what do u think of seaworld

[gone fishin]

Zoo diver I really appreciate the insights that you have brought to this discussion as well as the many others that have posted. It has certainly caused me to ponder the questions posed in this thread more than I thought I would.

 

[shark2]

A lot. Check out the video below. Willy the most famous orca ever. Jesse is my hero. I just started crying when Willy jumped over him to freedom.

I do agree with you that it is an educational experience. I teach a class at the aquarium. The kids are 11-12 years old. When they come they have a great time. They learn more from the hands on and visual experience at the aquarium then they can every learn in a textbook or video. The experience they have now might lead them to further pursue an education or career in science. Since a lot of conservation effects depend on volunteers it is important to get people to want to help the environment.

Many of the aquariums and zoos by me are ran by the Wildlife Conservation Society which buys and manages land around the world for conservation and preservation. Lets not forget about the research and captive breeding which takes place their to. Reef Gen is a company that sells captive raised and breed fish. They run their operation out of the aquarium. It might not be feasible or economical for the average person or business to set up a program like that from scratch. They were able to do it with using the resources from the aquarium. If more aquariums did this it will greatly reduce the impact the hobby has on the environment.

Its for the children lol great line. That movie was the worst thing to happen to orcas. Even a whale as famous as Shamu has to live in a crappy enclosure.

 

[KafudaFish]

Shark2

I had a response to your question about my use of the term, punishment, instead of education to describe putting a human in a situation that he or she could not turn etc for a week but seeing that you used water boarding as a point to strengthen your position I don't think that there is any common ground on this.

When you asked about if anyone has eaten whale or what we should do with all of the whales that SW has killed pushed things from out in left field all the way into the parking lot.

Perhaps you should volunteer your time at a zoo or an aquatic park to see what it takes to care for animals on a larger scale.

Thank you for your service btw.

 

[shark2]

Shark2

I had a response to your question about my use of the term, punishment, instead of education to describe putting a human in a situation that he or she could not turn etc for a week but seeing that you used water boarding as a point to strengthen your position I don't think that there is any common ground on this. I am open minded and will like to hear your opinion.

When you asked about if anyone has eaten whale or what we should do with all of the whales that SW has killed pushed things from out in left field all the way into the parking lot. i guess i hit a home run

Perhaps you should volunteer your time at a zoo or an aquatic park to see what it takes to care for animals on a larger scale.i worked at the great adventure safari

Thank you for your service btw.thank you for paying my salary and providing me with a free college education. I worked with the military of many countries. No country treats its military as well as ours.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

I still see a lot of "I think" or "I feel" they need more space.
It's been proven they thrive how they are. Where is proof otherwise?

It's been proven that they thrive? By whom? I am not a marine mammal biologist, but I know just by looking at its dorsal fin that this whale:

Cannot be as healthy as this:

As others have already said, one can keep a yellow tang alive in a 5 gallon cube for years. Is that thriving?

 

[Ztrain]

http://swimmingfree.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/fin-collapse-in-killer-whales/

http://oceanadvocatefl.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/orca-dorsal-fin-controvery-experts-vs-seaworld/

 

[maoiwowie]

My understanding of our natural world is limited and my knowledge of Orcas even more. I only know what I read or see on TV with programs like "Blackfish" or when I was a kid at the Shamu show. I dont know the SeaWorld science or what their research programs conclude.

Im sure the ability to keep things alive or breed in captivity is a great measure of success if it were only about the science. But to me its not only about the science. I try not to place human feelings and experience on to animals but its difficult when I believe we share something with all living things; and that all living things can suffer. Watching the Orca in that swimming pool just makes me feel sad for him or her. And even when i see these creatures on TV, I can feel a common bond that my "pet trigger" and I could never have. Some people have a different definition of "thrive", but Orcas living their existence in an enormous swimming pool is not included in mine. If they are having Orca; jump through hoops with a trainer on its back; balance a fish on its nose before eating; waving Hi with a fin while sticking their tongue out... all in the name of research and learning... I hope we will find a better, perhaps more dignified way, to teach the world about these magnificent creatures.

 

[ReefPharmer]

I still see a lot of "I think" or "I feel" they need more space.
It's been proven they thrive how they are. Where is proof otherwise?

I read your responses to others and feel that you at least give them some thought but this one was just lazy. Your statement that "it's been proven that they thrive" doesn't hold any water without actual proof. While we are at it, please show some proof from majority expert opinion who are not on the payroll.
I work in pharmacy and see "proof" daily on how this drug is the best ever--expert opinion by company paid spokespeople. That type of information is misguided at least and even willfully misleading.
Please explain the proof you refer to as I would like to expand my knowledge in this area and feel your other responses were reasonably written

 

[Zoodiver]

It's been proven that they thrive? By whom? I am not a marine mammal biologist, but I know just by looking at its dorsal fin that this whale:

If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?

My understanding of our natural world is limited and my knowledge of Orcas even more. I only know what I read or see on TV with programs like "Blackfish" or when I was a kid at the Shamu show. I dont know the SeaWorld science or what their research programs conclude.

Im sure the ability to keep things alive or breed in captivity is a great measure of success if it were only about the science. But to me its not only about the science. I try not to place human feelings and experience on to animals but its difficult when I believe we share something with all living things; and that all living things can suffer. Watching the Orca in that swimming pool just makes me feel sad for him or her. And even when i see these creatures on TV, I can feel a common bond that my "pet trigger" and I could never have. Some people have a different definition of "thrive", but Orcas living their existence in an enormous swimming pool is not included in mine. If they are having Orca; jump through hoops with a trainer on its back; balance a fish on its nose before eating; waving Hi with a fin while sticking their tongue out... all in the name of research and learning... I hope we will find a better, perhaps more dignified way, to teach the world about these magnificent creatures.

This is a great example of what I'm hoping to change. The information people are basing their opinion on is bad info. Generally, people only look at what they are spoon fed by the media instead of taking initiative to look into it on their own.

Orcas aren't jumping through hoops, balancing a fish on it's nose or being neglected at all. What they do show during the performances are natural behaviors. No animal is ever forced to do anything it doesn't want to for these displays. No animal is ever NOT given food if they willingly choose to not participate.

I read your responses to others and feel that you at least give them some thought but this one was just lazy. Your statement that "it's been proven that they thrive" doesn't hold any water without actual proof. While we are at it, please show some proof from majority expert opinion who are not on the payroll.
I work in pharmacy and see "proof" daily on how this drug is the best ever--expert opinion by company paid spokespeople. That type of information is misguided at least and even willfully misleading.
Please explain the proof you refer to as I would like to expand my knowledge in this area and feel your other responses were reasonably written

Your are correct, in that being a short answer.
If you want proof, I can provide this page with actual work being done. I can also flood this page by picking apart the lies in Blackfish almost minute by minute.

Instead, what I'm hoping to do is show that there is far more going on that what the public is being told about by the activists - and hope to motivate people to get out on their own and look into it. I see so many people so quick to jump on a bandwagon without taking the time to look at the other side.

How many people have looked that the Sea World rescue and rehab programs and the number of animals saved each year? How many people have looked at the work being done to preserve orcas (and other marine mammals) in the wild (that is all funded by ticket sales). How many people know that back 40-50 years ago, Sea World saw what they were doing with wild orca collection was wrong, and stopped on their own?
Thanks to the fake documentaries, many people still think SW is out taking wild orcas. Many people still think they force animals to do 'tricks'. Many people think the animals are starved and mistreated if they don't 'perform'. None of this is true. CNN even published an article saying Blackfish was one sided, and mislead people by ignoring all of the positive things SW is doing that out weight anything negative.

 

[maoiwowie]

Thats where we completely diverge... No science can disprove basic empathy or humanity. Thats what makes us human. Again, im not a scientist and I dont believe it has anything to do with "initiative." If it were obvious that holding these Orcas are a good thing, then where are the documentaries that will sway my view to yours? We like to blame the Japanese for hunting whale as cruel, yet we cant see our own faults in the Orca circus. I know there is something inherently wrong with an Orca living his ENTIRE existence in a swimming pool. No researcher or book will change this fact for me. I guarantee you if it were you or if this animal could speak, it would say "Ill take my chances in the wild anyday!"

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... Puhlease! You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?

[/IMG]

 

[uwiik]

So you believe that the workers are punishing the animals by taking care of them to the best of their abilities and you are doing your animals a favor by keeping them in a shark resort?

Are you providing the best care possible for them?

I have nothing against sharks btw nor do I have any issue with a person keeping a shark if he or she has the resources available to do the job correctly.

I am just curious how you reached your decision about punishing the workers.

Maybe because he don't have a job hence the jealousy towards the Sea World's employees??

 

[shark2]

Maybe because he don't have a job hence the jealousy towards the Sea World's employees??

Is that a question or statement?

 

[ReefPharmer]

Your are correct, in that being a short answer.
If you want proof, I can provide this page with actual work being done. I can also flood this page by picking apart the lies in Blackfish almost minute by minute.

Instead, what I'm hoping to do is show that there is far more going on that what the public is being told about by the activists - and hope to motivate people to get out on their own and look into it. I see so many people so quick to jump on a bandwagon without taking the time to look at the other side.

How many people have looked that the Sea World rescue and rehab programs and the number of animals saved each year? How many people have looked at the work being done to preserve orcas (and other marine mammals) in the wild (that is all funded by ticket sales). How many people know that back 40-50 years ago, Sea World saw what they were doing with wild orca collection was wrong, and stopped on their own?
Thanks to the fake documentaries, many people still think SW is out taking wild orcas. Many people still think they force animals to do 'tricks'. Many people think the animals are starved and mistreated if they don't 'perform'. None of this is true. CNN even published an article saying Blackfish was one sided, and mislead people by ignoring all of the positive things SW is doing that out weight anything negative.

You have some points there but you fail to address my original question. How can you or anyone else say that an animal the size of a killer whale can thrive in an enclosure that's 4x it's length. Even elephants, lions and sloths which move so much less, get much bigger areas compared to body size . I realize that building a tank is much much more expensive but we are talking strictly about "thrive". Instead of that term, you may be able to say "a few suffer for the good of many".
SW isn't all bad, I am certainly not stating that. They do research and do rescue animals. I never watched "black water" or "cove" or other films to sway my opinion. However you cannot get me to agree that an animals that require almost constant moving, can "thrive" in an SW sized tanks anymore than a cheetah that is never let out of a 10/6 crate it's whole life and expected to thrive and exercise by spinning in circles... quickly .

 

[alton]

Zoo diver you might as well quit trying to prove your point, I appreciate all the information you brought here but some will never agree that keeping whales and fish in an aquarium is wrong. Which questions “why they are posting on a fish website” and please don’t tell me there is no comparison because a Yellow Tang swims in millions of gallons in the ocean and is then limited to their 200 gallon 2’ x 6’ tank. Yellow Tang 6” x 4 equals 24” of tank width which was the comparison for the whale tank. And since someone brought up the fact that animals in the zoo have more room than Killer Whales at SW I would have to dis-agree. I have seen the shows at SW and when the whales come out of the water they are moving at close to their top speed? Or at least it seems that way because they are hauling buns either way. Now take that Elephant or Cheetah that has a much larger pen than the killer whales, for me I have never seen an Elephant run at a Zoo, I don’t think a cheetah’s pen is large enough for him to get to 60MPH either. For me I like seeing the Snow Leopards here at the SA Zoo, they have been here longer than I have been alive but I am sure where they come from it never gets to 110 like here in SA. At least at SW they chill the water for the whales so it’s more like where they come from. For me I like my aquariums, Zoo's, and going to Sea World. Oh yea and my kids loved Free Willy which I bought for them on VHS.

 

[maoiwowie]

I do realize it may sound hypocritical but the main difference for me between an Orca and a Yellow Tang is that for the life of me, I havent been able to get the tang to jump out of the water and twirl for me. Ive tried but it wont learn. Perhaps im a bad teacher, or perhaps its not intelligent enough to understand what I want from him. My pet cockroach wont learn this trick either. Im sure the tang has no idea that it is living in Plato's cave. You think there is a big difference between a 3 foot tank and a 4 foot tank? I can admit that my relationship with my reef tank is one sided... for my enjoyment only... at its base level selfish? yes...

Im not trying to pile on you Zoodiver, but some things have no argument. Getting SW researchers and scientist to concede anything is like pulling teeth.

 

[krj-1168]

No one is disagreeing that the conditions couldn't and shouldn't be improved. But those calling for the banning of killer whales and dolphins in captivity - are forgetting the benefits of having such species in captivity. The real call should be to improve the conditions which these captivity whales and dolphins like in. For example - Sea World's plan to expand the Orca habitat (to more than 5 million gallons) - to be one which replicates the pacific Northwest is definitely a good improvement.

Having them in places like Sea World - helps with education the public to the plight of cetaceans. And there is much greater dangers and harm being done to cetaceans (including dolphins) annually. For example - more than 2,000 dolphins are being kill in Japanese waters every year. These dolphins aren't being captured for marine parks. They are actually killed by fishermen - as either food, or because they are seen as "pests".

 

[BlueFyre]

I have never understood the whole people/kids can see the, in person and appreciate/learn about them.

With the day and age we live in there is information everywhere on these creatures and their intelligence, and where they come from. When I was little I read tons of books on animals that had gone extinct before I was born. It made me realize the impact we as humans have on this world.

I have never seen a killer whale in person but I still think they are amazing animals that should be protected.

 

[alton]

I do realize it may sound hypocritical but the main difference for me between an Orca and a Yellow Tang is that for the life of me, I havent been able to get the tang to jump out of the water and twirl for me. Ive tried but it wont learn. Perhaps im a bad teacher, or perhaps its not intelligent enough to understand what I want from him. My pet cockroach wont learn this trick either. Im sure the tang has no idea that it is living in Plato's cave. You think there is a big difference between a 3 foot tank and a 4 foot tank? I can admit that my relationship with my reef tank is one sided... for my enjoyment only... at its base level selfish? yes...

Im not trying to pile on you Zoodiver, but some things have no argument. Getting SW researchers and scientist to concede anything is like pulling teeth.

You just don't spend enough time with them, my BSJF at work watches me for 10 to 11 hours a day while I work at my desk

 

[maoiwowie]

My tang already does that... Let me know when it jumps out of the water and does a triple flip for you... I know somebody that produces AGT

 

[Zoodiver]

Thats where we completely diverge... No science can disprove basic empathy or humanity. Thats what makes us human. Again, im not a scientist and I dont believe it has anything to do with "initiative." If it were obvious that holding these Orcas are a good thing, then where are the documentaries that will sway my view to yours? We like to blame the Japanese for hunting whale as cruel, yet we cant see our own faults in the Orca circus. I know there is something inherently wrong with an Orca living his ENTIRE existence in a swimming pool. No researcher or book will change this fact for me. I guarantee you if it were you or if this animal could speak, it would say "Ill take my chances in the wild anyday!"

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... Puhlease! You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?

[/IMG]

Not trying to be sarcastic at all, but I'm confused as to why you posted a very old picture (roughly '71 or '72) of an orca on display in Texas (Seven Seas Park) that was collected in the 1970 from BC to prove a point about current husbandry practices of Sea World. Could you explain how it's relevant? Or was this done for dramatic effect hoping people wouldn't realize it wasn't really Sea World, but would make that connection if the pic was posted?