47G SPS...Revamp
- Thread starter sahin
- Start date
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
Meh, my tank pales in comparison to yours. You need to get a build thread going here. And learn some decent photography so you can show those colourful SPS. - Quit with the time spent on FB and be snapping some practice shots. :debi: :lol2:
GSMclowns
A Reef Enthusiast
Hi Sahin,
I see that you and many other reefers recommend not to run too much GFO to strip water out of too much phosphate. I don't know too much about chemistry so this really confused me. If you don't use GFO to export Phosphate, then where does all the Phosphate go? Our system is a closed system. What goes in must be consumed or export out. So if you don't use GFO, then Phosphate got consumed by corals, algae, bacteria? or got bind into the rock and will be release later day when they are full? I can understand that the rate of consumption of Nitrate is much more than Phosphate like 16 to 1 or something (just a general number), so we don't worry much about Nitrate. But Phosphate is different, not a lot of organism consume them, Algae doesn't take a lot of it. So with all the people that recommend not running GFO, then how do you control phosphate? Changing water, vacuuming the sand bed help but it is nothing compare to a cup of GFO when it comes to exporting Phosphate.
Thanks,
I see that you and many other reefers recommend not to run too much GFO to strip water out of too much phosphate. I don't know too much about chemistry so this really confused me. If you don't use GFO to export Phosphate, then where does all the Phosphate go? Our system is a closed system. What goes in must be consumed or export out. So if you don't use GFO, then Phosphate got consumed by corals, algae, bacteria? or got bind into the rock and will be release later day when they are full? I can understand that the rate of consumption of Nitrate is much more than Phosphate like 16 to 1 or something (just a general number), so we don't worry much about Nitrate. But Phosphate is different, not a lot of organism consume them, Algae doesn't take a lot of it. So with all the people that recommend not running GFO, then how do you control phosphate? Changing water, vacuuming the sand bed help but it is nothing compare to a cup of GFO when it comes to exporting Phosphate.
Thanks,
Rickyrooz1
Acropora Nut
What do you do to keep your phosphates so low?
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
Good subject. The answer I have for you is just my experience. And the experience of other SPS keepers with great tanks/nicely coloured acros.
I present a couple of threads:
First thread is an example of a basic system; no GFO usage. Ed's PO4 level used to be something crazy like 0.25ppm (or higher, checkout the thread). But his coral colours are pretty damn good. His PO4 level is still probably higher than what is in most tanks.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142
This thread contains some VERY beautiful tanks; with great colours in the SPS and NO GFO usage (some tanks even have high PO4 levels).
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2289842&highlight=gfo+free
Note member Rbtm's setup and the PO4 level (0.18ppm). That is Adam at BattleCorals. His SPS corals as you may know are VERY nicely coloured. This guy sells SPS for a living. Its in his best interest to use GFO if he thought it would be good for his corals which means more coral sales. But he doesnt. Because he doesnt need to. He has long worked out that GFO has been heavily hyped by the manufacturers.
There are MANY other build threads you can find on this forum; they have great SPS colours and dont run GFO. Of course there are tanks with just as nice colours that use GFO as well. But I believe GFO is not a constant requirement. And the ones that do use GFO, most likely feed the tank well etc.
I have seen with my own eyes, my buddys tank before he took it down due to a house move and lack of funds at the time: it was a basic system with a refugium and DIY LED/T5. His PO4 level when I first saw his tank was around 0.08ppm (measured with my Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter (when I had good reagents), and measured with his high end Merck Phosphate test kit). Even at 0.08ppm, he had great colours.
However, when I saw his tank some months later; his PO4 had risen to 0.25ppm...the colours in his SSC was AMAZING! The colours in his SPS were the deepest and best I've ever seen. In any tank. Now, I am not saying that the high phosphate was responsible for the amazing colours.
What I am trying to convey to you is that the high PO4 level didnt make his acros turn brown. In the presence of what most consider very high phosphate level, his SPS colours were great!
Since Phosphate removers became mainstream, there have been SO many threads about pale colours/lack of colours/other issues. Go through the SPS forum and see for yourself.
The combined effect of PO4 removers/GAC/highly efficient skimmers and other forms of filtration are so efficient these days that IMO we easily tend to cross the line and have a tank devoid of nutrients and other useful substances/materials that our corals require.
GFO removes way more things out the water than just Phosphate:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/ We dont really know to what extent the GFO binds other compounds/elements. Nor are we really sure of what the effect of GFO having removed these compounds has on our corals. Pale corals? Lack of colours? :uhoh3: Light brown coloured SPS?
GFO is a tool. It shouldn't need to be used permanently or in very high amounts. I used it at the start to reduce the PO4 level in my tank in an effort to control algae growth. Now that the level is controlled by my filtration system, I dont need to use it. Should my PO4 level start to get closer to 0.1ppm I will chuck some GFO in.
Where is it going in my tank? I can only guess that the amount of PO4 going in is being taken out by water changes/skimming/bacteria using it up and being skimmed out/being bound up into coral tissue/being bound to the substrate/being taken up by the algae in my refugium. I was also dosing Prodibio, but stopped both the GFO and Prodibio when I noticed my glass wouldnt need cleaning for nearly 2 weeks...I knew I had hit very low nutrient levels and my corals didnt look their best at this point.
Anyway, if lots of PO4 is being bound up in the substrate, then at a certain point, the substrate will reach a point where it cannot bind any more. At this point the levels of PO4 in the tank will surely rise. At that point some GFO can be used to reduce the levels.
Or I can replace part or section of the sandbed. I only have minimal sand in my tank. Its only 1inch high; so not at all difficult.
I currently have the following fish:
1x Tomoni Tang
1x Regal Tang (he is not suitable for my tank I know...but he is quite small and I intend to upgrade next year, if I dont, I will send him to my buddy with a 250G tank).
1x Fairy Wrasse
1x Yellow Wrasse (dont know its name).
In the next few months I will add a few smaller fish.
I threw my Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter in the cupboard. I no longer feel the need to try and achieve ultra low levels. I look at my corals and tank; they tell me whats happening with nutrient levels.
The colours in the SPS will come from feeding the tank well, keeping parameters stable and carrying out regular water changes (which removes harmful components and maintain trace elements), good flow and good light.
I used GFO/GAC/Prodibio in the first 4-5 months to control phosphate.
Tank manages PO4 and NO3 at these levels:
PO4=0.02ppm
NO3=0.2ppm
I dosed Nitrates many weeks back to raise nitrates to 5ppm. I didnt see any improvement in colours. The system bounced back to its 0.02/0.2 levels soon after.
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plyle02
Active member
Sahin,
Well said, I could not agree more, haven't run gfo in some time, just using coral color and algae on the glass as a guide. I measured yesterday on pocket meter, just for heck of it, 0.00... NO3 2ppm. Until PO4 became a big deal, in terms of testing, I never really cared...lol... I wonder how many people, myself included, have lost to rtn, many sps corals, due to rapid PO4 depletion? The only reason it is a concern, is because there is money in the concern
Well said, I could not agree more, haven't run gfo in some time, just using coral color and algae on the glass as a guide. I measured yesterday on pocket meter, just for heck of it, 0.00... NO3 2ppm. Until PO4 became a big deal, in terms of testing, I never really cared...lol... I wonder how many people, myself included, have lost to rtn, many sps corals, due to rapid PO4 depletion? The only reason it is a concern, is because there is money in the concern
markalot
...
I wish I could believe it, but not yet. When my nitrates were higher (15), too high really, PO4 levels didn't seem to matter, but as I lowered Nitrate to try and improve colors things started to look good, and then went south. I tested and phosphates were up to a little higher than .1 and things were suffering.
I put GFO online and got them down and the problems stopped. Birdsnest was losing tissue, it stopped and now has new growth tips. A blue acro browned, started to recede at the base, and is now showing a new growth edge.
I believe there is something about the ratio of NO3 to PO4 that require some tanks, like mine, to use GFO to prevent a PO4 crises. Perhaps it's leaching from my older rocks, I just don't know.
I put GFO online and got them down and the problems stopped. Birdsnest was losing tissue, it stopped and now has new growth tips. A blue acro browned, started to recede at the base, and is now showing a new growth edge.
I believe there is something about the ratio of NO3 to PO4 that require some tanks, like mine, to use GFO to prevent a PO4 crises. Perhaps it's leaching from my older rocks, I just don't know.
GSMclowns
A Reef Enthusiast
Hi Sahin,
Thanks a lot for taking the time and effort to answer my question in such details. Lacking color is the number one issue that I have been struggling with. However, I always have algae issue as well. If I don't run GFO, then my algae just take over the tank. I guess the Phosphate must had bonded to my rock and now releasing it back. I will continue to run GFO to get rid of the algae problem and then stop gfo to try and improve the color.
Thanks a lot for taking the time and effort to answer my question in such details. Lacking color is the number one issue that I have been struggling with. However, I always have algae issue as well. If I don't run GFO, then my algae just take over the tank. I guess the Phosphate must had bonded to my rock and now releasing it back. I will continue to run GFO to get rid of the algae problem and then stop gfo to try and improve the color.
reefmutt
Active member
Sahin, your extremely detailed and helpful photo explanation as well as your excellent response to gsmclowns on gfo demonstrate, once again, how much of an asset you are to this community!
Thank you!
And your very encouraging words to me were very much appreciated!!
When I read what you said it was like a positive smack in the face.. I think there's a scene in the second Aliens movie where Bill Paxton, playing one of the soldiers, starts to have a whiny breakdown about how they are all going to die. Sigourney Weaver, or maybe the tough female soldier turns around and smacks him across the face and says something along the lines of 'get your sh*t together!!!'
And of course Andrew (being an Aussie) can't keep anything to himself, had to pipe up as well!!
Thanks, Sahin!! Very good of you..
I am currently doing most of what you suggested for shooting.. My 70d allows me to set the k up to 10000. Photos still come out a bit blue, however.. At the moment, I take the photos right off the camera and post them.. I will have to consider Lightroom or another software to tweak them a bit more.
If I ever get to the UK, I will be buying you a beer or two!
I have some GHL Mitras for sale... I'm going full my/t5 with some small blue led supplementation.
The question now is if I should add a third double ended 150 mh or go with two 250 mh... Hm..
Thank you!
And your very encouraging words to me were very much appreciated!!
When I read what you said it was like a positive smack in the face.. I think there's a scene in the second Aliens movie where Bill Paxton, playing one of the soldiers, starts to have a whiny breakdown about how they are all going to die. Sigourney Weaver, or maybe the tough female soldier turns around and smacks him across the face and says something along the lines of 'get your sh*t together!!!'
And of course Andrew (being an Aussie) can't keep anything to himself, had to pipe up as well!!
Thanks, Sahin!! Very good of you..
I am currently doing most of what you suggested for shooting.. My 70d allows me to set the k up to 10000. Photos still come out a bit blue, however.. At the moment, I take the photos right off the camera and post them.. I will have to consider Lightroom or another software to tweak them a bit more.
If I ever get to the UK, I will be buying you a beer or two!
I have some GHL Mitras for sale... I'm going full my/t5 with some small blue led supplementation.
The question now is if I should add a third double ended 150 mh or go with two 250 mh... Hm..
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
No problem.
Just remember that to kill off some types of algae, you will kill your SPS/Acros before you do any real damage to those algae. Some algae persist in very low nutrient conditions. I would try a combo of manual removal as well as really beefing up the CUC.
Sahin, your extremely detailed and helpful photo explanation as well as your excellent response to gsmclowns on gfo demonstrate, once again, how much of an asset you are to this community!
Thank you!
And your very encouraging words to me were very much appreciated!!
When I read what you said it was like a positive smack in the face.. I think there's a scene in the second Aliens movie where Bill Paxton, playing one of the soldiers, starts to have a whiny breakdown about how they are all going to die. Sigourney Weaver, or maybe the tough female soldier turns around and smacks him across the face and says something along the lines of 'get your sh*t together!!!'
And of course Andrew (being an Aussie) can't keep anything to himself, had to pipe up as well!!
Thanks, Sahin!! Very good of you..
I am currently doing most of what you suggested for shooting.. My 70d allows me to set the k up to 10000. Photos still come out a bit blue, however.. At the moment, I take the photos right off the camera and post them.. I will have to consider Lightroom or another software to tweak them a bit more.
If I ever get to the UK, I will be buying you a beer or two!
I have some GHL Mitras for sale... I'm going full my/t5 with some small blue led supplementation.
The question now is if I should add a third double ended 150 mh or go with two 250 mh... Hm..
No problems buddy. Funny thing is, I had the same imagery in my head when I made the post; you just needed a big slap to bring you back to your senses.. :lol:
Seriously though, the latest photos show you are well on your way again. Acros look very healthy.
With regards to the camera; you can tweak the white balance on Canon camera by messing with a grid thing with Red Blue Green Cyan on a cross. If you search on google with your camera model number and add words like "white balance"/"custom white balance" etc, something will come up.
Alternatively, since you have a nice newer model, take your photos in RAW and then use a RAW converter. That is a much better way. Actually, try that next time.
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
This is Biggles' Fault. He didnt tell me to buy a Flipper.
This is Biggles' Fault. He didnt tell me to buy a Flipper.
So I thought Biggles would be informing us about latest reefkeeping gadgets that one really needs to keep the glass looking ultra clear...but no...Biggles didnt bother telling us to go buy a Flipper. :headwallblue:
So the last few years I've been struggling with my arm in the water trying to clean the damn glass and even though trying my best, always knocking an acro or splashing water outside the tank. :mad2::mad2::mad2: Clearly, Biggles' was supposed to test new equipment and tell us to go buy one. But he didnt. :debi:
This is what I used to struggle with:
This is what I now use:
Video demonstration (mine is the med sized Flipper Mag and works better than even the video shows):
I used to HATE, really HATE cleaning the glass with that silly scraper thing.
I am so glad I bought one recently! It cleans the tough green film and coralline algae very easily. No more arm in tank. Cleaning the back glass is easy too. That was the worst part...I always used to curse and break acro branches and splash water here and there...
No thanks to Biggles...but many thanks to the fish store who placed the magnet prominently in a nice glass display to catch my attention and force me to buy it.
This is Biggles' Fault. He didnt tell me to buy a Flipper.
So I thought Biggles would be informing us about latest reefkeeping gadgets that one really needs to keep the glass looking ultra clear...but no...Biggles didnt bother telling us to go buy a Flipper. :headwallblue:
So the last few years I've been struggling with my arm in the water trying to clean the damn glass and even though trying my best, always knocking an acro or splashing water outside the tank. :mad2::mad2::mad2: Clearly, Biggles' was supposed to test new equipment and tell us to go buy one. But he didnt. :debi:
This is what I used to struggle with:
This is what I now use:
Video demonstration (mine is the med sized Flipper Mag and works better than even the video shows):
I used to HATE, really HATE cleaning the glass with that silly scraper thing.
I am so glad I bought one recently! It cleans the tough green film and coralline algae very easily. No more arm in tank. Cleaning the back glass is easy too. That was the worst part...I always used to curse and break acro branches and splash water here and there...
No thanks to Biggles...but many thanks to the fish store who placed the magnet prominently in a nice glass display to catch my attention and force me to buy it.
Myka
Reefing since '93
Haven't you guys ever seen the Easy Blade attachments? You just glue them onto the back of an algae magnet (works well with cheap MagFloats and the Algae Free magnets). The blade works so well that you really don't rely on the cleaning pad of the magnet. They are $12 or something and the blades are less than $10 for a 6 pack of double sided blades. They come in grey or black to match most magnets.
Mark Levenson took a bunch of pics (disregard the pricing in his pics - don't know where he paid that much!).
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14284409&postcount=388
Mark Levenson took a bunch of pics (disregard the pricing in his pics - don't know where he paid that much!).
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14284409&postcount=388
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reefmutt
Active member
Haven't you guys ever seen the Easy Blade attachments? You just glue them onto the back of an algae magnet (works well with cheap MagFloats and the Algae Free magnets). The blade works so well that you really don't rely on the cleaning pad of the magnet. They are $12 or something and the blades are less than $10 for a 6 pack of double sided blades. They come in grey or black to match most magnets.
Mark Levenson took a bunch of pics (disregard the pricing in his pics - don't know where he paid that much!).
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14284409&postcount=388
Yep... These are by far the best! Although I'm not sure how common they are..
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
Haven't you guys ever seen the Easy Blade attachments? You just glue them onto the back of an algae magnet (works well with cheap MagFloats and the Algae Free magnets). The blade works so well that you really don't rely on the cleaning pad of the magnet. They are $12 or something and the blades are less than $10 for a 6 pack of double sided blades. They come in grey or black to match most magnets.
Mark Levenson took a bunch of pics (disregard the pricing in his pics - don't know where he paid that much!).
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14284409&postcount=388
Biggles never told us about these... :headwallblue: So because of Biggles' fault, I spent $50 on that bloody flipper thing instead of $12 :headwallblue:
Many NO thanks Biggles for making me spend money on Flipper when you could have told me about the $12 purchase. :thumbdown:
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
Biggles didnt tell you either...
Thanks. Yeah it sucked big time, but its a learning experience.
Maybe if Biggles told you the day before the yesterday day...Wow,
This is something I needed yesterday
