what do u think of seaworld
- Thread starter thenewguy997
- Start date
- Status
Zoodiver
As seen on TV
I feel bad that there isn't a better way to allow you to see what really goes on.
Kimberly's "fact" that SW spends less than 1% on conservation is a flat out lie. (Google it, you can find out exactly what SW spends on rescue/rehab/conservation.) Corky is NOT the longest living orca under human care. That is a lie. (Google it, yes he's old, but not THE oldest.) The rest of the comments are mostly emotions wrapped around isolated 'facts' and passing off opinion of situations as fact. It is amazing writing, and really plays to the human emotion without going into the whole truth of any situation. I would love to know what ties there are to orcas and what first hand real world experience is that leads her to be someone who could be an author of such articles. To me, all of that falls right in line with BF and the way it was all slanted to make it look a specific way to please the producers (have an opinion, then look only for things that support that and ignore the rest).
Try this read about Blackfish and why you ALWAYS need to question the source of info:
http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c9...ist-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf
If you really only stand on what happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I strongly urge you to get up to speed on what really happens at these parks TODAY: August 2014. I would not be part of this industry if those things were happening today. There are MANY factors at play that most aren't aware off, please take the time to learn the full story before taking a stand for something you might not fully understand.
------------------------------------------------
Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.
Kimberly's "fact" that SW spends less than 1% on conservation is a flat out lie. (Google it, you can find out exactly what SW spends on rescue/rehab/conservation.) Corky is NOT the longest living orca under human care. That is a lie. (Google it, yes he's old, but not THE oldest.) The rest of the comments are mostly emotions wrapped around isolated 'facts' and passing off opinion of situations as fact. It is amazing writing, and really plays to the human emotion without going into the whole truth of any situation. I would love to know what ties there are to orcas and what first hand real world experience is that leads her to be someone who could be an author of such articles. To me, all of that falls right in line with BF and the way it was all slanted to make it look a specific way to please the producers (have an opinion, then look only for things that support that and ignore the rest).
Try this read about Blackfish and why you ALWAYS need to question the source of info:
http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c9...ist-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf
If you really only stand on what happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I strongly urge you to get up to speed on what really happens at these parks TODAY: August 2014. I would not be part of this industry if those things were happening today. There are MANY factors at play that most aren't aware off, please take the time to learn the full story before taking a stand for something you might not fully understand.
------------------------------------------------
Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.
I linked those posts. Also if you only listened to the beginning you'd hear the %s of the finns flipped over. If you listen all the way through, the interviewer keeps trying to ask or suggests that it could be lack of being healthy. The older lady or researcher being interviewer suggest what most likely the reasons as being conditions due to swimming in the same patterns, being out of the water, or previous injurys from a long time ago. Not that they are depressed, sad, or in any other current unhealthy stress.
And Zoo you're awesome and ty for that PDF.
Last edited:
Alexraptor
New member
I'm going to have to say that reading about them and watching videos about them does not even remotely compare to seeing them in the flesh with your own eyes.
As a child my parents took me to Vancouver Aquarium back in the early 90's.
Seeing those Orca's in the flesh is an experience I will cherish for the rest of my life.
When it comes to animals, or anything for that matter, seeing them, or touching them connects you in a way books and footage never can and gives you a deeper rooted appreciation for things.
ReeferKimberly
Marley & Me
Corky is a female, first. And what other orca are you talking about then? Lolita? Yes she is the oldest, by about a year. I did not say anywhere Corky was, I said she was the longest held captive. Please read closely.
No information is outdated. It is the past and present of the particular orcas. Because some were captured in the past it does not mean the current information about them is not, well, current.
It's kind of like, take a look at the orcas today, swimming upside in circles down or listless at the surface. It gets pretty simple. They do not live as long (the mean lifespan of a captive orca is around 9 years, FACT). They do not 'thrive'. Their calves do not do well. It is just simple to the caring individual. Like elephants, orcas just do not do very well in captivity. Based on facts.
Oh and just because you put quotes around the word "fact" doesn't make it any less of a fact. I see you are very passionate. That's fine. You do not have to bash me as an individual. This has been my passion for many years. I have been on speaking terms with leading experts. I am warranted to write what I write because I have done my own research for a long time, years and years before Blackfish was even an idea.
As far as their donating to conservation. The money they use when they state things like they "donate $50 million towards conservation in their lifetime" is from a non-profit that relies on federal and private funding, not their own profits.
As far as any emotion, those were just stories I wrote containing facts about their lives. I do have emotion. It is clear you do too. The facts are sad, I did not make them up. So any emotion is because they are sad facts. I did not write them for this forum, I just copy-pasted from my own folder. I did not intend to have an arguement with you or anyone and I have not been combative even when you take my words and twist them (like saying I lied about Corky, when I didn't. It was you who read incorrectly).
I also have zero interest in continuing discussion with those who would twist my words. I offer only what I know and to my knowledge have not lied. Like I said originally, I am human and open to polite correction. If that is not possible then no, of course I do not wish to continue.
Last edited:
[Quote}
Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.[/QUOTE]
And this is why the people with emotional arguments win and continue to mis inform. It is logical for a scientific minded person to realize that they cannot have a discussion with one who rationalizes, becomes emotional, or applies non logic-ie using human attributes to explain animal emotions. But it is incumbent upon those who do have actual hard facts not to allow the alternate realities of others to shout them down. Your opinion will likely not change- nor will hers-but its everyone elses that is important.
Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.[/QUOTE]
And this is why the people with emotional arguments win and continue to mis inform. It is logical for a scientific minded person to realize that they cannot have a discussion with one who rationalizes, becomes emotional, or applies non logic-ie using human attributes to explain animal emotions. But it is incumbent upon those who do have actual hard facts not to allow the alternate realities of others to shout them down. Your opinion will likely not change- nor will hers-but its everyone elses that is important.
The only facts there are- are statistics ie numbers involved, lifespans, illnesses, reproduction. After that it is to be decided if these numbers are being improved upon- and if care is getting better based on these numbers. After that it is pretty much opinion. And of course the whole question is really a personal one as originally asked- what do you think of seaworld. Whatever opinion one has is valid- and based on ones own beliefs. I personally just want to see all sides presented- and zoodiver has a perspective most cannot have. I am the type of person that does not value one person above another-nor do I value one animal before another. A cricket has no less significance than a orca just because we decide it is so. As Deb said- we keep fish, pretty much the same thing.
Agreed. At least for me. BTW, on the subject of opinion, I see swimming upside down be mentioned as if it implies a marine mammal is under distress. Ever think it might be a normal behavior that could be sometimes employed in feeding on prey close to or on the surface? I have in fact witnessed their smaller cousins the bottle nosed dolphin swimming upside in the wild here on the Atlantic coast. So I don't find the swimming upside down thing to be odd behavior.
ReeferKimberly
Marley & Me
Corky spends hours swimming upside down, rather than just normal bursts of a wild whale. Dr. Ingrid Visser (arguably the world's top orca expert) has this to say about another orca who displays similar behavior:
"Morgan was also observed to spend inordinate amounts of time upside-down. Although swimming upside down is a natural position for wild orca to occasionally exhibit, it is unclear why Morgan is positioning herself upside down so much. Orca do have binocular vision which is facilitated by the orientation of their head and it may be that Morgan is attempting to view items of interest to her (e.g., clouds). However, no matter the goal of this upside-down swimming, once again such a behaviour is (at the very least) beginning to manifest itself as stereotypical, if not already established as such."
I allude to it as being bad because it is not normal. She also lays on the bottom of her tank for long periods or lies listless at the surface. All abnormal behaviors. These stereotypical behaviors can be compared to those alarming ones of other captive animals in distress such as pacing and head swaying. Often the cause is boredom.
"Morgan was also observed to spend inordinate amounts of time upside-down. Although swimming upside down is a natural position for wild orca to occasionally exhibit, it is unclear why Morgan is positioning herself upside down so much. Orca do have binocular vision which is facilitated by the orientation of their head and it may be that Morgan is attempting to view items of interest to her (e.g., clouds). However, no matter the goal of this upside-down swimming, once again such a behaviour is (at the very least) beginning to manifest itself as stereotypical, if not already established as such."
I allude to it as being bad because it is not normal. She also lays on the bottom of her tank for long periods or lies listless at the surface. All abnormal behaviors. These stereotypical behaviors can be compared to those alarming ones of other captive animals in distress such as pacing and head swaying. Often the cause is boredom.
mandarin_goby
New member
You say "emotion," I say "compassion." Without it, we're not human. And yes, I say that as a scientist (cancer and virus research, if you must know).
Ethics is a large part of science, it's not all research and data. Yes, ethics is where things get fuzzy, but, for example, if a procedure isn't ethical, it can't be done. Sure, you can shoot anesthetized pigs to simulate war wounds so that different treatments can be researched, but is it right? No, that's why it isn't done any more. Keeping orcas in an artificial environment, forcing them to have interactions with humans and do tricks, forcing them to breed, forcing them to be gawked at by millions isn't very ethical. And yes, that's an argument that's been made by scientists. Putting people's selfish wants in front of an animal's needs isn't "right."
People's views are also simply changing because they are thinking differently, more compassionately. Look at the recent busts on dogfighting rings and closures of puppy mills - people care more now than they have in the past...I think social media has played a part. Also the increased attention on the Japanese whale hunts? Yeah, taking a machine gun to a whale in the name of "research?" That just isn't right.
The public is waking up, thankfully. An expanded orca exhibit is like putting lipstick on a pig. A comment on a post on a news site that stuck with me said "why bother putting them back in the wild or just leaving the orcas there? The ocean just isn't big enough!"
Ethics is a large part of science, it's not all research and data. Yes, ethics is where things get fuzzy, but, for example, if a procedure isn't ethical, it can't be done. Sure, you can shoot anesthetized pigs to simulate war wounds so that different treatments can be researched, but is it right? No, that's why it isn't done any more. Keeping orcas in an artificial environment, forcing them to have interactions with humans and do tricks, forcing them to breed, forcing them to be gawked at by millions isn't very ethical. And yes, that's an argument that's been made by scientists. Putting people's selfish wants in front of an animal's needs isn't "right."
People's views are also simply changing because they are thinking differently, more compassionately. Look at the recent busts on dogfighting rings and closures of puppy mills - people care more now than they have in the past...I think social media has played a part. Also the increased attention on the Japanese whale hunts? Yeah, taking a machine gun to a whale in the name of "research?" That just isn't right.
The public is waking up, thankfully. An expanded orca exhibit is like putting lipstick on a pig. A comment on a post on a news site that stuck with me said "why bother putting them back in the wild or just leaving the orcas there? The ocean just isn't big enough!"
Last edited:
I am going to disagree with your last two sentences and I have heard that statement probably hundreds of times.
Could it mean stress? Yes but you have to take into account the situation and be able to read other signs including the animal's body language and how the animal has acted throughout the day.
Some animals will display the pacing such as at the end of the day when it is time to enter their inside facilities or simply it is a habit and has little meaning. If the species is a social one then other members can learn that behavior, exhibit it, and pass it onto another.
As far as the above example yes it could be an issue but again different animals have different personalities and long-term observations would be needed to make the judgement call.
mandarin_goby
New member
Also....how many kids are inspired to be paleontologists because they saw a living, breathing dinosaur in captivity? 0% percent. You don't need to see an animal caged in order to fall in love with it.
Last edited:
By way of comparison, there are far and away more marine biology students than paleontology students
mandarin_goby
New member
Sure, I see what you are saying...
But I'm sure the giant squid researchers weren't so inspired because of the giant squid they saw doing silly pet tricks at the zoo
But I'm sure the giant squid researchers weren't so inspired because of the giant squid they saw doing silly pet tricks at the zoo
BlueFyre
New member
To each his own I guess. I saw a beluga whale at an aquarium and that was pretty cool. But seeing humpback whales in the wild was the experience of a life time. Whale watching is incredible.
As I mentioned before I hope to be able to take a trip and see orcas in the wild. I would much rather do that then go see some at sea world. Sure it's easier to go to sea world and see one on display but that just doesn't do it for me.
ReeferKimberly
Marley & Me
You are disagreeing that animals often display stereotypical behaviors due to boredom and lack of stimuli because some animals pace when they are excited over their routine? Sure some animals will pace before a meal etc. I am not talking about that. I am talking about animals who walk in circles all day long so much they wear paths in their enclosures or those who never stop swaying their heads longer than to take a drink or eat their food. Of course some animals display behaviors due to knowing their routine but you surely cannot deny that many other do so because of other reasons?
As far as long term observations, Corky has been observed doing this for years and it is not because she getting ready for something in her routine. It is day in and day out. I am talking about this, not an excited lion pacing because it thinks it's going to be fed soon.
As I wrote above, it is a possibility but does not always indicate a high level of stress. I am not going to use the term happy or sad because that is a gray area at best. The behaviors shown within the video you presented (and are presented to get a point across from the organization that made the video) could indicate that some of the animals are under a certain level of stress. I am not turning a blind eye and agree with you on that point.
The black bear at the circus and the polar bear exhibit for example I agree with you. Who mixes species btw? Having written that, it should be up to the institution holding those animals to address those situations and to provide positive stimuli for the animals. Positive reinforcement?
If you are talking about Corky the Asian elephant I would disagree that the animal being stressed. If you watch the rest of the elephant's body language then the animal is not showing a quick pace of snapping back and forth that could indicate an issue.
Without knowing where Corky lives and how the elephant is cared for it is difficult to draw a conclusion though.
Back in the late 80s and early 90s there was a huge push for elephants living in zoos to be "left alone" by staff and to let them be elephants vs doing tricks as some have stated in this thread. Some of the circus behaviors were removed which was a positive thing. Coupled with this, many zoos switched from free contact (having no protective barrier between the keeper and the animal) to protected contact (having one).
For the most part people thought it was a good thing however the animals' mental and physical health suffered because they were not being given something to do by their keepers. Eventually zoos pulled back to medium ground and realized that enrichment (for any species) is vital for long term health. The only problem was many keepers with the experience, knowledge, and dedication walked away from that career and the animals suffered.
Zoos have also realized that in certain health situations the animal would not respond to voice commands alone or food so what then?
Finally a few pages back it was shown one orca killing another. In a free contact setting it would be up to the staff to stop the fighting if they had the skill set and relationship with those animals to do so.
Unfortunately, this is way beyond what the original SW topic was but we could easily replace orcas with many other highly intelligent species and the concerns would be the same.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but regardless of which side of the fence you are on, I think most would agree that each one wants the animals to be well-cared for but each person's definition of that is different.
ReeferKimberly
Marley & Me
Agreed
(I meant Corky the orca who swims upside down, I am not familiar with Corky the elephant)
Tangents appreciated, these things should be talked about and I appreciate your thoughts.
- Status
Similar threads
