Have ICH looky here!!!!!

[jason2459]

probably lost in the length of this thread but one of the original concepts worth mentioning again was that there were three generally accepted methods of treatment for ich---all requiring a quarantine tank:

....

Totally agree. I mentioned all I got from the ich attack stuff was a good case of cyano. That stuff is 100% organic according to them. Which to me means that if you go by how they want you to dose you'll be adding in a LOT of nutrients that will break down to good ol nitrates and phosphates plus who knows what else is in the product as they do not give an ingredient break down. They also mention to keep dosing three days after you see the ich disappear. Again, to me, that sounds like lets just keep dosing until the ich falls off the fish in the ich's natural life cycle and say it worked. There may be something in the product that helps boost the fish's immune system to fight off another infestation on them like garlic seems too but who knows. I really don't think it kills or stops the ich life cycle. At least that's been my experience.

But if someone wants to try it then good luck and there's the website above on what Kordon recommends.

 

[Blinkgyrl2987]

Currently this hobby revolves around the use of chemicals for disease treament. Thats the way its been done for 40 some plus years. Personally I think the hobby could be more successful without them. It would involve independent filtration. LFS's and all the chains such as petsmart and Petco would have their tanks separated and not have all the water, fish and disease being ran together. Wholesalers would also have to cooperate and not use the copper and formaldehyde that they do. I can't name how many times I've gone and purchased fish and ended up with Ich. Its really sad and takes the fun out of the hobby, but all the chemicals do is kill more fish (if the fish are strong enough to survive treatment they still sustain damage). Better chemical free ways of treating fish are on the cutting edge right now, hopefully we can get everyone on board and not have to use the chemicals anymore. What an improvement for this hobby that would be =)

The wholesalers use high levels of copper and formaldehyde for LONG periods of time as preventative measures (this is how they ensure that their fish are shipped parasite free). But what good does it do if all these fish go to infected LFS systems all over the states?Most of these fish are now more susceptible to disease at the pet stores because they've been weakened from chemical treatment. My biggest hangup with the chemical use are the negative side effects. Both copper and formaldehye effect the fish's gills, liver and kidneys, essentially weakening the fish.

The other thing is that when I say all the disease free fish get shipped from the wholesaler to the LFS, what i really mean is: the fish that survive the high levels of copper at the wholesaler get shipped. Many fish die before even making it to your LFS because of the damage they sustain after chemical treatment.

I know chemicals have been one of the predominent treatment methods in the past (which is why we are still using them today) but what if there were other ways? And what if we could save fish lives by not using the chemicals... what if the wholesalers got on board and supported this change? We could change the Aquarium Industry forever.. and for the better! Thats what Im excited for.

Currently I quarantine all my fish in a separate tank. If Ich appears in 4-6 weeks I treat my freshwater fish by increasing the salinity over a period of a few days, and I treat my saltwater fish by lowering their salinity in the same way.

 

[WaterKeeper]

The other thing is that when I say all the disease free fish get shipped from the wholesaler to the LFS, what i really mean is: the fish that survive the high levels of copper at the wholesaler get shipped. Many fish die before even making it to your LFS because of the damage they sustain after chemical treatment. Emphasis mine

Hey Blink I hear you :thumbsup:

I do wish to point out that without chemical treatments the survival rates of recently captured and transported fish would probably be far lower. From the moment a native on Tonga nets a fish its arrival in your tank is very chancy. Although transport times and conditions have improved dramatically since the early 80's they are not instantaneous.

One must realize that the importers have a large investment in this harvest and losing as little as possible makes economic sense. Over time low dose treatments with some chemicals have proven to greatly increase the number of viable fish that can reach the LFS.

I agree that it would be great if better methods for hypo could be provided from capture to sale it would be a great boon to the hobby, but until that time, old proven methods must be used.

I always wonder myself about using low does Zoloft at the time of collection. :sad1:

 

[thebkramer]

Alright Newbies, there are just so many times in a day I can cure a case of Ich or Velvet. So to save myself some serious carpal tunnel here is the lowdown.

:lmao:
LOVE IT!!
2yrs here.. this is my first seeing this!!

SO GLAD YOU'RE BACK WATERKEEPER!! :bounce3:

 

[Aquarist007]

Hey Blink I hear you :thumbsup:

I do wish to point out that without chemical treatments the survival rates of recently captured and transported fish would probably be far lower. From the moment a native on Tonga nets a fish its arrival in your tank is very chancy. Although transport times and conditions have improved dramatically since the early 80's they are not instantaneous.

One must realize that the importers have a large investment in this harvest and losing as little as possible makes economic sense. Over time low dose treatments with some chemicals have proven to greatly increase the number of viable fish that can reach the LFS.

I agree that it would be great if better methods for hypo could be provided from capture to sale it would be a great boon to the hobby, but until that time, old proven methods must be used.

I always wonder myself about using low does Zoloft at the time of collection. :sad1:

the operant word here is "low" dose of chemicals.

The use of viagara is probably more effective here Tom--makes the fish bigger and easier to catch

 

[digibee]

Hi, I am starting to use copper to treat my DT; as I am having a FOWLR.

One question, can I dose trace elements, and macrobacter while the tank is under copper treatment? Or I cannot dose anything until the copper treatment is done and most of it remove thru water change and carbon.

Thanks!

 

[Aquarist007]

Hi, I am starting to use copper to treat my DT; as I am having a FOWLR.

One question, can I dose trace elements, and macrobacter while the tank is under copper treatment? Or I cannot dose anything until the copper treatment is done and most of it remove thru water change and carbon.

Thanks!

WAIT you will destroy all the bacteria on the live rock and render the live rock usless.

 

[digibee]

I will rebuild those good bacteria after the treatment.

Now, I am just thinking whether I can dose reef supplement/buffer while doing copper treatment?

 

[WaterKeeper]

AHHH! Listen to the Capn!

Digibee,

Please don't use copper on the display. Copper is a potent biocide and not only will the bacteria die but also the coralline and any corals in the display. Copper absorbed by the Live Rock and Sand will make reseeding impossible, or at least difficult, for quite awhile, perhaps 3-4 months. Even then the coralline will be months in making a comeback.

Treat the disease in a Q tank and save yourself some heartache. Oh, and why are you dosing supplements? I'm sure you have no test kits available that can detect the low amounts of material that they add and any good salt mix has all those trace elements already in it. They are chemical elements and the last I checked they don't vanish into the heavens. :headwally:

Maybe there has been a radical change in chemical theory while I was away.

 

[Aquarist007]

AHHH!

Maybe there has been a radical change in chemical theory while I was away.

No change in theory Tom but you can bet there have been 50 or so new products out there to lure the unsuspecting hobbyist into becoming a dosing dumbo:lolspin:

good to have you back my friend and mentor

 

[digibee]

Oh, ok thanks for the replies.

Will need to setup a proper QT.

Now my QT is just a big tub; but the weather is too hot here.


Thanks!

 

[WaterKeeper]

Digibee,

QT tanks come in all shapes and sizes. A tube is just fine (you really didn't think fish needed glass sides to see their human pets ). For a fish QT all that is needed is good circulation and some cheapo lights. Count on fairly large and frequent water changes to keep toxins in place. That solution is far better than ruining your investment to date by medicating the display.

A few capfuls of "Completly Safe Copper" has driven tons of people from this wonderful hobby that would be reefing today if they had read up on it before medicating the display.

 

[Niglin]

I've successfully treated ich in it's initial stages with the all natural cures RE: Kordons 'Ich Attack' & feeding with foods soaked in garlic and ginger, I've also used a bit of malachite green. I cannot use copper etc. or hypo-salinity as I have a reef tank. Personally, I would also be loathed to put my fish in an uncycled quarantine tank, as they'd have to endure even more stressors, and variable conditions. Incidentally, I haven't seen any real good conclusive information as to how to combat the ich in the 'Tomont' stage - within' the substrate, which is where they may very well be now... Reef and corals aside, does anybody have experience defeating this within' the substrate/at this stage, & what did you do, or use? Thanks.

 

[Aquarist007]

I've successfully treated ich in it's initial stages with the all natural cures RE: Kordons 'Ich Attack' & feeding with foods soaked in garlic and ginger, I've also used a bit of malachite green. I cannot use copper etc. or hypo-salinity as I have a reef tank. Personally, I would also be loathed to put my fish in an uncycled quarantine tank, as they'd have to endure even more stressors, and variable conditions. Incidentally, I haven't seen any real good conclusive information as to how to combat the ich in the 'Tomont' stage - within' the substrate, which is where they may very well be now... Reef and corals aside, does anybody have experience defeating this within' the substrate/at this stage, & what did you do, or use? Thanks.

Even though its a very debatable topic I have had excellent success with a UV sterilizer. Over time the UV sterilizer will remove any rich that is water borne. So if eggs or cysts get introduced to the system from new corals rock fish etc the UV gives you some protection if or when the cysts decide to rupture

 

[Scoobysnack77]

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

It is a good idea to take the fish out and quarantine them.
IMO I would use hyposalination for 4-6 weeks.
In the mean time the display tank can remain fishless for the six weeks to ensure that the ich has been removed from the display tank at the same time.
Hyposalination is easier to tolerate for some tangs.

How big is the hypo--perhaps it should have its own qt for filtration purposes?

how can i quickly remove all of my fish in a reef tank without destroying everything? drain the tank? i have anthias, tangs and a regal angel. should i do hypo or copper?

 

[Aquarist007]

how can i quickly remove all of my fish in a reef tank without destroying everything? drain the tank? i have anthias, tangs and a regal angel. should i do hypo or copper?

What's wrong with the fish?

 

[mortenN]

Is there anyone who has tried the "tank transfer method"?
Experiences?
Works there as expected?

 

[tauscnc]

Hey guys,

I don't understand....

Dealing with ich at the time and QT the 2 fish. My question is this and I have yet to find much info (if any) on it.

Everyone talks about taking all the fish out for xx days and the DT will be ich free. Treat all fish with copper or hypo.

OK - Say I have done all this and everything is good. NOW WHAT do I do if I EVER want to add anything OTHER than fish?

I can't hypo or cooper more rock? Or coral which comes on a rock. Or coral. How about that shrimp, or starfish? Snail? Anemone? Anything OTHER than fish? What do you guys do?

From my understanding ich still lives on inverts, rocks, etc. so how is it ever possible to not reintroduce it again if you every plan to add anything again?

I don't get it and question if it is really ever possible to get rid of ich.

thanks

 

[Brando457]

My understanding is you'd have to keep them quarantined for a minimum of approx 72 days and then the ick will die off as it is doesn't have a host.

Lots of people have separate quarantine tanks for corals + inverts + fish. The way I've always done it is add all my CUC immediately after the cycle and then QT my fish and while they're in QT this allows the display to basically as a QT for the CUC.

Also some vendors do not keep any fish in their invert holding tanks so that is a plus.

 

[tauscnc]

Ahhh ok... well that makes sense. thx

My understanding is you'd have to keep them quarantined for a minimum of approx 72 days and then the ick will die off as it is doesn't have a host.

Lots of people have separate quarantine tanks for corals + inverts + fish. The way I've always done it is add all my CUC at the beginning of the cycle and then QT my fish and while they're in QT this allows the display to basically as a QT for the CUC.

Also some vendors do not keep any fish in their invert holding tanks so that is a plus.