Vortech Tunze and Jebao
- Thread starter rog2961
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windlasher
New member
It was my intention that the subject be dropped.
Potatohead
New member
It's a personal thing to some people. In fact, it has become so commonplace that people have lost jobs and income to outsourcing that it is a literal joke now. They took our jerbs!!! My wife has four months left working for an American company that has been producing products in the current factory for over eighty years. You can guess where the new factory will be.
A couple times in this thread people have pointed out that Japan built crap cars in the 70's and now they are everywhere. This is a terrible comparison - Japan did not steal to get where they are. They built and innovated some of the best cars, motorcycles and engines the world has seen. Honda in the late 90's was building the best FWD cars of all time, and they were bombproof. Sport bikes? Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawi, Honda, all Japanese. They were the first to bring to market variable valve timing in production cars. The Japanese innovated and surpassed. It also certainly helped that American cars of that vintage were also typically garbage. I can assure you that a Vortech or Tunze powerhead is a lot better than a 2002 Chevy Malibu.
Hate is a strong word, but I HATE how our society is when it comes to this, and how disposable products have become. I simply don't get why someone would rather pay $200 twice than $400 once (or less). The former has much more waste, more used up resources, and you're supporting a Chinese company (twice) opposed to an American company, or at the very least one of her allies. We may not see it in our lifetimes, but one day this is all going to backfire in a huge, huge way.
Mrs. Music
New member
It is very interesting all the points you all bring up. Amazing how economics and politics come into this expensive hobby thru our purchasing power. Most of us whom last more than a few years anyway, are thinkers. It is a big part of why we do it. We need it. We need the challenge, the science, the art and beauty of it. This thread highlights the spectrum of thinking from the simplist way of thinking to the bigger picture way of thinking. I always learn something new here. Thank you. And a special thank you to Scott. Clearly a bigger picture kinda of man and whom places great value on the human being behind the keyboards. You taking the high road elevated this entire discussion.
More to say when I have access to a real keyboard...this iPhone key board is making me crosseyed.
More to say when I have access to a real keyboard...this iPhone key board is making me crosseyed.
This is a reef discussion, at any point. Any reef discussion should lay on the fundamentals of integrity, pride and decency. Without any foundation, what else matters?
It is indifference and ignorance that allows all this kind of stuff to happen. I get indifference - I only wish that people had the sack to say that they don't care instead of making excuses or false equivalencies... most don't. If only one person now realizes what Jebao is/does and selected a different product, then I will feel better. If everybody took a few seconds like this to help lay a foundation... well, use your imagination as to what is possible. Too many people know deep down and do nothing.
Taking about performance is a bit of a red herring, but probably inevitable. Sure, the performance sucks and the long-term costs almost always benefit the old saying that "nobody has enough money to be cheap", but these are too easy to explain away the the foundation and fundamentals must be addressed to make any difference.
FirstContact
Active member
No actually the point was Japan built better cars in the 70s and your wrong everyone accused them of stealing! If you use running gear or athletic gear none of it is made in the USA. Nike Reebok, Asics all made overseas. Just like your phones. So Jebao and Chinese products will be getting better and better. And I'd much rather pay $200 rather than $800 which isn't chump change.
Would never happen. There is a difference between status and quality, the two dont always go hand in hand. Apple doesnt make better computers, nor do they make better phones, but their branding is hot and people want to be seen as associating with it.
Potatohead
New member
I don't get your point here man. Reebok and Nike are American companies, and Asics is a Japanese company and Adidas is a German company. While I would love them to manufacture goods in their home countries, this is the way of the current world. The difference is they are not Chinese based companies who are protected by their own government and stealing is not a normal way of life for them. Japan and its car companies were never like that either.
In any event, Jebao could build the best pumps in the world in twenty years (yeah right) but I don't care about that, I care about what is happening now.
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FirstContact
Active member
My point is for all your above flustering you can't stop the global economy. Your obviously too young and weren't around in the 70s when everyone accused Japan of the same things they accuse China of today. People hated Japan just like you hate China. Everyone thought Japan was stealing everything and committing fraud with their cameras and copying everything. And Japan was going to take over the world economically. In the end the they didn't. I chose Jebao's RW15 because I like them better than the comparable Tunzes or Vortechs. This hobby and this forum is for everyone and not just Mr. Potatohead and his own point of view. So you enjoy your Tunzes and Vortechs and good luck to your wife's new pursuits in looking for a new job.
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tkeracer619
New member
Try this with ANY other pump.. 3 years no maintence. These were taken just before a thorough cleaning. Tunze for the win! There is NOTHING that can handle the abuse a Tunze can! 7 years of abuse on the 3 Tunze's in my main display and still going despite turning on and off every fraction of a second.
That is over 1" thick coraline and the pump was still producing great flow.
I had to soak them in vinegar for over an hour just to get them apart. LOL
Dangit! I just cleaned my mp40 wetsides yesterday. I thought about taking a pic but didn't want to brag about neglecting my hardware :lol:
One of them had enough coraline on them to make that set of tunzes blush
This thread starts with loud vortechs. They're not loud. Even the originals weren't that loud but the qd pumps are quiet.
I love my vortechs. Have a bunch of experience with other brands but you'd have a hard time prying the vortechs from my cold dead hands.
victorcan
Member
Every company copies things and innovates above the company they copied.. Why aren't cavemen getting royalties from the modern day wheel ?
Very true.. I have 3 vortices and a Jaebo wp40.. Koralias are junk Imo but the Jaebo are insanely good for the price.
Only Problem I have had in nearly 2 years of continuous on and off of my Jaebo is the fact I can't drop it below 30% or it doesn't turn on.. Ive got the Apex controller for my unit and have created some insane wave patterns but all of them have to incorporate 30% or more flow, and for me its fine..
Im all about American Jobs and interest but lets be honest, Tunze is good (never owner a powerhead though my ATO is powered by tunze) but your supporting Germany the mother of all screw ups when it comes to global trade initiatives, and Eco tech whom I own 5 Radions 3 MP40's and just ordered a LP1 are made in China, so great that some engineer here got paid in American $.. And I am an America Great Again Fan, but he will solve this problem and level the playing field if the damn Dems allow him to do his job.. All said as stated previously everything is stolen somewhere along the line and if we allow capitalism to do its thing the EcoTech company (whom I do Love) will stop gouging us with$400 pumps that at the end of the day are costing them $50 with their R&D costs incorporated.
AMEN Brother!
Potatohead
New member
The patent ran out 6000 years ago. I'm not sure what Trump has to do with anything but I hear he makes the best, I mean the greatest, I mean the BEST wheels.
victorcan
Member
Im sorry for invoking the Trump name, got caught up with the "Make America Great Slogan" LOL.. None the less There is no way to improve upon technology if someone else doesn't copy your product and sell for cheaper, I am a manufacturer of multiple products and trust me it truly infuriates me every time someone in my industry copies my hard work and development, but at the same time it has also pushed me to improve upon my own products and in return the cycle starts all over again. Im not saying its nice or even acceptable but in all truth progress comes from this ugly practice.. As I stated I own 3 Vortechs and only 1 Jaebo..There is a reason for that, mostly because while the Jaebo works the Vortechs just excel in more ways than the jaebo can compete and as a result its my primary option. But as a supplemental item the Jaebo has exceeded my expectations and continues to push Ecotech to improve on my next decision for accessories.. And for the record( Im saying this with a smile with no ill will) patents can be extended forever if you have the right legal team, just look at cocacola
alton
Well-known member
Man now you did it, making fun of the Koralia's. I have three that are 4+ years old and still work fine. That is a much better record than Jebao. I have only owned 1 Jebao 120v pump, it drew three times the wattage on the label and heated up my tank four degree's. I also like my Tunze and Vortech pumps. Now back to the arguments that Jebao continues to get free press with by copying the look of one pump and using the initials close to another. And please stop using the argument "I can buy three Jebao's for the price of one", we are filling up landfills way to fast.
I am interested in facts and hopefully will learn something from here. So anyone actually familiar with patent law please offer some insight.
This thread caught my attention because I am in the market for a pair of powerheads. I already have an old vortech mp40 and a jebao in the tank. The MP40 is noisy but it performs better than the Jebao. So I am almost decided on a pair of MP40's. Especially with the Reeflink addition. I made my decision based on merit and willing to pay the price. With this said I have owned a few Jebaos some at least 4 years old and never had quality problems.
What I am interested to know what patent Jebao has violated. And what it has copied that other manufactures have not. Jebao clearly has not copied form Vortech except for the model number in their first gen products. Very different design. One can say Jebao copied Tunze because both are DC controlled pumps (for argument sake let's say Tunze invented this) but there are quite a few other manufactures introduced DC controlled pumps even after Jebao! As a matter of fact all the wavemakers look very similar except Vortech's.
Now the Gyre. It is clearly copied from Maxspect. Why is it continue to be allowed to be sold in the US? Maybe the Gyre design is not the first of it's kind? I am pretty sure the first thing the Maxspect people thought about was to get a patent to protect it's invention, unless it is an old design that cannot be patented.
So we have a company that copies other companies' products but this happens all the time. If you look at the cars on the road they all have similar features. So clearly car makers all copy from each other.
So what is unethical or wrong here? Again I am not trying to choose side here just want to gain some insight into this.
This thread caught my attention because I am in the market for a pair of powerheads. I already have an old vortech mp40 and a jebao in the tank. The MP40 is noisy but it performs better than the Jebao. So I am almost decided on a pair of MP40's. Especially with the Reeflink addition. I made my decision based on merit and willing to pay the price. With this said I have owned a few Jebaos some at least 4 years old and never had quality problems.
What I am interested to know what patent Jebao has violated. And what it has copied that other manufactures have not. Jebao clearly has not copied form Vortech except for the model number in their first gen products. Very different design. One can say Jebao copied Tunze because both are DC controlled pumps (for argument sake let's say Tunze invented this) but there are quite a few other manufactures introduced DC controlled pumps even after Jebao! As a matter of fact all the wavemakers look very similar except Vortech's.
Now the Gyre. It is clearly copied from Maxspect. Why is it continue to be allowed to be sold in the US? Maybe the Gyre design is not the first of it's kind? I am pretty sure the first thing the Maxspect people thought about was to get a patent to protect it's invention, unless it is an old design that cannot be patented.
So we have a company that copies other companies' products but this happens all the time. If you look at the cars on the road they all have similar features. So clearly car makers all copy from each other.
So what is unethical or wrong here? Again I am not trying to choose side here just want to gain some insight into this.
oseymour
Euphyllia Addict
We got off way off topic but with all the posts about copying, ip theft leading to losing jobs - no one is talking about technology as a reason.
I work for a digital marketing company, when I started 6 years ago it was a department of 10 people. Now there are 3 people handling the same amount of clients. We have expensive software that costs 100k a year that takes away some of the manual tasks such as research and creating reports that the other 7 people used to do - that's just in my office and I've seen it happen to friends. This is only going to accelerate. The reason I and the other 2 kept their jobs is because we were more comfortable with technology than the others.
Even in Mcdonalds now I see Kiosks where I don't need a person to take my order, I punch a few buttons and my food is brought to me.
I used the Jebao pumps but I have reasonable expectations of them. A lot of us purchase cheap things yet have unreasonable expectations that they should last a long time - we fall for the marketing hype or gimmick.
I work for a digital marketing company, when I started 6 years ago it was a department of 10 people. Now there are 3 people handling the same amount of clients. We have expensive software that costs 100k a year that takes away some of the manual tasks such as research and creating reports that the other 7 people used to do - that's just in my office and I've seen it happen to friends. This is only going to accelerate. The reason I and the other 2 kept their jobs is because we were more comfortable with technology than the others.
Even in Mcdonalds now I see Kiosks where I don't need a person to take my order, I punch a few buttons and my food is brought to me.
I used the Jebao pumps but I have reasonable expectations of them. A lot of us purchase cheap things yet have unreasonable expectations that they should last a long time - we fall for the marketing hype or gimmick.
Potatohead
New member
There simply are not enough resources to keep it all out of other countries. Chinese copies have been around for a long time (in pretty much every industry), and unfortunately they aren't going anywhere. Companies are left to police it themselves - I work in close relation with Bosch, and the amount of money they spend each year defending their product is crazy (hint, more than the GDP of some countries).
Cars are a bad example. Cars are obviously much more complex than pumps, and each car built and sold here has many hundreds of patents. I'm not a patent lawyer but as far as I know you are not able to get a patent on something as basic as car (or pump) architecture. Car companies also don't build the entire car, there are dozens of companies' parts in each car. Ford isn't making their own fuel systems, control modules or tires, for example.
Of course, the Chinese copy cars too. Do these look familiar?
The only reason these cars are not sold here is because they don't meet emissions or crash standards (imagine that). Unfortunately I have no doubt these cars would sell if they were actually allowed in.
Of course the easiest solution to get rid of all of this is for people to stop buying it.
Horseplay - you said it yourself. The gyre example is as clear as it gets for theft. Even if you want to argue that they did not steal the Tunze patents (the patent numbers are on the side of the box, BTW, and it is pretty clear that they did indeed steal them), then you still know that they stole something else in the Gyre. How is that good enough? The IP theft is what is wrong, not that they are made in China. BTW- these are not sold in the US... they are shipped here from overseas off of a website where USPS cannot check every box that comes in. This disgust that you feel with the gyre should be extended to all of their products, IMO - they are the same.
For the tenth time, global industry is not a huge issue here, it is IP and Patent stealing. This will affect everybody in the US and EU soon, if it has not already - I am really happy that it has not happened to some of you or else you would not still be using the same false equivalencies or excuses. The whole point is that China can copy anything that they want and cannot be touched - they rely on indifference or ignorance to sell their product. If GM thought that Ford, Honda, Isuzu, BWM (anybody from anywhere but China) stole their product, then they could have a say about it in court. There is a reason that Jebao has no US presence and relies in internet sales and shipping from overseas - they would get a lawsuit if they had a business here. There was a LFS here that bought Jebao pumps on the internet in bulk to sell and got a cease and desist letter from a patent holder and took them off the shelves.
If somebody wants to buy a German or Italian pump, then I will show no ire - they are on a level global playing field where IP is protected. Even a Chinese pump from a company that respects IP are fine. These are true competition which make all products better. Jebao steals which hurts everybody but them and will eventually cancel out innovation.
Coca Cola name is trademarked. The recipe is not patented - you have to give the recipe to the patent office where everybody can see it if you want to patent it. It is kept a huge secret and they would have no legal recourse after the patent was expired when people used the recipe. Same with KFC. There is a lot of armchair legal advice on this thread, but take it from a guy who almost lost a very expensive company and idea to China and another IP theft that nearly nobody has any idea what they are talking about. We turned out OK which was about a 1 in 20 shot. The other 19 companies get really hurt by this and US workers get laid off and suffer.
For the tenth time, global industry is not a huge issue here, it is IP and Patent stealing. This will affect everybody in the US and EU soon, if it has not already - I am really happy that it has not happened to some of you or else you would not still be using the same false equivalencies or excuses. The whole point is that China can copy anything that they want and cannot be touched - they rely on indifference or ignorance to sell their product. If GM thought that Ford, Honda, Isuzu, BWM (anybody from anywhere but China) stole their product, then they could have a say about it in court. There is a reason that Jebao has no US presence and relies in internet sales and shipping from overseas - they would get a lawsuit if they had a business here. There was a LFS here that bought Jebao pumps on the internet in bulk to sell and got a cease and desist letter from a patent holder and took them off the shelves.
If somebody wants to buy a German or Italian pump, then I will show no ire - they are on a level global playing field where IP is protected. Even a Chinese pump from a company that respects IP are fine. These are true competition which make all products better. Jebao steals which hurts everybody but them and will eventually cancel out innovation.
Coca Cola name is trademarked. The recipe is not patented - you have to give the recipe to the patent office where everybody can see it if you want to patent it. It is kept a huge secret and they would have no legal recourse after the patent was expired when people used the recipe. Same with KFC. There is a lot of armchair legal advice on this thread, but take it from a guy who almost lost a very expensive company and idea to China and another IP theft that nearly nobody has any idea what they are talking about. We turned out OK which was about a 1 in 20 shot. The other 19 companies get really hurt by this and US workers get laid off and suffer.
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