Bubble king 400 ext. VS Deltec AP 1004
- Thread starter Daniel_ber
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hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Am I seeing that right? H&S did a custom bubbleplate skimmer for you? Wow... I wouldnt have seen that coming... looks like H&S will built anything.
I have a side question since all the brains are assembled... Im looking to use a spare Eheim 1262 I have laying around as a needlewheel/meshwheel skimmer. Does anyone know what might be the best place to get a mesh/needlewheel for this skimmer? I know that the outputs on 1260-1262s get ported out slightly as well... that might come next if I can find a good impeller... but where?
I have a side question since all the brains are assembled... Im looking to use a spare Eheim 1262 I have laying around as a needlewheel/meshwheel skimmer. Does anyone know what might be the best place to get a mesh/needlewheel for this skimmer? I know that the outputs on 1260-1262s get ported out slightly as well... that might come next if I can find a good impeller... but where?
Daniel_ber
you have 2100 liter system and i think i know where you live and the electric there very expensive....
if you not rush i suggest to you to wait it's can take some time but when the ATI Bubble Master (BM300) will be out it's will perform low electricity and as i am sure better then all those skimmer here also the price will be better .
you have 2100 liter system and i think i know where you live and the electric there very expensive....
if you not rush i suggest to you to wait it's can take some time but when the ATI Bubble Master (BM300) will be out it's will perform low electricity and as i am sure better then all those skimmer here also the price will be better .
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hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Thats true magvi... or I was thinking... why not get two BM250s and call it a day. Two of those are still something like 80 watts only and would cost less than the other options.
it's a better idea to run 2 skimmer and i have that in my mind before but i don't know if he have big sump 2 put 2 BM250 there because of that i didn't said that.
2 skimmer will perform better then any other big one and especially 2 BM250 . i know in europe ppl run 1 BM250 in this size of tank and even bigger , 2100liter (555 us gallon) and i think the BM250 can handle this size to .
the BM300 will kick any other big skimmer and will be perfect for the big tank , i hope we will see it soon.......:lol:
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Ive heard rumors of a recirculating BM skimmer as well.... any word on that? FWIW, I was thinking of DIYing a recirculating BM style skimmer. Ive been playing with DIY versions of their vortex bubble plate and it looks promising... similar to the Twister M skimmer that Aquaconnect sells in a way. Anyways, I was thinking 30" tall, 12" diameter, and an 8-10" bubble neck going up the center like an ATI/Fauna-Marin... powered by a needlewheel dart or a pair of pumps that would give me about 2500lph of air at 24" of water depth.
you not leave far for me and if i am not wrong you have BK skimmer tell me if you want to do side by side test and honest one no need to read horror story you can see it in your eye
and we will make some other measure to , like that we can give a better info and to see real result it will be very interesting and helpfull decision for members that want to know the real different between those 2 skimmer .
Fliger
New member
Based on your tank size I'd say either get the BK400 - I think you can get the RD2250 with it, especially being in Europe. H&S also has skimmers with more than 3x1260, just check with your salesperson. But since Eheims in Europe only draw 600-650 LPH, I would agree you need 4x1260 (if you go H&S/Deltec). Here in the US, comparable Deltecs cost way more than H&S - but I think it might be different over there.
I had the BK300 Ext and it was amazing. I have seen Reefer714's and he never shows pix of the 5 gallon collection bucket full of skimmer poop.
Its disgusting! I also ran a A300 3x1260 and its a beast!
But if you were in the US, I'd say get the H&S 3x1260 since its fewer pumps and 2,700 LPH. There maybe the BK400 with a 2250 is a better choice.
Good luck, post pix.
I had the BK300 Ext and it was amazing. I have seen Reefer714's and he never shows pix of the 5 gallon collection bucket full of skimmer poop.
Its disgusting! I also ran a A300 3x1260 and its a beast!But if you were in the US, I'd say get the H&S 3x1260 since its fewer pumps and 2,700 LPH. There maybe the BK400 with a 2250 is a better choice.
Good luck, post pix.
McCrary
Can't Stop Time
Deltecs are cheaper than H&S in Europe (which makes you wonder why they're charging us so much over here). But the build is better for the H&S, so its worth it. I really don't think that BM is going to compare to BK. You are talking about two different arenas of price and quality. I think that BM makes a good product for the price and is an alternative to some of the more expensive skimmers. But if you have the cash, I can't see you going wrong with BK (or H&S for that matter).
Mavgi I would love to do that some day but only if theres a replacement fir my tank while doing so PLEASE do not take my posts as flames im sorry to anyone that might think so I think turbo sums it up perfectly. Mav talk to rich about his BM. I have had just about all the great skimmers and im am happuest with my BK and again like i posted I thkn everyone REALLY needs to remember no one tank is the same. My 120g w/ the same eqiuptment as your 120 will be diffrent in so many ways. My bacteria could breakdown more waste then yours does theres so many diffrent reasons for one to have diffrent skimate then the next. I had my bk off line for a week and when i put it back on it skimmed like CRAZY now that it caught back up to where it left off the skimate is alot less and yes I have a BIG bioload. I also have a Dialyseas on my system which helps alot also keeping everything at 0 and my PO4 at .01 (hanna) again JMHO
PLEASE do not take my posts as flames im sorry to anyone that might think so I think turbo sums it up perfectly. Mav talk to rich about his BM. I have had just about all the great skimmers and im am happuest with my BK and again like i posted I thkn everyone REALLY needs to remember no one tank is the same. My 120g w/ the same eqiuptment as your 120 will be diffrent in so many ways. My bacteria could breakdown more waste then yours does theres so many diffrent reasons for one to have diffrent skimate then the next. I had my bk off line for a week and when i put it back on it skimmed like CRAZY now that it caught back up to where it left off the skimate is alot less and yes I have a BIG bioload. I also have a Dialyseas on my system which helps alot also keeping everything at 0 and my PO4 at .01 (hanna) again JMHO tanya72806
i hope you have space in your sump , if yes we do the side by side test on your tank .
when i will have replace one i will send you pm and then i can bring my BM250 and start the test.
hahnmeister :
sorry i can't said nothing yet but i can tell that it's will be a big surprise ..... and again the important part for us the hobbyist it's will be great and this because : price , performance and better quality to
i hope you have space in your sump , if yes we do the side by side test on your tank .
when i will have replace one i will send you pm and then i can bring my BM250 and start the test.
hahnmeister :
sorry i can't said nothing yet but i can tell that it's will be a big surprise ..... and again the important part for us the hobbyist it's will be great and this because : price , performance and better quality to
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Oh, agree 100%. BKs are like a fine tuned porche compared to the BMs... not alot of refinement, so they make up for it with raw output like a chevy camaro. There gets to be a point though where you gotta ask yourself... how much more am I gaining by paying the premium for that fine tuned item? The BM's do a decent job skimming... no doubt about that. As good as a BK? Well... technically I think the BM250 is more efficient than the equivalent BK from the wattage/air throughput ratio... but this is why I compare BMs to camaros.
Back when bubble plates by Spazz and Bill started showing up and people 'jumped in' to the latest DIY fad, there was some hot debate on bubble plate design. Many felt that simply having a cumulative hole diameter that equaled 2 or 3x the outlet diameter of the mixing pump was 'close enough'. I argued that there must be more to it... alot more. Bean got upset and told me I was applying science where it wasnt needed... overcomplicating, etc... but after making a few bubble plates to play with... I was noticing things...
Multiple smaller holes functioned much better than fewer larger ones. Look at a BK's plate and then a BM and tell me what you see.
There are pressure, throughput (air and water) variables, etc. Not knowing how many holes to drill (or a cumulative hole area ideal) can mean you end up with too little pressure behind the plate... and you end up with larger bubbles being passed here & there. Having too little holes and you end up with too much upward momentum behind the bubbles, and that bubble plate might not be giving you the advantage that it could because its pushing the bubbles to the surface faster.
After a while, Klaus shared some of this with me because he saw my posts on bubble plates. Turns out I was on to something. There are equasions for determining ideal bubble plate size and number of holes... based on the pressure, airflow, and waterflow of the mixing pump. Simply multiplying the area of the pump outlet or guessing can leave you with less than perfect results... sometimes causing more harm than just running w/o a bubble plate. What Im trying to get at is that there are some very specific variables that have to match up here.
So this is what I find odd...
ATI had the eheim 1262 threadwheel until it came to the US. Then, due to 'problems' with the eheim (seems odd because eheims shouldnt have a problem running this...) ATI had to find a new pump. Elke Müller (owner) ended up with the SICCE clone of the new Tunze needlewheel as the new pump. The thing I dont get now is...
The lph of air throughput on a BM has been increased alot by the new pumps. On a BM250 the air throughput has pretty much doubled. So one would reason that a new design for the bubble plate... perhaps a new diameter or something... would be in order, no?
Nope. Larger pumps and more power. Sounds like the Tim Allen method of skimmer engineering... which doesnt always turn out working too well.
Luckily the BMs seem to be benefiting from the 'more power' idea... this time.
FWIW, Klaus told me that ATI stole the design in a way from F-M. The designer, who contacted Klaus in the process for approval and such on the F-M designs, was not involved with the ATIs. I forget the exact details... they are all in German in my PM box...lol. But the basic idea was that the ATI design isnt as refined or calculated. There comes a point where simply blowing as many bubbles as you can into a column of water can be counterproductive... and you end up skimming out more water than you need to.
Back when bubble plates by Spazz and Bill started showing up and people 'jumped in' to the latest DIY fad, there was some hot debate on bubble plate design. Many felt that simply having a cumulative hole diameter that equaled 2 or 3x the outlet diameter of the mixing pump was 'close enough'. I argued that there must be more to it... alot more. Bean got upset and told me I was applying science where it wasnt needed... overcomplicating, etc... but after making a few bubble plates to play with... I was noticing things...
Multiple smaller holes functioned much better than fewer larger ones. Look at a BK's plate and then a BM and tell me what you see.
There are pressure, throughput (air and water) variables, etc. Not knowing how many holes to drill (or a cumulative hole area ideal) can mean you end up with too little pressure behind the plate... and you end up with larger bubbles being passed here & there. Having too little holes and you end up with too much upward momentum behind the bubbles, and that bubble plate might not be giving you the advantage that it could because its pushing the bubbles to the surface faster.
After a while, Klaus shared some of this with me because he saw my posts on bubble plates. Turns out I was on to something. There are equasions for determining ideal bubble plate size and number of holes... based on the pressure, airflow, and waterflow of the mixing pump. Simply multiplying the area of the pump outlet or guessing can leave you with less than perfect results... sometimes causing more harm than just running w/o a bubble plate. What Im trying to get at is that there are some very specific variables that have to match up here.
So this is what I find odd...
ATI had the eheim 1262 threadwheel until it came to the US. Then, due to 'problems' with the eheim (seems odd because eheims shouldnt have a problem running this...) ATI had to find a new pump. Elke Müller (owner) ended up with the SICCE clone of the new Tunze needlewheel as the new pump. The thing I dont get now is...
The lph of air throughput on a BM has been increased alot by the new pumps. On a BM250 the air throughput has pretty much doubled. So one would reason that a new design for the bubble plate... perhaps a new diameter or something... would be in order, no?
Nope. Larger pumps and more power. Sounds like the Tim Allen method of skimmer engineering... which doesnt always turn out working too well.
Luckily the BMs seem to be benefiting from the 'more power' idea... this time.
FWIW, Klaus told me that ATI stole the design in a way from F-M. The designer, who contacted Klaus in the process for approval and such on the F-M designs, was not involved with the ATIs. I forget the exact details... they are all in German in my PM box...lol. But the basic idea was that the ATI design isnt as refined or calculated. There comes a point where simply blowing as many bubbles as you can into a column of water can be counterproductive... and you end up skimming out more water than you need to.
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