what do u think of seaworld

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Zoodiver... It wasn't intentional. I have no idea when the photo was taken. But if you are suggesting there is a difference between jumping through a hoop or flying in the air to touch the ball hanging over head then I am the fool. If you cant see the point im trying to make, then we are indeed speaking a different language...

Look, I can play patty cake with you while i stand on this orcas nose... Thats ok, but dont you dare let the orca jump through that hoop!...

Since we are questioning each other... What natural behavior is being exhibited when an Orca is balancing a human on its nose at a Seaworld Park?
 
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Sea World does a lot of great things for animals. Sure they are for profit but that doesnt mean they dont care about the animals, in fact quite the opposite when you consider how much it costs to get a animal that large transported and homed. For profit does not mean its a big evil corporation, just means they are investor owned and they have to give back some of the profit to investors. Having dead orcas in the tank would be a bad thing for Sea World so they go a long ways in making sure those animals are well taken care of.

Imagine how many people that have seen those shows that learned a bit about the whales and marine life that ordinarily would have cared less otherwise. Why do you think blackfish had a impact at all? But if you support not having any caged animals then you better go put all our reef tanks back in the ocean since they are more happy there then in a protected enviroment. Seems odd to me anyone that owns a reef tank or fish tank would be for blackfish since that means all animals should go back to the wild including what you own.

Captivity is not perfect but it does help us to learn and understand, also most animals slowly adapt to that life style as well, thus why you dont want to dump them back into the wild. Imagine taking all those designer clownfish and dumping them back into the wild, how long do you think they would last.
 
If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?

I didn't say I wasn't a biologist, which I am. I said I am not a marine mammal biologist, big difference. And I did look at curves occurring naturally (someone else even provided links):

http://oceanadvocatefl.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/orca-dorsal-fin-controvery-experts-vs-seaworld/

http://swimmingfree.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/fin-collapse-in-killer-whales/

Only 1% of wild orcas show collapse naturally, while the percentage in captivity is much higher (30%+). I have been to Sea Worlds in Florida, Texas and California, and all orcas that I saw had fins collapsed. I have also seen orcas in the wild with the same frequency in Baja California and British Columbia, and saw none with their fins collapsed.

You also didn't answer my question. You said it has been proven that they thrive in captivity. Where was it proven and by whom?
 
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Zoodiver... It wasn't intentional. I have no idea when the photo was taken. But if you are suggesting there is a difference between jumping through a hoop or flying in the air to touch the ball hanging over head then I am the fool. If you cant see the point im trying to make, then we are indeed speaking a different language...

Look, I can play patty cake with you while i stand on this orcas nose... Thats ok, but dont you dare let the orca jump through that hoop!...

Since we are questioning each other... What natural behavior is being exhibited when an Orca is balancing a human on its nose at a Seaworld Park?

Here, I will rephrase:

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?

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I have never understood the whole people/kids can see the, in person and appreciate/learn about them.

With the day and age we live in there is information everywhere on these creatures and their intelligence, and where they come from. When I was little I read tons of books on animals that had gone extinct before I was born. It made me realize the impact we as humans have on this world.

I have never seen a killer whale in person but I still think they are amazing animals that should be protected.

I completely agree, and going one step further, having lions and tigers in large enclosures approximating their natural habitats in zoos is one thing (and I mostly agree with that), but having them doing tricks in a circus is another (which I completely disagree with).

So, if Sea World had them in much larger enclosures that approximated their natural habitat, and didn't have them perform "shows", I would probably be in favor of keeping a few for educational purposes, but as it is, I really don't agree with them being held in captivity.

Case in point: Georgia Aquarium. I think it is fine for them to have those whale sharks there (although I wish the tank was bigger, or fewer of them were there).
 
People train animals all the time. If you have a dog aren't you going to train it to not crap in your house. Maybe teach it to walk next to you or to fetch. Dogs are also trained to sniff out drugs and explosives and to take people down. Ranchers train their live stock and people around the world train mules and horses to transport people and goods. People train their fish to eat foods which they are normally not accustomed to. People train their kids to not run in the street,r ide a bike without training wheels and stand for the pledge. People train to run marathons, bench press 400 pounds and jump out of airplanes.
We are trained to look both ways before crossing, stop at a red ight and to obey la.

Even in the wild animals train their offsprings. I don't really understand how training animals is so harmful. Yes whales are social and intellent animals. So are dogs and they make a pretty good match for man. How many people provide their dog with a natrual habitat? Lets not forget dogs are pack animals.
 
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Here are some stories about individual whales of SeaWorld that I wrote. They spend less than 1% on conservation efforts and their orcas do not thrive in their conditions. My opinion is rather obvious and it is negative.

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This is Corky II's story. Corky's story will resonate with all mothers out there. She was captured out of A5 Pod in British Columbia, Canada in 1969. All the other orcas she was captured with are now dead. She spent 17 years at Marineland of the Pacific with another orca, Orky. She would be the first orca to give birth in captivity, something she repeated 6 more times. ALL of her calves died before they were 48 days old.

Her 'family' member Orky died after they were moved to SeaWorld San Diego and Corky was involved in the death of Kandu V, an orca we wrote about in an earlier story. Kandu V rammed Corky aggressively and burst an artery as a result. She bled out and died while Corky was ok.

Years of stress and loss plague Corky. She has adopted several young orcas in her time, among them Sumar and Splash who are now both also dead.

Corky is the longest-held captive orca in the world. She spends much of her days swimming circles in her tank, upside-down.

Corky like many others suffer in captivity. You can help stop this by calling for new legislation, spreading the word and not attending marine parks.

~Kimberly Miller
 
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This is Kandu V's story. Kandu V was captured in 1977 in Iceland and was kept at SeaWorld San Diego. She was known as a very dominant female and despite this was still used in waterworks with trainers and bred.

In January of 1986 she gave birth to her first calf, who was stillborn. Many orcas have problems breeding in captivity. In 1988 she gave birth to Orkid who lived. Being so dominant she was not happy when Corky II took interest in her calf. During a show Orkid and Corky II were performing when Kandu V swam into the main tank at high speed and rammed Corky with her mouth open.

Corky II was ok but Kandu V franctured her jaw and bled out and died in front of shocked spectators. Her daughter Orkid was by her side. This kind of attack and death has never been recorded in the wild before.

Kandu V suffered in captivity like many others. You can help stop this by not attending marine parks and by spreading the word.

~Kimberly Miller
 
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This is Kalina's story. Kalina was the first captive bred orca to live more than a few days, known as the orginal "Baby Shamu". She was daughter of wild-caught Katina and Winston and she was a hybrid of Iclandic and Pacific Southern Residant Orca, something that never would have occurred in the wild and therefor does not do anything for conservation.

She started at SeaWorld Orlando and would go on to be moved to Ohio, San Antonio, San Diego and back to Orlando, disrupting her "pod" life each time, something very traumatizing for an orca.

When she was only 7, a child in orca years in the wild, SeaWorld bred her and she gave birth to Keet in 1993. Very shortly after his birth she was taken away from Keet and moved to SeaWorld Orlando where she gave birth to Keto in 1995. An orca would never have calves so close together in the wild.

Kalina was noticeable for her very bent dorsal fin in a female, something that rarely happens to wild orcas. She would go on to have two more calves before dying at the young age of 25 in 2010 at SeaWorld due to Preacute Bacteremia Septicemia. She was the 4th orca in as many months to die at SeaWorld that year. With treatment she 'should' have lived, except she was likely treated with so many anti-biotics in her lifetime that she was partially immune.

Kalina suffered in captivty like so many others today. You can help stop this by spreading the word and not going to marine parks.

~Kimberly Miller
 
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This is Gudrun's story. Gudrun was caught close to the coast of Iceland on 25 October 1976. She spent time at Dolfinarium Harderwijk in the Netherlands until she moved to SeaWorld Orlando in 1987. She is the mother of Taima and Nyar, who both also died young.

Gudrun had perfect markings and an unusually straight dorsal fin for a captive whale so she was used often on the slide-out to let children and trainers sit on her, often while she was heavily pregnant.

Nyar was a sickly baby and often was visibly weak. She did not do well in captivity. During shows Gudrum appeared to try to drown her several times. Her daughter Taima would go on to do this to her own calves as it is speculated she learned the odd behavior from her mother as she watched. Nyar only lived to be 2 years.

Several months before Nyar's death in 1996 Gudrun went into labor again, SeaWorld had bred her before she would have bred again in the wild as it takes a lot out of a mother. She was in labor for 20 hours and was unable to deliver. SeaWorld used a metal hook to remove the dead calf and used a winch to pull it out. This caused internal bleeding inside Gudrun. She died 4 days later.

Gudrun and others like her suffer in captivity. You can help stop it by not attending marine parks and by spreading the word.

~Kimberly Miller

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This is Keto's story. Usually when people hear about an orca involved in the death of a human they think of Tilikum, star of Blackfish, but Keto is another that has killed.

Keto has lived a traumatic life, living at every SeaWorld (including Ohio which has since closed). Not only has he lived at those 4 locations but he now lives in Loro Parque in Spain. It is this constant stress of establishing new relationships in the already stressful life in captivity that may have led to his overly dominant and aggresive behavior. Orcas in the wild have never killed a person.

On Christmas Eve 2009 while still swimming with humans despite his known aggression he fatally drowned his trainer, Alexis Martinez, just two months before Tilikum would kill Dawn Brancheau.

It was the fact that Keto was still doing water-work with trainers despite his behavior that lead the authorities to discuss the desirability of these shows with such animals and warn of the lack of ability to fulfill the most important principle of preventive action, the avoidance of risks.

These deaths should serve as a reminder of the damage captivity does to the intelligent brain, and make us question the judgement of keeping these sentient animals for our own selfish entertainment.

(It is of note that Keto has now been put with orca Morgan, in what appears to be an attempt to breed them, despite his aggression and her young age. Humans never do seem to learn)

~Kimberly Miller
 
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And I will stop there, though have written more. I feel very passionate about this subject. If you see any errors, forgive me I am human, and open to corrections in a polite manner :)
 
Thanks Luiz... Its hard to see the world in black and white when we come from different backgrounds, cultures, education, and experiences. Im not sure what my dog would tell me if she could talk. You figure after 10s of thousands of years of domestication my damn dog could at least say something.

And thank you Kimberly...
 
If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?

Actually it only happens in a minuscule percentage. Ingrid Visser is suing SW over them skewing her research to make it seem like it happens more often.
 
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Let's step back a little guys. I don't care how you feel about it, discuss it like adults calmly.

I personally don't see it much different than having a tank. Yes, I'd go and I wouldn't feel bad about it. There you go.

Now behave.
 
Even in the wild animals train their offsprings.


I had a pair of macaws that lived in the sun room of my house-basically a all glass room in the center of the house. They had a nest box and would have babies every year or two. One time a baby fell out of the nest, and my wife went to try to get the baby to perch on a stick to get it back in the box. The adults both were saying "UP-Up" to the baby- knowing that the human language they had learned was more descriptive than their own.

Doing tricks that utilize the natural abilities of the whales is actually good for the whales in that it provides for the mental and physical stimulation. No one knows what the mental processes of the whale, so we do not know how much they enjoy the human contact. To them it may be a deluxe situation.

I am not going to comment casually on the multiple posts above-this is a person that cares deeply about her beliefs. I also would not question zoodiver for the same reason. I applaud both for their convictions. I will say though- I prefer using the situation as it is today- not looking to history such as practices in 1969.
 
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