Defining the "perfect" onyx percula

[reefdragon1086]

<a href="http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/saltwaterdragon1086/?action=view&current=529c8df3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/saltwaterdragon1086/529c8df3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

How about this wild one....

 

[SkullV]

This front fish (the male) defines my opinion of the perfect Onyx Percula.

 

[this is me]

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How about this wild one....

This is my definition of a super onyx. I love the black bleeding into the fins and tail.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

reefdragon-

reefdragon-

how old is that fish and what anemone is it being kept with?




Phil- I'm in total agreement with your post and I love this one!

 

[hawgdawg]

MarineBioHSU,

what's with the change of heart? I remember not long ago you saying that the only genuine "onyx" clowns were those that came from C-quest, in fact I think you used to sell them for C-quest. Now you are saying that your "onyx" come from 4 different locations and that C-quest fish are inbred. I assume you are no longer affiliated with C-quest?

 

[DeathWish302]

Unfortunately until we collectively form a BOD, we will never solidify 'what' is considered the 'perfect' pedigree traits. While reading this entire thread, I could not stop thinking the majority of posts are subjective to individual likes.

Now I may be going off the deep end, but I personally do not care for Rod's clowns. I find they look 'mutant'. I have seen many C-Quest specimens and find those to not carry that same trait. So I would consider his clowns to be B1'+' IMHO. Not picking on Rod, as most of my Tomatos' I have bred in the last 5 years would be considered no better than 'A-'. There are very few 'perfect' fish from commercial breeders also, as I have grew out my broodstock for 2+yrs before deciding on what specimen made the broodstock cut. The BIG boys (SA, ORA, C-Quest, ProAquatix, etc.) are not producing 'perfect' broodstock either. I did find one Tomato female I grew out that I considered as close to perfect as possible, unfortunately she met her demise by her owner's hand in a rockslide about 6 months ago. :furious:

The next major stepping stone in this grading scale is setting up the orgaization that is the ruling body and convincing the BIG boys that it can help THEIR sales. W/O their support, the small sector of private 'home' breeders will not keep this campaign afloat. That being said, I as a sporadic home breeder would gladly pay the $20-100/yr fee to put the stamp on my fish so I may get a little more on return for my specimens. How many people are willing to spring a little more for an ORA grown coral when their neighbor has the same strain...? I know quite a few that have this mindset. Hopefully, a IMOBA (International Marine Ornamental Breeder's Association) would have this same hype and create a market that would support this coalition.

Currently there is a MI based webpage for breeder's (MBI - Marine Breeder Initative) or even MOFIB. We really need to escalate this to that level and the further. Maybe even piggyback on some similar non-profit organization that exists. Without leadership, this will go no where with only an RC-defined grading system.

This is just ramblings in my head at this point.... Anyone else with input?

 

[MarineBioHSU]

Hawgdawg:

You are right, the original name Onyx was coined by Bill at C-Quest. He used to the term to describe the "early blacks" which were essentially fish that showed black at an early age. After successive generations of inbreeding/selective breeding for dark coloration, we have the C-Quest Onyx.

And I did state that the true Onyx are from C-Quest, and what I mean by that is the only line of Percula that I am aware of that will produce Onyx offspring are descendants of the C-Quest fish. My frustration comes from people who have a good looking pair of WC Perculas exhibiting the Onyx coloration, who will then sell their offspring as Onyx before they fully color up. In other words, I think in order to call them Onyx by lineage, there needs to be substantial proof to back up the claim, having dark parents is not enough. In the past few years I have seen some other breeders putting out some nice Black Percs that were not from the C-quest line, and I would say they are close to being able to be called Onyx.

And to answer your other question, I think my tastes have just changed over time, as much as I love Onyx, I just can't compare any fish to a beautiful WC looking fish, and no amount of black on a fish that has a messed up looking body will please me. Maybe I am just stuck up lol.

And, you are also right that it is a bit hypocritical of me to assert that the only true Onyx come from C-Quest while then stating that I am working on my own Onyx line, thanks for calling me out on that.. Again, what I mean to be saying is that, IMO, fish should not be marketed as Onyx unless they have a clear lineage showing that they are from dark parents that meet the Onyx criteria, and that their offspring will exhibit the same coloration. So to that extent, what I mean by "my onyx strain" is that I am working on developing a line of perculas that will consistently produce "Onyx" colored percs, but that are not inbred, which is why I have worked so hard on obtaining broodstock from many different locals. Again, the hope is to avoid the inbred deformities.

That being said, I have to give Kudos to Rod for the way he raises his fish. To the best of my understanding he raises his juvie Onyx in a more natural setting that produces higher quality Onyx than are typically other wise being produced.

Geez...that was really long winded, sorry for that!

 

[Fig]

Not sure if these are but were sold to me as Onyx. $50 for the pair

 

[chi]

Yes, she's about 2.5yrs old post hatch. Got a trio straight from c-quest and she's the only one that survived through the years (don't ask me, it was all because of dumb mistakes on my part, like not closing the top lid). She's one of the best looking onyx that I've managed to obtain, and I've had several throughout the years. She's in good hands now and I hope to see some babies soon .

I believe the original owner had it for 2 years. He originally had a pair and lost the male, and gave up searching for one to match her in quality..
She is paired up with my wild onyx that is no where as black as her, But meets the minimum requirements for a onyx,
The only thing i would not rate perfect on her is the banding, But other than that i think she is the closest a breeder is going to get to perfect. JMO
This is a cquest clown.

 

[jake levi]

Gary I really like your male, has he bred yet?

Also like the first two posts on the page, I like the dark black with first dorsal black and a good orange head.

Also I donot like the bulldogs and other should be culls that we see.

And, lastly would really like to see some of those hi-line Tomatoes, one of my favorite Marines.

 

[Creetin]

Yes, she's about 2.5yrs old post hatch. Got a trio straight from c-quest and she's the only one that survived through the years (don't ask me, it was all because of dumb mistakes on my part, like not closing the top lid). She's one of the best looking onyx that I've managed to obtain, and I've had several throughout the years. She's in good hands now and I hope to see some babies soon .

Thanks Chi! She is doing well, and has taken the male in. She approves of his home which is no where near the nem. LOL

 

[elegance coral]

What about those black/onyx perculas that change color? This is different from judging the "Picasso" patterns that don't change. The black color can come and go. Is an onyx always an onyx, or is it just an onyx while it's showing the proper coloration?

Just an example of what I'm talking about.
This is a pair of wild SI percs I had back in the day.

This is the same pair about a year later.

 

[MarineBioHSU]

That is a good point elegance coral.

I personally propose the following defenitions:

1. An Onyx will be defined as a Percula exhibiting the "Onyx" pattern, but only called Onyx if it comes from a proven lineage where the black coloration is based solely on genetics.

2. A Black Percula will be defined as a Percula exhibiting the "Onyx" pattern, but its coloration may be dependant upon environmental factors such as host species and lighting etc.

That is just how I judge them, but its just my opinion.

 

[elegance coral]

1. An Onyx will be defined as a Percula exhibiting the "Onyx" pattern, but only called Onyx if it comes from a proven lineage where the black coloration is based solely on genetics.

Even in the C-Quest line of black/onyx/melanistic perculas, we've seen that the black isn't "based solely on genetics". This line has clearly shown a strong genetic trait of becoming melanistic, but it can come and go in these fish as well. There is an old thread around here somewhere about Rod's onyx losing their black when kept in BTA's. So, when a C-Quest percula, from this bloodline, isn't showing melanistic coloration, is it still an onyx?

 

[Arati]

This is my .02$

Onyx clowns are a product of c-quest breeding imo to qualify the fish must be from that stock. beyond that you have some with more black and some with less.

for the purpose of sales/ breeding. looking at a 1" fish no matter how much black thats on it or not on it. if its from that line I can be confident it had a high % chance to look a certain way.

since rods fish are c-quest .. they are onyx.

there are a few other people who breed really nice onyx , almost all are from that line.

when a png shipment comes in with some crazy looking all black percula, it should be describe as an onxy "type" clownfish. since there is no way to know if it will breed true or is just an anomaly in an otherwise mostly orange lineage.

If another breeder creates a lineage with a reliable coloring then those fish should be describes as " Name Onyx" like .. If I had a bred out wc line then call em Arati's Onyx.

saying just Onyx imo mean Bill Addison bred.

If you want to see what an A+ grade Onyx should look like , find Rods pictures of his pair.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Are we saying that the only way a fish can be an onxy is if comes from cquest? Onxy clownfish are man made or made from select breeding only???? I posted a picture of my perculas and they are wild caught. Now i am lost all together....

 

[elegance coral]

Are we saying that the only way a fish can be an onxy is if comes from cquest? Onxy clownfish are man made or made from select breeding only???? I posted a picture of my perculas and they are wild caught. Now i am lost all together....

The term "onyx" was coined to describe a line of melanistic perculas that were being bred by C-Quest. Before that, any percula that had a great deal of black would simply be called a melanistic percula. Some people believe that only the C-Quest line should be called "onyx". The problem is that we don't have a cool name to call all the other melanistic perculas, so people have been calling them all onyx, regardless of origin.

 

[jake levi]

Onyx Lines

Onyx Lines

Does Rod have a website?

I myself like the black body, and dorsal with fins lined in black and the orange face and points, to me that is very attractive.

I am looking forward for more on this thread.

 

[trueblackpercula]

The term "onyx" was coined to describe a line of melanistic perculas that were being bred by C-Quest. Before that, any percula that had a great deal of black would simply be called a melanistic percula. Some people believe that only the C-Quest line should be called "onyx". The problem is that we don't have a cool name to call all the other melanistic perculas, so people have been calling them all onyx, regardless of origin.

Got it......We could always call them by there name "Trueblackperculas"

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Are we saying that the only way a fish can be an onxy is if comes from cquest? Onxy clownfish are man made or made from select breeding only???? ...

here's Bill Addison's full answer to that question

Getting back to the wild caught fish, I asked Bill point black - should a wild caught fish, bearing black flanks (black between headstripe and midstripe, and midstripe and tailbar) be called an "Onyx Percula"? Bill's answer was that there wasn't a correct answer to that question - "call it whatever you like" was Bill's ultimate verdict I suppose that falls exactly in line with the premise of "any fish showing the black coloration at 4-6 months is an onyx, if not, it's sold as a percula".

So.... there's onyx percula and the C-quest strain of onyx percula. (Or whatever you want to call them!)

Personally, I'm more interested in factors other than genetics that might influence development of black coloration.

Do people really believe lighting plays a part in it?

I tend to believe host anemone species is a much bigger factor.