what do u think of seaworld

[billsreef]

Sure, I see what you are saying...

But I'm sure the giant squid researchers weren't so inspired because of the giant squid they saw doing silly pet tricks at the zoo

They usually started out with exposure to the more common smaller species

FYI, most marine biologists I know started their interest due to direct contact with marine life and the marine environment in some form

 

[mandarin_goby]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't most marine biologists prefer observing animals in their natural habitat? Behaviors in captivity don't necessarily correlate with behaviors in the wild. Serious question!

 

[KafudaFish]

Agreed

(I meant Corky the orca who swims upside down, I am not familiar with Corky the elephant)

Tangents appreciated, these things should be talked about and I appreciate your thoughts.

Opps and thank you for your desire to improve these situations.

 

[billsreef]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't most marine biologists prefer observing animals in their natural habitat? Behaviors in captivity don't necessarily correlate with behaviors in the wild. Serious question!

We always prefer being out in the field...sometimes just because we like being out of lab/office

In all seriousness, some work can only be done via field observation, and some requires the sorts of controls that can only be done via well designed lab research. I've made a career involving both

In fact I'm currently involved in a small project setting up several displays in the building for sake putting some typical S. Fl marine environments on display...primarily targeting providing some educational value to non marine science majors that wander our hallways. It's surprising how many people on the edge of the water are clueless about what is at their feet. First display I'm working on is a mangrove habitat...just got back from digging some mangrove mud for it...now I'm all hot, sweaty and smelling like marsh mud

 

[Luiz Rocha]

FYI, most marine biologists I know started their interest due to direct contact with marine life and the marine environment in some form

That's definitely what happened to me, and very early (when I was 9 years old). And it happened because of a fish tank that I saw in an aquarium shop and because of Cousteau's movies and other documentaries.

But I always thought there was something very wrong with having animals perform in very small and artificial environments (orcas/dolphis in pools or lions/tigers in circus stages).

 

[mandarin_goby]

I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me. Also, can we really provide an orca or whale shark with the proper care/environment? I don't think we can - is it ethical to keep such large animals with such a wide range in the wild in captivity? Don't orcas live in pods in the wild? We can't recreate that social structure in captivity. Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

 

[Ztrain]

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Humans do the same behavior what's the issue? Perhaps they are just mimicking us and trying to be cool. Okay I almost got that typed with a straight face.

 

[Zoodiver]

A good read about wild orcas still dying and no of the trendy social network groups are doing anything to help or notify people. Has more links that prove Blackfish is a money making scam (kind of like they claim SW is).

http://awesomeocean.com/2014/08/19/tweet-blackfish-orcas-dying/

 

[mandarin_goby]

^^I don't understand how Blackfish = people not caring about the plight of killer whales in the wild. I honestly don't see the connection. Why does buying into the message Blackfish tells mean we don't care about whales in the wild? It's not that black and white; A doesn't cause B, they're not mutually exclusive. Yes, rehab the whales and then set them free - I get that. But stop there. No breeding, no shows, no feeding the money-making machine.

Also, don't whales beach themselves because of health issues? Maybe the one whale that beached himself twice was past the point of hope? You implore people to not let emotions get in the way, but the way that story is presented was to garner emotions. They conveniently neglected to add what a necropsy may have showed...

 

[Fishfirst]

I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me. Also, can we really provide an orca or whale shark with the proper care/environment? I don't think we can - is it ethical to keep such large animals with such a wide range in the wild in captivity? Don't orcas live in pods in the wild? We can't recreate that social structure in captivity. Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

Yes they lost their first two Whale Sharks, but there is always a learning curve when you get new species. The new ones are doing much better.

 

[mandarin_goby]

Well, sad for those 2 whale shark guinea pigs then :/ what a shame. They died to contribute to the learning curve...will we ever learn? We can't mold some animals to thrive in an environment that suits *us.* why can't some see that that's just not right?

 

[billsreef]

I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Your welcome :beer: Now you just need to find a way to translate your research to have field time needs These days most of my limited field time is running a boat for marine science classes, and occasionally helping out grad students in the field on my own time just because I like getting out there.

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me.

There is a fair amount learned about physiology of animals in captivity that can't be readily accomplished in the field. Particularly when it comes to following a particular animal over a long timeline. While we can certainly tag wild animals with radio/satellite tags and acoustic transponders to trace movement, trying to recapture and draw blood samples, etc. is quite difficult. Though I do understand being bothered by the entertainment/business end of this.

Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

I don't know the story on the beluga's, but do know the story of the Whale Sharks, and have met the Vet in charge of them on several occasions...at least once over beer and BBQ in the backyard of former boss that we both worked had worked with.

The tank the Whale Sharks were in had a parasite outbreak (some kind of fluke or leach IIRC), the treatment of choice was Trichlorofon (used to sold as Clout to the aquarium trade). While well tolerated by bony fish, it proved problematic for the Whale Sharks I can also tell you the Vet at Georgia Aquarium is quite involved in Whale Shark research, including field studies that he has the Aquarium supporting.

To switch gears for a moment, and going back to the difference between just merely learning about something and seeing it in real life...

One of the classes I take out on our research vessel is "Intro to Marine Biology". It's a biology class aimed at non marine bio majors. In every class there are several students that have grown up going out on boats in Biscayne Bay with family and friends, and are clueless and absolutely amazed at the life I show them and they never really existed right at their feet. Occasionally one of them becomes a marine bio major as a result of that class, especially the labs that got them out in the field.

 

[mandarin_goby]

One of the classes I take out on our research vessel is "Intro to Marine Biology". It's a biology class aimed at non marine bio majors. In every class there are several students that have grown up going out on boats in Biscayne Bay with family and friends, and are clueless and absolutely amazed at the life I show them and they never really existed right at their feet. Occasionally one of them becomes a marine bio major as a result of that class, especially the labs that got them out in the field.

I would be all over a class that shows you critters in their natural habitat. I can definitely see how that would inspire someone.

Now, I was inspired to go into biology after reading The Hot Zone, about the Ebola outbreak in Reston, Va. I definitely don't need to see that nasty virus up close in order to respect it or want to learn more!

 

[Fishfirst]

Cancer/virus research has many guinea pigs associated with it... I guess I don't see the difference. An animal getting tortured for medical research is no better than an animal in captivity to inspire people to care about them. Moral high road would mean that your cancer research probably need to end... but I rather not see that happen.

 

[mandarin_goby]

Cancer/virus research has many guinea pigs associated with it... I guess I don't see the difference. An animal getting tortured for medical research is no better than an animal in captivity to inspire people to care about them. Moral high road would mean that your cancer research probably need to end... but I rather not see that happen.

As a scientist, I have very strong feelings about animals research, which I would rather not go into too much here - that belongs in a different forum. Let's just say that I do not partake in it personally, by choice. You can still do research using human cell culture and using human tissue samples (and I have) - not all research is based on animal models. That's all I have to say about that - that being said, it is a necessary evil. Again, it's very controversial. More attention is focused on monkeys and beagles are being set free from research facilities - again, more awareness. A sign of the times. And yes, again, ethics plays a huge role in animal research - there are whole committees dedicated to it. In science, you can use animals or not. There are alternatives.

We can't get away from animal testing - do you own a cat or a dog? Guess how their vaccines and flea/tick meds were tested.

Just saying something along the lines of: "oh those 2 HUGE whale sharks? Eh, just part of the learning curve" seems kind of flippant :/

 

[Fishfirst]

It is the nature of things and something that can't be avoided whether its a Mandarin dragonet or a Whale Shark. But I do believe that the more we learn about these animals the better and having whale sharks in captivity does give us a rare insight to their intelligence their life cycle and much much more. Writing the book so to speak is always difficult... I'm not completely against animal testing nor animals in captivity. I just think it is highly hypocritical when your field is much worse off as far as ethics are concerned than Sea World. What's done is done, advances come out of failure and success...

Also on the front of the whales doing tricks is wrong... this is utterly ridiculous... These behaviors are very important to their care. You think that sticking out their tongue doesn't have a purpose? It does.

 

[mandarin_goby]

People's *lives* have been saved thru animal-based/non animal-based research, through works done in "my field" and you think that is *worse* than holding animals in captivity that are known not to thrive for our *enjoyment*? And science is screwed up, moreso than SeaWorld's views? Did I really read that right? You have *no* idea what goes on in the science field, that much I do know. Thank *us* the next time you are successfully treated for something that ails you (your doctor didn't conduct the tests for efficacy, I assure you), the next time a loved one is cured of a nasty disease that would otherwise have run rampant, if not for research done by people in "my field."

How exactly does one research a whale shark/orca's intelligence as they cruise around listlessly on a pool? Sure, we can observe the life cycle of these animals as we artificially stimulate it. I mean, we are humans, we must play god in everything we do, because we can. I'm also willing to bet that whales don't seek humans out for fun in the wild, hence, making them do tricks and forcing human interaction seems more messed up than scientific research.

Some people claim to want to learn about animals so that means some animals must be contained so we can gawk at them on our terms, at our convenience??? What's next, do we need a blue whale in captivity so that we can understand them better, knowing full well there's no way it would thrive?

Yes, you're right. We must have animals in captivity, and yes, science is SO screwed up...I honestly just sit at a bench and twiddle my thumbs all day, really, because it's fun.

Did I really, seriously read that science is more twisted than SeaWorld? What is this world coming to, really? You are alive because of research...what has SeaWorld done for you? Take money from your pocket? Inspire you to better the lives of the animals kept there? Make you want to pursue marine biology as a career? No? Then it was just to see orcas swim in circles for your entertainment.

 

[Fishfirst]

I feel both are necessary, and they both have a purpose. You don't think that your precious little drug/research company doesn't work for profit? That they don't have an end goal of becoming rich beyond their wildest dreams? I definitely know what goes on in the scientific community as I am apart of it, both its good parts and its bad. And I DON'T MIND that they do turn a profit because THAT is how the world works.

 

[mandarin_goby]

Do you know that most academic institutions aren't for profit, research-wise? Maybe some research is actually done to benefit the human race? Sure, some researchers get grants, big ones. Do you think it is a researcher's dream in academia to make millions? Not in a million years. They then picked the wrong field to go into.

I could be making a lot more $$$ if I worked for big pharma, but I choose not to. I work for a university. Never, ever assume.

 

[Fishfirst]

Universities are for profit, just in a different way