being fed. From what I've read and cited earlier in this thread the bacteria involved seem to take ammonia directly for N. Tyically we see the N as NO3. Nitrogen deficiencies are possible but unlikely in a tank with fish that are well fed.

I don't think the bacteria just lay down fodder for cyano. I think they'd have no trouble scavenging their own mulm and nieghbors if degradation occurred of the colony occured but it's possible cyano might benefit from unused extra P if any if the bacteria were nitrogen limited.

Tks
How does one explain the cyano along the substrate. The tank water is crystal clear, no visible algae even on the glass.
No trace of nitrates and phosphates, running Rowaphos, Nitraguard pellets and dosing 10 mL vodka daily

 

[tmz]

There are a number of possible contributors to cyanobacterial growth ,for example;

CO2 from the bacterial activity;

inorganic phosphate unbinding from substrate or rock as PO4 in the water is lowered;

detritus buildups;

a lower iron level giving an edge to cyano,a very good iron scavenger vs competitors for the other nutrients;

inorganic phosphate;

reduction in competition by organisms more easily limited by lower N and P .

If you think it's a nitrogen defeciency contributing the cyano via a lack of PO4 reduction , bacteria dying et alia you can experiment with Na NO3( sodium nitrate additions) to see if the cyano wanes at say NO3 1 ppm or more.

 

[AYZ]

Thank you for quick and useful answer.

 

[Aquarist007]

There are a number of possible contributors to cyanobacterial growth ,for example;

CO2 from the bacterial activity;

inorganic phosphate unbinding from substrate or rock as PO4 in the water is lowered;

detritus buildups;

a lower iron level giving an edge to cyano,a very good iron scavenger vs competitors for the other nutrients;

inorganic phosphate;

reduction in competition by organisms more easily limited by lower N and P .

If you think it's a nitrogen defeciency contributing the cyano via a lack of PO4 reduction , bacteria dying et alia you can experiment with Na NO3( sodium nitrate additions) to see if the cyano wanes at say NO3 1 ppm or more.

I think it's still leaching from my old rock. I remember in the old system when phosphates and nitrates were high for who knows how long. I kept 200lbs of it in a refugium and 100 in the dt.the rock in the dt went through a cyano stage and cleared up.
I can see the refugium rock still leaching and that being deposited to the substrate in the dt as that is where the flow is initially directed

Guess I have to be more patient lol

 

[007Bond]

Have you looked at the LC thread(just a thought). I'm on my 3rd round of pulling my LR from my DT,:headwallblue:...mainly due to me rushing things.

 

[Aquarist007]

Have you looked at the LC thread(just a thought). I'm on my 3rd round of pulling my LR from my DT,:headwallblue:...mainly due to me rushing things.

No do you have the link

 

[007Bond]

Its a very long thread,....Gary started it in 2008 and its still being added to. You could read the first part( get the gist of it) and skip to the latter part if you want. I used LC (Lanthanum Chloride) @ Gary's directions/method but there are many other ideas on how to administer it through the thread.---Rick

Here is the link> http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839

 

[trueblackpercula]

I want to start dosing vodka and vinegar, I have about 100 to 110 gallons of water after subtracting sand rocks etc. What should my daily dose be to start out? Thanks

 

[tmz]

Each tank is differnt , so it's difficult to precisely prescribe a general start up protocol. The conservative start up schedules for vodka cited in the article noted earlier in this thread can be used for vinegar as well by just multiplying the vinegar amount by 8. They are pretty safe for most situations but may be on the slow side.

I dose 36 ml of 80 proof vodka and 80 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar daily at this time . That's the eqiuvalent of 46 ml of vodka for 650 gallons of water / 0.07ml per gallon ;or, the other way ,it's equivalent to 448 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar/0.69 per gallon.

If I were starting out I'd dose about 10% of that to start and amp it a little bit each day,say 1%per day over the course of 3 to weeks to be on the safe side. Some go faster.

 

[Aquarist007]

Each tank is differnt , so it's difficult to precisely prescribe a general start up protocol. The conservative start up schedules for vodka cited in the article noted earlier in this thread can be used for vinegar as well by just multiplying the vinegar amount by 8. They are pretty safe for most situations but may be on the slow side.

I dose 36 ml of 80 proof vodka and 80 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar daily at this time . That's the eqiuvalent of 46 ml of vodka for 650 gallons of water / 0.07ml per gallon ;or, the other way ,it's equivalent to 448 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar/0.69 per gallon.

If I were starting out I'd dose about 10% of that to start and amp it a little bit each day,say 1%per day over the course of 3 to weeks to be on the safe side. Some go faster.

Don't know if you explained it before but why did you chose both vodka and vinegar rather then just one or the other?

 

[trueblackpercula]

Each tank is differnt , so it's difficult to precisely prescribe a general start up protocol. The conservative start up schedules for vodka cited in the article noted earlier in this thread can be used for vinegar as well by just multiplying the vinegar amount by 8. They are pretty safe for most situations but may be on the slow side.

I dose 36 ml of 80 proof vodka and 80 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar daily at this time . That's the eqiuvalent of 46 ml of vodka for 650 gallons of water / 0.07ml per gallon ;or, the other way ,it's equivalent to 448 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar/0.69 per gallon.

If I were starting out I'd dose about 10% of that to start and amp it a little bit each day,say 1%per day over the course of 3 to weeks to be on the safe side. Some go faster.

Tmz thanks so I did dose vodka In the past and my new question is ? Do the rules still apt as with dosing vodka? Like once po4 and nitrate go to zero cut dose in half or to I just keep dosing the same amout no matter what?

 

[Aquarist007]

Tmz thanks so I did dose vodka In the past and my new question is ? Do the rules still apt as with dosing vodka? Like once po4 and nitrate go to zero cut dose in half or to I just keep dosing the same amout no matter what?

Same situation .. I was told to keep it the same. Probably because my fish are now alcoholics and the stress of withdrawal would be too much for them and they would get "Absolute" ich :eek1:

 

[tmz]

I don't think you need to get it to zero PO4 and NO3. Personally I like to keep smal amounts of PO4 and NO3 available ( 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm and 0.2ppm NO3)

The long term maintenance dose will likely be different probably lower than the dose you use to reduce it;more so if you start with high NO3 and PO4. .

The best I can do with your question in light of the different variables in tanks is to say most settle in at a maintenance dose of .04ml to .08ml per gallon of vodka/vodka equivalents.
In start up , I probably wouldn't go past the middle of that range even if it took longer to reduce levels.
If NO3 was very high at the start t I'd reduce it with water changes and or a denitrator before beginning organic carbon dosing. It's easier to find the maintenance dose that way with less risk of excess bacterial activity, IME.

I dose both because it's how I started. I think I explained it in some detail earlier.
Initially I dosed only vodka; tried to covert to vinegar because there was some cyano at startup and some folks reported anecdotally vinegar was less likely to cause it. Shifted 25% to vinegar ,then another 25% . On the second 25% shift cyano increased , backed off to a 75% ethaonl 25% acetic acid dose and stayed there. Retrospectively, I think the cyano is a start up issue probably realted to die off in competition as the new bacteria reduce nutreint levels or perhaps the extra CO2 from the added bacterial activity gives it a boost. I haven't had a cyano issue in many years. I personally don't think vodka or vinegar are more or less likely to enhance cyano growth directly.

 

[Aquarist007]

I don't think you need to get it to zero PO4 and NO3. Personally I like to keep smal amounts of PO4 and NO3 available ( 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm and 0.2ppm NO3)

The long term maintenance dose will likely be different probably lower than the dose you use to reduce it;more so if you start with high NO3 and PO4. .

The best I can do with your question in light of the different variables in tanks is to say most settle in at a maintenance dose of .04ml to .08ml per gallon of vodka/vodka equivalents.
In start up , I probably wouldn't go past the middle of that range even if it took longer to reduce levels.
If NO3 was very high at the start t I'd reduce it with water changes and or a denitrator before beginning organic carbon dosing. It's easier to find the maintenance dose that way with less risk of excess bacterial activity, IME.

I dose both because it's how I started. I think I explained it in some detail earlier.
Initially I dosed only vodka; tried to covert to vinegar because there was some cyano at startup and some folks reported anecdotally vinegar was less likely to cause it. Shifted 25% to vinegar ,then another 25% . On the second 25% shift cyano increased , backed off to a 75% ethaonl 25% acetic acid dose and stayed there. Retrospectively, I think the cyano is a start up issue probably realted to die off in competition as the new bacteria reduce nutreint levels or perhaps the extra CO2 from the added bacterial activity gives it a boost. I haven't had a cyano issue in many years. I personally don't think vodka or vinegar are more or less likely to enhance cyano growth directly.

A couple of questions or thoughts

Tom I am beginning to wonder if you continue to use ethanol and or acetic acid at a dose that you used when you brought the n and p levels down that some cyano occurs?
Or maybe it is just die off of bacteria being limited by the low n and p levels

Cyano could be induced by the extra organic carbon not being used by the denitrifying bacteria?
In my case I had some cyano on the substrate that just would not go away til I backed off on the vodka dosing