Where can I find info on large scale coral farming?
- Thread starter Whaledriver
- Start date
Vest 0830.
www.aquaculture.co.jp
should do it for you. Click on the pics to see more,. If you have probs understanding, drop me a line and I'll try and help.
Is it true that the rainy season is over down in Okinawa? It is really humid and wet here in Tokyo, hoping the end is in sight.
Regards
Matt
www.aquaculture.co.jp
should do it for you. Click on the pics to see more,. If you have probs understanding, drop me a line and I'll try and help.
Is it true that the rainy season is over down in Okinawa? It is really humid and wet here in Tokyo, hoping the end is in sight.
Regards
Matt
I wanted to update, I found this place last night. There was a small article about it in the new marine aquariest magazine and they had a small ariel shot of the farm, so with that I went adventuring to find the place. No sign on the outside and a misleading sign on a gate later (because I cant read japanesse) I find the place. Talk about a 'farm' this place is for sure a farm. 3 full large scale greenhouses, and one what appeared to be a sales greenhouse, all plumed and full of corals (from what I could tell from looking in the place) it looks like quite a set-up. If I understand the website, they will also be building tanks for people.
Okinawa has a typhoon heading in for the weekend so I might not be able to go as planned, but if this thing keeps moving slower and slower, (and building in size), I'm hoping I can get up and go in the A.M. before the typhoon hits.
I will report back after I take a look at the place. Im going to take a few pictures hopefully as well.
Okinawa has a typhoon heading in for the weekend so I might not be able to go as planned, but if this thing keeps moving slower and slower, (and building in size), I'm hoping I can get up and go in the A.M. before the typhoon hits.
I will report back after I take a look at the place. Im going to take a few pictures hopefully as well.
anthworks
New member
I have always thought about starting a frag farming business in the Bahama's or some Caribbean island. Buy land on the cost, pump ocean water in the containers. Use natural sun light as much as possible. I guess is would be maricultured frags. Maybe work towards tanks raised reef fish. The only problem was getting the frags and fish back to the states.
BoxsterDude
New member
frag farming
frag farming
Hey's a concept,
Make friends with your LFS and grow a few corals for them.
They give you store credit for items you need and you give your city home grown corals get distributed to tanks everywhere. After all in ten years with all the isssue of the coral reefs the local guys will be the only ones in business since our goverment does't care what happens to our reefs. And importers are killing our oceans.
Just my two cents.
frag farming
Hey's a concept,
Make friends with your LFS and grow a few corals for them.
They give you store credit for items you need and you give your city home grown corals get distributed to tanks everywhere. After all in ten years with all the isssue of the coral reefs the local guys will be the only ones in business since our goverment does't care what happens to our reefs. And importers are killing our oceans.
Just my two cents.
Very interesting Fate!
*checking it out after I hit submit*
I went over to the farm last night. Awsome set-up. Inside the green house, they have long concrete tanks set-up, 3 rows. One down the center, and one down each side of the green house. -A huge skimmer on each tank. Water movement come from 3 pumps and one large pipe that ran down the middle of each tank at the bottom with holes (essencially a spray bar spraying up to create surface water movement) Seemed to be working pretty well.
They had many SPS corals growing, and were using coral suspension. They had a few soft corals that they said they were about to "culture" and they also had ALOT of clams that they were messing around with. Clams the size of pennies and as large as bricks. (huge) Few LPS, but they had a large hammer that they were about to frag. (ive seen one larger in the ocean though. :lol: )
As for lighting, they were using 100% natural sunlight. that was the only lighting they had in the place (except for a few garage lights for evening time).
THing that got me, it gets SUPER HOT here in Okinawa. Inside the green house there were no A/C units. In fact, before we went in he warned us that it was hot! Boy was it! They seem to not have any problems with water temps, but I didnt ask them.
The manager wasn't there, but they do offer an internship program. Im going to do my best to get in on it. I am in the Marine Corps so it will probably be a weekend job, but hey, thats alright. I know I will only gain knowledge from it, so thats all the more reason for me to do it!
No pics. Maybe another time.
*checking it out after I hit submit*
I went over to the farm last night. Awsome set-up. Inside the green house, they have long concrete tanks set-up, 3 rows. One down the center, and one down each side of the green house. -A huge skimmer on each tank. Water movement come from 3 pumps and one large pipe that ran down the middle of each tank at the bottom with holes (essencially a spray bar spraying up to create surface water movement) Seemed to be working pretty well.
They had many SPS corals growing, and were using coral suspension. They had a few soft corals that they said they were about to "culture" and they also had ALOT of clams that they were messing around with. Clams the size of pennies and as large as bricks. (huge) Few LPS, but they had a large hammer that they were about to frag. (ive seen one larger in the ocean though. :lol: )
As for lighting, they were using 100% natural sunlight. that was the only lighting they had in the place (except for a few garage lights for evening time).
THing that got me, it gets SUPER HOT here in Okinawa. Inside the green house there were no A/C units. In fact, before we went in he warned us that it was hot! Boy was it! They seem to not have any problems with water temps, but I didnt ask them.
The manager wasn't there, but they do offer an internship program. Im going to do my best to get in on it. I am in the Marine Corps so it will probably be a weekend job, but hey, thats alright. I know I will only gain knowledge from it, so thats all the more reason for me to do it!
No pics. Maybe another time.
Eric Boerner
Coral Cutter
Calfo was the pioneer in Aquaculturing. He made his $$ in the business. But the book and speaking engagements became his focus. Last time I spoke with him, he still had a vested interest in an aquafarm on the east coast. So he's not completely done farming from what I understand.
The reason its so cut throat, is that there are so few LFS' that are willing to purchase corals at prices that aquaculturing demand. Why bring in inventory that is $25 per specimen from an aquafarm, when you can get a wild specimen from Fiji that is only $10, and 3 times larger.
Three things need to happen in order for aquaculturing to become a vastly viable business model.
1. CITES needs to restrict ornamentals coming into the US.
2. Aquafarming costs need to narrow that gap with ***** shipped wild colonies.
3. Global warming needs to devistate more reefs. Ths changing the buyers awareness, and forcing LFS to carry more aquafarmed colonies.
If that was to happen, you would see far more pressure on LFS' to purchase aquafarmed over wild caught.
As of now, there is little demand for aquafarmed through wholesale means. Unless the farm is mass producing a designer colony (ORA) that everyone wants. Should the demand be increased, you would see fewer start ups going bust within the first year.
This also reminds me of something else...
The hobbyist fish industry is actually on a downswing. Surprisingly.... Salt is slowly catching up with fresh, but over all in the large grand scheme of things, the hobby overall is on a decline. So even if there were more demand for cultured corals, within a decade, there may not be that many hobbyists to cater too.
The reason its so cut throat, is that there are so few LFS' that are willing to purchase corals at prices that aquaculturing demand. Why bring in inventory that is $25 per specimen from an aquafarm, when you can get a wild specimen from Fiji that is only $10, and 3 times larger.
Three things need to happen in order for aquaculturing to become a vastly viable business model.
1. CITES needs to restrict ornamentals coming into the US.
2. Aquafarming costs need to narrow that gap with ***** shipped wild colonies.
3. Global warming needs to devistate more reefs. Ths changing the buyers awareness, and forcing LFS to carry more aquafarmed colonies.
If that was to happen, you would see far more pressure on LFS' to purchase aquafarmed over wild caught.
As of now, there is little demand for aquafarmed through wholesale means. Unless the farm is mass producing a designer colony (ORA) that everyone wants. Should the demand be increased, you would see fewer start ups going bust within the first year.
This also reminds me of something else...
The hobbyist fish industry is actually on a downswing. Surprisingly.... Salt is slowly catching up with fresh, but over all in the large grand scheme of things, the hobby overall is on a decline. So even if there were more demand for cultured corals, within a decade, there may not be that many hobbyists to cater too.
Steven Pro
New member
You might want to read about how well that worked out for C-Quest. Hint, hurricanes are a real killer. Not to mention, growing corals of Pacific origin in an open system from Caribbean waters is a big no-no.
Steven Pro
New member
Dick Perrin at Tropicorium was doing it for a number of years before Anthony was.
has to be a build issue. We are in Okinawa Japan a.k.a. typhoon alley. Just had one go through last weekend...gusts to around 120mph and that was weak. Some business' didnt even close. Typhoons come through all the time and it doesnt seem to be a problem here. I believe its a 100% construction issue in the states and elsewhere. IMO places like FL that gets devistated every year due to hurricanes could be greatly reduced after seeing the way places like Okinawa is built.
Treeman, I would love to know the same. It boggles me. Their tanks were probably 24-30" deep with the specimins close to the bottom. THey even had quite a bit of coral suspension going on. If I had to guess, it was probably 90-95 degrees in the greenhouse. For them to run a chiller on a tank of that scale, it would require lots of energy which in turn would be no profits (electricity is expensive on an island). I have no idea how they do it. I will look more into it when I go back down there. I will also pick their brains if I end up doing the internship...which will probably happen by the end of the summer.
Eric, I believe CITES will most likely be putting a restriction on the coral imporation issues sooner or later. -if Fiji has any culture background like the Japaneese do, the moving of livestock will be comming to and end or slowing rather. The japaneese believe their reefs save them from the typhoons, and create a break in the waves/oceans furthur out before the swells hit the beaches thus saving them from the water damage/tsunaumis. (if that made any sense). -yet another reason you probably dont have many corals shipped in from Japan/Okiawa. The reefs I have personally seen in the 3months I have been snorkeling every weekend, I believe there is more than enough coral to be fragged and/or sold. -thats from snorkeling alone...not even diving, and I haven't hit the more difficult spots. So to worry about coral farming in the long term...I believe it will get better for the farmers, personally.
Very Nice thread all,
Couple of thoughts:
1. Can anyone elaborate on why the industry is so cut-throat. I don't want to belabor the point in this thread as it makes more sense elsewhere, but since it was broken, just take a minute and think about it realistically and without any preconcieved notions, and try to come up with a good reason because I would like to know before I get into but I can't come up with one and the business people I've talked to (SCORE, SBA, Private Leaders) can't either. There is a never enough coral available in the stores or online (that I can find), restrictions are getting more and more stringent (Cites this year looks like it wants to start with moratoriums and limits), and store owners are becoming more aware of the benefits of AC stock (several large online stores now have entire sections of AC). Realistically this "cut-throat" vision of the business is hard to understand if you step away from the hoard mentality and think about it entreprenurealy (?word?).
This is not to say that anyone could do itor that large scale business would be easy, I have been fighting with commercial and government entities which will not supply me with credit or with permits to get what I need becuase this business doesn't really exist or doesn't fit into a category they understand. But does that mean it can't be done... hardly. I for one am hoping that 50-100 true "facilities" pop up within the next couple of years. My business plan and concept demands it and I think that the industry as a whole will benefit from it (except maybe those few businesses that that refuse to .
[Steps down from the soapbox]
2. Treeman, Rick, anyone
How are you all doing maintaining temps in the summer. I am working on verifying my numbers and I have run into a huge problem. I have seriously underestimated cooling from evap pads. I can't see how the evap pads are going to be able to keep up with days that reach 94+ especially if there is any humidity already in the air. But I have not seen any of you talk about using HVAC systems (Rick mentioned it as an option, Hamburglar was considering it) to cool.
The guy I have scaling my greenhouse pointed out a couple of things that I was wrong about(evap from the tanks keeping them cool, water walls), and now it seems that from mid Jun - mid Sept I will need some supplemental cooling. Have you guys seen this is in practice or could 600 gals in a tank keep its temp stable moreso than I can calculate.
Couple of thoughts:
1. Can anyone elaborate on why the industry is so cut-throat. I don't want to belabor the point in this thread as it makes more sense elsewhere, but since it was broken, just take a minute and think about it realistically and without any preconcieved notions, and try to come up with a good reason because I would like to know before I get into but I can't come up with one and the business people I've talked to (SCORE, SBA, Private Leaders) can't either. There is a never enough coral available in the stores or online (that I can find), restrictions are getting more and more stringent (Cites this year looks like it wants to start with moratoriums and limits), and store owners are becoming more aware of the benefits of AC stock (several large online stores now have entire sections of AC). Realistically this "cut-throat" vision of the business is hard to understand if you step away from the hoard mentality and think about it entreprenurealy (?word?).
This is not to say that anyone could do itor that large scale business would be easy, I have been fighting with commercial and government entities which will not supply me with credit or with permits to get what I need becuase this business doesn't really exist or doesn't fit into a category they understand. But does that mean it can't be done... hardly. I for one am hoping that 50-100 true "facilities" pop up within the next couple of years. My business plan and concept demands it and I think that the industry as a whole will benefit from it (except maybe those few businesses that that refuse to .
[Steps down from the soapbox]
2. Treeman, Rick, anyone
How are you all doing maintaining temps in the summer. I am working on verifying my numbers and I have run into a huge problem. I have seriously underestimated cooling from evap pads. I can't see how the evap pads are going to be able to keep up with days that reach 94+ especially if there is any humidity already in the air. But I have not seen any of you talk about using HVAC systems (Rick mentioned it as an option, Hamburglar was considering it) to cool.
The guy I have scaling my greenhouse pointed out a couple of things that I was wrong about(evap from the tanks keeping them cool, water walls), and now it seems that from mid Jun - mid Sept I will need some supplemental cooling. Have you guys seen this is in practice or could 600 gals in a tank keep its temp stable moreso than I can calculate.
Steven Pro
New member
1.) This business is just like any other out there. There is competition and there will always be competition. I don't think it is any more or less cut throat than anything else.
Part of why people have a hard time is they don't do a full business plan. Many are also too small (basement operations mostly) to be taken seriously by large suppliers. It is far easier for a wholesale operator to deal with a dozen collecting stations or exporters versus a hundred or more small hobby farms. Also, most of the hobby farms price themselves out of the market.
It is a shame that most ventures into this industry begin with coral farming. It is too bad more don't start at their LFS or some other aspect of the industry at large to get a better feel for the market as well as make valuable business contacts.
2.) This depends in large part on where you are in the country. Anthony's place in Pittsburgh worked as has Dick Perrin's Tropicorium which is near Detroit.
Part of why people have a hard time is they don't do a full business plan. Many are also too small (basement operations mostly) to be taken seriously by large suppliers. It is far easier for a wholesale operator to deal with a dozen collecting stations or exporters versus a hundred or more small hobby farms. Also, most of the hobby farms price themselves out of the market.
It is a shame that most ventures into this industry begin with coral farming. It is too bad more don't start at their LFS or some other aspect of the industry at large to get a better feel for the market as well as make valuable business contacts.
2.) This depends in large part on where you are in the country. Anthony's place in Pittsburgh worked as has Dick Perrin's Tropicorium which is near Detroit.
Eric Boerner
Coral Cutter
Ok, so theres 3 things to mull-over as to why its so cut throat.
1. Like any other business where competition is strong, you have to deal with people who feel that YOU are interfering in their ability to make a livelihood. So... consider this. There is the small fish, the guy who frags a dozen pieces out of his aquarium once a month that tries to get store credit, or trade at frag swaps. They pratically 'give away' their prunings.
Then theres the medium size fish that is actually trying to do a basement prop system (this is where I was at). The volume of frags averages around 50 a month. These people usually sell to a closed market within their local area or on the internet. Stores wont buy from them, since their costs have to be at the same if not more than what a LFS can get wild colonies for. Throw about a dozen of these into a very small community, and you'll see them tear at each other frequently like damsels in a 5 gallon tank.
Finally, you have the monster fishes, who have serious cash to throw at a ful blown production facilities. They can turn over enough frags in a month to sell to 200 LFS's at a cost they can make a margin at. They don't compete, because they have the market.
2. So those were the 'legitimate' aquaculturing people. Now throw into the mix what I like to call 'the scabs'.... People who hang out at the wholesalers and snag every sweet looking coral that gets trasn-shipped here, and then cuts it up into 20 'frags' and tries to pawn it off as their own aquacultured frags. They get 20 frags @ $2 each, and sell them off to locals and the internet for $20 a pop. Incredible profit with no real need to have a large facility. As long as the turnover is fast, they don't need to worry about space. I despise these types of people. Very dishonest. They tend to be the most spiteful and hateful group at frag swaps too. I saw a fair share of them when I lived in So Cal... Unfortunately.
3. The LFS's can be a major pain... LFS's can be the biggest pain in the arses in this business for many reasons....
Most LFS owners think they are the king's of the community. Most tend to have a god complex and feel that you should respect them for even talking with you. This makes trying to deal with them extremely difficult, especially when they employ a number of ways to inhibit you from selling you stock to either them, or their customers. For instance:
Alot of LFS's are now in the business of tank servicing. I have spoken with numerous LFS about supplying them regularly with highly desirable colonies. 3/4 of the LFS's will reply, "why should I buy frags from you, when I get them for free from my service customers?" So not only do they charge their service customers to come out to their tanks, but their contracts specifically state that any pruning that is done in the tank becomes property of the LFS....
Many LFS's are also getting into the habit of small scale fragging operations. Some will actually do broodstocks, but many will go the scab route too on highly colorful colonies they get in...
Wild verses Aqua.... This will remain the biggest problem for growers. It simply is just too cost effective for an LFS to get in a crate of corals from a wholesaler than it is to buy aquas from a farmer. The only exception is the LE frags that come from places like ORA. People want ORA frags, so LFS's are now forced to buy them... If the consumer (us) all demanded aqua frags instead of wild ones, the opinion of LFS would change. But... the consumer is still more concerned about getting big colonies, bright colors, at a cheap price. That just cannot be done with aquaculture...
All of the mass production facilities that seem to do really well are all in the northern hemisphere (with the exception of ORA). Its easier to heat water than it is to cool it down. Just make sure power is fairly cheap where you decide to set up shop for supplimental lighting.
If I were to do a start up largescale facility, I would look at being close to the sea, a cheap energy state, that doesn't overheat during the summer. That would land me in.... Seattle!
Yup, If I had $250k to throw out the window to try and set up a large scale facility, I would set up a warehouse near SeaTac, right on the waterfront. Scrub and sterilze the harbor water. Put in skylighting with 400 watt halides over 24+ raceways. Being close to SeaTac, I could have very fast ship outs. If I was a ruthless business person, rather than a conservationist, I would also *****-ship coral and live rock in from Fiji/Tonga/Solomans through Korean Air.
But thats just my take on it.
ctenophore
Premium Member
Regarding the temp control issues, I've gone through the same analysis you guys are currently doing. I decided on Aqualogic Titan heat pumps FWIW. Evap cooling is not consistent, and geothermal is too expensive and troublesome, at least in FL. Do a real cost/benefit analysis and you'll probably find the same thing. I also looked at water-source heat pumps, but decided that their cost premium in addition to the new well and permits required wouldn't give a real ROI for many years.
I have considered the nested tanks idea that has been mentioned in this forum before, but that will need some experimentation. I plan on prototyping something like this eventually. My fiberglass builder can make anything
Regarding the nature of the business, at least for facility design and implementation, my business partners and I have spent a lot of time doing a lot of math and engineering, and what I feel is some significant innovation. That gives us a competitive advantage that I can't just hand out to everyone that comes along. I'd love to share tips and tricks with others, but only if I can be sure to get something in return. As a startup business, my IP (intellectual property) is what makes me competitive with the big boys who have $$tons to throw at a new business.
I have thought about starting a private, invite-only mailing list or forum for those of us doing large scale facilities (large scale=1000+ sqft of water). I'm not sure if anyone who has a lot of money invested in their facility would even want to participate in it though for the reasons mentioned above.
There was talk of starting a co-op type organization for a group of FL coral growers, but I haven't heard anything about it for a while. It's a good idea, but each member needs to bring something valuable to the table.
So, as the title of this thread asks, "Where can I find info on large scale coral farming?" I think the answer is to either find some sort of information-sharing group, or be prepared to read a lot of books and do a lot of homework. There simply isn't a book on how to successfully build a large scale coral farm, and probably won't be for a long time. Calfo's book only scratches the surface, and some of it is already obsolete.
I have considered the nested tanks idea that has been mentioned in this forum before, but that will need some experimentation. I plan on prototyping something like this eventually. My fiberglass builder can make anything
Regarding the nature of the business, at least for facility design and implementation, my business partners and I have spent a lot of time doing a lot of math and engineering, and what I feel is some significant innovation. That gives us a competitive advantage that I can't just hand out to everyone that comes along. I'd love to share tips and tricks with others, but only if I can be sure to get something in return. As a startup business, my IP (intellectual property) is what makes me competitive with the big boys who have $$tons to throw at a new business.
I have thought about starting a private, invite-only mailing list or forum for those of us doing large scale facilities (large scale=1000+ sqft of water). I'm not sure if anyone who has a lot of money invested in their facility would even want to participate in it though for the reasons mentioned above.
There was talk of starting a co-op type organization for a group of FL coral growers, but I haven't heard anything about it for a while. It's a good idea, but each member needs to bring something valuable to the table.
So, as the title of this thread asks, "Where can I find info on large scale coral farming?" I think the answer is to either find some sort of information-sharing group, or be prepared to read a lot of books and do a lot of homework. There simply isn't a book on how to successfully build a large scale coral farm, and probably won't be for a long time. Calfo's book only scratches the surface, and some of it is already obsolete.
Treeman
New member
ctenophore,
I agree with you on this. Its amazing how many emails I get wanting to come over and "check" my systems out. I have to politely say no. And they mention, kinda after the fact that they would buy stuff from me too. Like that will make me let em in.
Give me a call when you can. The co-op idea is still there. It has just changed a little. I sent you my phone number if you got my email. I would love to discuss it with you and our ideas.
Matt
I agree with you on this. Its amazing how many emails I get wanting to come over and "check" my systems out. I have to politely say no. And they mention, kinda after the fact that they would buy stuff from me too. Like that will make me let em in.
Give me a call when you can. The co-op idea is still there. It has just changed a little. I sent you my phone number if you got my email. I would love to discuss it with you and our ideas.
Matt
I think I should have prefaced my thoughts in my first post, but Steven and ctenophore got it right on. Steven in his description of the current entities and ctenophore in his description of the intellectual property. Fortunately, I think both of these are the ideals that we can overcome and innovate past to make this doable from an industry perspective.
From the research I have done it seems to be that either people are scared of having to take on the more established importers, or are not willing to put the time, effort and capital investment into what a business of this nature would require. I partially agree with starting at the LFS level. The part about making contacts is absolutely vital if you want to be a large force in the market, just as it would be with any business. As far as starting at the LFS level that is just the easiest place to make these contacts. The problem is that for those that are working at the LFS level it would be far to big of a jump to get into "farming" as a direct business transfer, and there is no easy way to make the transition. I have witnessed stores try with extra tanks in the back of the store only to find they were spending more on equipment and other expenses than what they were selling the frags for. It almost seems like a catch 22 in principle especially if you don't come at it from a business perspective. The reason I think why most start with hobby farms is that it is the most direct way to have the hobby pay for itself. I don't think that most stay in it thinking they will make a living from it, but more to make the hobby pay for itself and have some "leftover money", if there is an intention of making serious money this is but an intermediate step.
Eric also made a couple very good points about the "medium fish" and LFS's. This is I think the start of my point above, I think this was also my misunderstanding of what I foresaw in the larger market. I was one of the medium fish for a couple of years as well, and even considered buying a store from someone who was moving out of the area. The problem was I had been working on a plan for a mid-sized farm and some developing concepts. I just couldn't justify the risk/reward (or ROI) potential of the store versus the farm, especially if I am correct in figuring that there is no upgrade path from the store. I think I was applying the concepts of the scabs with the monster fish, and assuming that the same practices existed in both. I agree that the scabs make for very difficult practices and would suggest that they have become even more widespread than the locals and frag swaps. The issue there is that they will never have the quality or consistency that most LFS or internet stores will want if given a realistic alternative.
The most disturbing was the part about the LFS's though. I have seen some of this locally and expected it to be more widespread but not to the extent that Eric speaks of, especially the servicing and scabbing. My only point would be that this doesn't seem to be putting much pressure on the importers so there must still be a market for external(to the LFS) product. Most LFS's that I have seen try indoor farming have realized it is not cost effective for them (I know of three first hand and several more from conversations) and all have since stopped except for those colonies that they can get more than $80 for.
I agree with the comments about the AC colonies and how that affects customer decisions (price, color, size), but I suggest that this is only because that is all the customer has ever known. For the vast majority of customers that have never visited RC(and some that have) the only thing they think about is how much does it cost and how will it look in my tank. Most don't even think about whether it can coexist in the system. This though is where the market is, Customer Education. I'll leave it at that for now but I believe that is the key to why farming has not been more viable. I don't think a farmer can compete with importers at their game, but change the rules and now the game changes as well.
Agreed on the stable water temp sourcing, it is absolutely vital to large scale facilities, but my hope is that a large enough well source can be just as good, given a decent cost on salt and supplements.
ctenophore, I lived in Orlando, Tampa, and Virginia Beach so I would agree with you that in many places, especially coastal areas, groundsourcing is not possible. I would also suggest in some cases (pre-existing well) that a water-source or geothermal heat pump would be an ideal way to lower the most significant issues(climate control stability and costs). In my research equipment ends up being 2.5x as expensive as a gas heater(with pre-existing well) but the cost savings, based on current LP prices, I will recoup in 18 months from heating alone. The bonus is that it can also provide close to adequate cooling in the summertime as well, and this would come for almost free.
On the intellectual and other business idea property issues, this may sound like it is coming from left field, but I offer it as a possible solution to the barriers discussed above, not as criticism of anything posted before.
Firstly; I too have ideas that I have come up with for how to make it as a business. I think that is the whole point of writing a business plan, to solidify, expand and define your ideas and means to run a business. But you seem to be focused on the hoarding of all this potential business. I know that no matter how large my business gets that I cannot supply enough coral to cover the demand even now, let alone once regulation starts to cut into what can be imported. Being a conservationist, but still a business man, I recognize that there will need to be more of "me" out there to make AC products viable both in meeting demand and producing quality. The more there are and the more quality product makes it into the marketplace the more viable AC product becomes as a whole. In turn the more the demand grows. This is what ORA is feeding on right now, as a for instance they have provided to the market a pre-adapted seahorse that even a moderate hobbyist can keep alive for much longer than a wild one. This is fueling the demand for more of the product. Imagine doing this for some of the more difficult to keep corals. Now imagine creating a whole ecosystem of this. No one business, however large, can provide this much product to the marketplace, nor would it be cost effective to try to supply it all from one geographical location.
In any supply industry the "large players", once they get over their egos and realize the market they have, always begin to work together for the greater good of the industry as a whole. It is usually only the retailers and the marketers that fight amongst themselves, and I give this with first hand knowledge having been a product manager in multiple industries. Electronics and small scale software would be the only caveats to that but I think that is because those indutries have no stability and have yet to shake themselves out enough.
Secondly; I for one am planning on putting the size of most people's retirements(mid 6 figures) into a facility, and am very interested in joining not only a mailing list, but much more and am not worried at all about others who are interested as well. Business acumen states that success in business is not so much what you know when you start it's how much you are willing to work and learn along the way. I am sure that Rick Rottet would agree with that. If I were to look for ideal members of a group to be in a group or coop the decision would be more their dedication to the business and their skillset than any proprietary ideas they may have alread come up with. Anthony was right when he put in his book that being able to run a business is just as important as being able to run a tank if you want to be in this industry. The coop idea is starting to get to the point but it seems that most that are serious about this shrug an idea like this off as silly or counter-productive. Ctenophore: what would you consider valuable enough to get a seat at the table? I ask this with serious intentions.
I will completely agree with the entire last paragraph of what ctenophore said. There is alot of homework involved in this, and if you are not willing to do that the basement/garage approach is the best place to put your efforts. I have been at it for about 18 months and have just decided I need another partial rewrite of my business plan, after having just ordered much of the equipment I need, because I want to expand an idea a bit more based on my latest SBA review.
I hope all take this commentary as simply that with the intent to create discussion. I am serious about this and hope to create serious discussion with others to make this viable in the near term.
From the research I have done it seems to be that either people are scared of having to take on the more established importers, or are not willing to put the time, effort and capital investment into what a business of this nature would require. I partially agree with starting at the LFS level. The part about making contacts is absolutely vital if you want to be a large force in the market, just as it would be with any business. As far as starting at the LFS level that is just the easiest place to make these contacts. The problem is that for those that are working at the LFS level it would be far to big of a jump to get into "farming" as a direct business transfer, and there is no easy way to make the transition. I have witnessed stores try with extra tanks in the back of the store only to find they were spending more on equipment and other expenses than what they were selling the frags for. It almost seems like a catch 22 in principle especially if you don't come at it from a business perspective. The reason I think why most start with hobby farms is that it is the most direct way to have the hobby pay for itself. I don't think that most stay in it thinking they will make a living from it, but more to make the hobby pay for itself and have some "leftover money", if there is an intention of making serious money this is but an intermediate step.
Eric also made a couple very good points about the "medium fish" and LFS's. This is I think the start of my point above, I think this was also my misunderstanding of what I foresaw in the larger market. I was one of the medium fish for a couple of years as well, and even considered buying a store from someone who was moving out of the area. The problem was I had been working on a plan for a mid-sized farm and some developing concepts. I just couldn't justify the risk/reward (or ROI) potential of the store versus the farm, especially if I am correct in figuring that there is no upgrade path from the store. I think I was applying the concepts of the scabs with the monster fish, and assuming that the same practices existed in both. I agree that the scabs make for very difficult practices and would suggest that they have become even more widespread than the locals and frag swaps. The issue there is that they will never have the quality or consistency that most LFS or internet stores will want if given a realistic alternative.
The most disturbing was the part about the LFS's though. I have seen some of this locally and expected it to be more widespread but not to the extent that Eric speaks of, especially the servicing and scabbing. My only point would be that this doesn't seem to be putting much pressure on the importers so there must still be a market for external(to the LFS) product. Most LFS's that I have seen try indoor farming have realized it is not cost effective for them (I know of three first hand and several more from conversations) and all have since stopped except for those colonies that they can get more than $80 for.
I agree with the comments about the AC colonies and how that affects customer decisions (price, color, size), but I suggest that this is only because that is all the customer has ever known. For the vast majority of customers that have never visited RC(and some that have) the only thing they think about is how much does it cost and how will it look in my tank. Most don't even think about whether it can coexist in the system. This though is where the market is, Customer Education. I'll leave it at that for now but I believe that is the key to why farming has not been more viable. I don't think a farmer can compete with importers at their game, but change the rules and now the game changes as well.
Agreed on the stable water temp sourcing, it is absolutely vital to large scale facilities, but my hope is that a large enough well source can be just as good, given a decent cost on salt and supplements.
ctenophore, I lived in Orlando, Tampa, and Virginia Beach so I would agree with you that in many places, especially coastal areas, groundsourcing is not possible. I would also suggest in some cases (pre-existing well) that a water-source or geothermal heat pump would be an ideal way to lower the most significant issues(climate control stability and costs). In my research equipment ends up being 2.5x as expensive as a gas heater(with pre-existing well) but the cost savings, based on current LP prices, I will recoup in 18 months from heating alone. The bonus is that it can also provide close to adequate cooling in the summertime as well, and this would come for almost free.
On the intellectual and other business idea property issues, this may sound like it is coming from left field, but I offer it as a possible solution to the barriers discussed above, not as criticism of anything posted before.
Firstly; I too have ideas that I have come up with for how to make it as a business. I think that is the whole point of writing a business plan, to solidify, expand and define your ideas and means to run a business. But you seem to be focused on the hoarding of all this potential business. I know that no matter how large my business gets that I cannot supply enough coral to cover the demand even now, let alone once regulation starts to cut into what can be imported. Being a conservationist, but still a business man, I recognize that there will need to be more of "me" out there to make AC products viable both in meeting demand and producing quality. The more there are and the more quality product makes it into the marketplace the more viable AC product becomes as a whole. In turn the more the demand grows. This is what ORA is feeding on right now, as a for instance they have provided to the market a pre-adapted seahorse that even a moderate hobbyist can keep alive for much longer than a wild one. This is fueling the demand for more of the product. Imagine doing this for some of the more difficult to keep corals. Now imagine creating a whole ecosystem of this. No one business, however large, can provide this much product to the marketplace, nor would it be cost effective to try to supply it all from one geographical location.
In any supply industry the "large players", once they get over their egos and realize the market they have, always begin to work together for the greater good of the industry as a whole. It is usually only the retailers and the marketers that fight amongst themselves, and I give this with first hand knowledge having been a product manager in multiple industries. Electronics and small scale software would be the only caveats to that but I think that is because those indutries have no stability and have yet to shake themselves out enough.
Secondly; I for one am planning on putting the size of most people's retirements(mid 6 figures) into a facility, and am very interested in joining not only a mailing list, but much more and am not worried at all about others who are interested as well. Business acumen states that success in business is not so much what you know when you start it's how much you are willing to work and learn along the way. I am sure that Rick Rottet would agree with that. If I were to look for ideal members of a group to be in a group or coop the decision would be more their dedication to the business and their skillset than any proprietary ideas they may have alread come up with. Anthony was right when he put in his book that being able to run a business is just as important as being able to run a tank if you want to be in this industry. The coop idea is starting to get to the point but it seems that most that are serious about this shrug an idea like this off as silly or counter-productive. Ctenophore: what would you consider valuable enough to get a seat at the table? I ask this with serious intentions.
I will completely agree with the entire last paragraph of what ctenophore said. There is alot of homework involved in this, and if you are not willing to do that the basement/garage approach is the best place to put your efforts. I have been at it for about 18 months and have just decided I need another partial rewrite of my business plan, after having just ordered much of the equipment I need, because I want to expand an idea a bit more based on my latest SBA review.
I hope all take this commentary as simply that with the intent to create discussion. I am serious about this and hope to create serious discussion with others to make this viable in the near term.
