Jebao Cross Flow Pump

[CuzzA]

RB is licensed to import and sell.
Cheap chinese off Amazon is the future of this hobby. That's all there is to it. I bet the high-price guys have a hand full of super rich CEO's sitting around cursing jebao right now. Their emotionally attached fans are pointlessly screaming foul on a few forums. Couple years from now, Jebao and a dozen similar reasonably priced producers will own the market.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericgol...for-ip-violations-by-its-marketplace-vendors/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/reports/infringement

Edit: Nevermind. Apparently this case and law has now been established a few weeks ago. http://www.geekwire.com/2015/amazon...suit-setting-precedent-for-counterfeit-goods/

Basically, you have no protection when it comes to foreign companies stealing your design. They can sell it on eBay or Amazon and it's legal.

 

[seamonster124]

Basically, you have no protection when it comes to foreign companies stealing your design. They can sell it on eBay or Amazon and it's legal.

I have 3 people infringing on my trademark within US and nothing I can do. I was advised to do nothing or possibly face paying THEM! No joke!

You have no protection period.

Solution is to sell you product at a price consumer want to pay and get it to them super fast. Actually is kinda fair if you really see if from the consumer's point of view.

 

[shifty51008]

I have 3 people infringing on my trademark within US and nothing I can do. I was advised to do nothing or possibly face paying THEM! No joke!

You have no protection period.

Solution is to sell you product at a price consumer want to pay and get it to them super fast. Actually is kinda fair if you really see if from the consumer's point of view.

I still dont agree its fair for a company to do all the r&d, spend the money for machines to be fabracated to make their product, spend thousands on patents and hire workers only to have to sell their product at such a low price to where they may or maynot make hardly any money just because they have to compete with companies that will steal all their work and sell it cheaper. Why would company's want to design any thing new then?

 

[mussel and hate]

Go Jebao! Show America what a free market economy really is.

 

[slipknottin]

Go Jebao! Show America what a free market economy really is.

I mean, technically patents (and copyright) are govt sponsored monopolies. So not a free market by design.

Patents were (are perhaps) to encourage inventors creators, etc to publish what they have done so others could see it and build on it, and in return for publishing their invention they would have the exclusive right to produce it for a limited time.

But you have to defend your patent yourself. The govt does not do it. It is your obligation to sue whoever infringes on your patent. Lawsuits do not come cheap, or easy in most cases. Which is why many companies just keep whatever they have done secret, and avoid taking out a patent. But in the case of something that can be reverse engineered, keeping it a secret is not much good

 

[mikeatjac]

If anyone wants or cares about my opnion anymore...

I think patents are anti-economy, drive up product costs, inhibit competition, retard technological growth and are generally bad if you support the idea of an entirely free market. All for the sole purpose of making a company or individual the maximum amount of money possible.

JMO

JMO, patents are very important to creativity and technological growth. They give the designer time to recoup their R&D costs for a set period of time. Why would you waste time creating a new technology, process or product line if someone else can just copy it?

 

[mikeatjac]

You guys have funny quibbling about crap that doesn't matter and that you have no control over.

Bent and I are heading to the bar for a beer and waiting to see a Jebao gyre.

Oh, and to the guy who said I don't know how to run a business, I ran my own business for almost 20 years and retired early! Don't talk about what you know nothing about!

Ron I apologize for lumping you in with some of the statements others have made. First I was not clear, I should have not said business sense but manufacturing/import business knowledge.

When someone sells a product they have to make sure the end seller makes money so I disagree that the whole pricing process is not reviewed before price levels are set. I am sure they looked a volume sales. My point is that maybe they can't reduce their price and make money.

Jebao has a different marketing model. They copy or make a similar products and feed off the marketing/promotion of other manufacturers. I have no problem with that unless it breaks a patent.

Now your beer buddy is different. He clearly has no business sense. So if we bring production home and pay $5 for a part instead having a it made for 50 cents overseas, is he now still going to buy it. It won't create jobs here because it won't work.

Someone else said retail stores have huge mark ups. Yes they do but if you look at their bottom line, they are not making making much money if any and your typical LFS is barely breaking even. A lot of manufacturers factor these suggested markups into pricing so the LFS will carry their products.

I don't care what pump someone uses and I NEVER comment on a product unless I have tried it first unless I say so. I try hard to buy American made but sometimes that is hard.

And yes as you said, there is nothing we can do about the market but choose where we spend our dollars. I have been in this hobby for 40 years and we are now blessed to have many options to pick from.

 

[Ron Reefman]

No problem Mike, I don't take any of this personally. But you still don't know me or what I did. I was involved in manufacturing and importing, both as a banker when I was young and as a retail/wholesaler before I retired.

But you know, it was the big companies in this country that found they could go to China, India, Mexico and other countries to get cheap labor that caused the collapse of the manufacturing base here in the US and now the middle class is disappearing. So the people living on the pay from crap service jobs now need to buy at WalMart and get cheap Chinese goods like Jebao. And I don't blame them, I do it too. Not because I need to, but because I hate being ripped off by companies who have silly high mark ups. The big money guys started this cycle moving manufacturing out of the country. I have very little sympathy for them now. It's a world economy and there is no going back... no matter what Mr Trump says!

You reap what you sow.

 

[mikeatjac]

No problem Mike, I don't take any of this personally. But you still don't know me or what I did. I was involved in manufacturing and importing, both as a banker when I was young and as a retail/wholesaler before I retired.

But you know, it was the big companies in this country that found they could go to China, India, Mexico and other countries to get cheap labor that caused the collapse of the manufacturing base here in the US and now the middle class is disappearing. So the people living on the pay from crap service jobs now need to buy at WalMart and get cheap Chinese goods like Jebao. And I don't blame them, I do it too. Not because I need to, but because I hate being ripped off by companies who have silly high mark ups. The big money guys started this cycle moving manufacturing out of the country. I have very little sympathy for them now. It's a world economy and there is no going back... no matter what Mr Trump says!

You reap what you sow.

I agree there is no going back.

 

[greaps]

I click on Jebao threads when I feel like learning about trade, patents, and China.

 

[Bent]

I think, If patents were so great, then these types of conversations wouldn't exist.

Patent laws haven't stopped any of this and last time I checked both tunze, eco tech and coralview were still making a fortune.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Eh... patents have their uses, and the other times they don't have uses. I mean patents get abused a big way, especially by those with money, and it's something that does need to stop. I mean Samsung and Apple duke it out all the time, Apple patenting round corners and stuff like that But everyone remember Orbitec, who more or less put PFO out of business for their patent on using LEDs to "Grow stuff" in aquariums... I mean come on, this wasn't a patent on anything to do with LEDs other than the act of putting them over an aquarium.

The fact that these knock off looking pumps come out cheap is kind of eye opening too, why do they cost $300+ for a pump when something can be made for a fraction of the cost? Now part of it can be the parts used, in which case the Chinese ones are not using the same parts, so regardless of any aesthetic similarities are not a "rip off" of other brand names. The other part of it is that the Chinese factories they source these parts from simply sell to other people, in which case as a consumer you feel a little ripped off about paying a premium for parts which obviously don't cost that much. Maybe there's a reason we don't see a Vortech knockoff? Probably a lot more goes into that than say a Tunze/Koralia/etc pump.

Then there's the R&D aspect of things, in many cases I can see the argument a company spent time "perfecting" something that works, so they should be able to recover that money. But again that's a case by case instance, and in this instance with the "patent infringement" in question, using a magnet AND a suction cup to hold a pump to a wall... yeah I'm sorry, if they spent that much money on R&D with that, they almost deserve to get ripped off by copiers... "Hmmm there have been suction cups holding pumps to walls forever, magnets are the new thing... why not put both of these together!!!!"

 

[mikeatjac]

I think, If patents were so great, then these types of conversations wouldn't exist.

Patent laws haven't stopped any of this and last time I checked both tunze, eco tech and coralview were still making a fortune.

How do you know these companies are making a fortune? I got news for you they aren't! Check the records.

 

[Bent]

How do you know these companies are making a fortune? I got news for you they aren't! Check the records.

Because I can read dude,

In 2014 ecotech alone had a revenue of 14 million. In their first year they did a whopping 10k total profit, which was 2003.

That's 1400 times growth in a whopping 11 years and they are on pace to end up even higher by the end of this year.

That's despite being "copied" and the founders paying themselves, I'm sure, a hefty annual salary.

What, you think these companies exist out of some kind of noble desire like the advancement of some niche hobby? They exist to make money. Period. But as a person with no business sense apparently, what do I know? If you believe that these companies haven't boomed in the past 10-15 years you either haven't been in the hobby very long or you are very naive, either accidentally or on purpose.

Edit:
Sorry, that sounded like I was implying that you couldn't read. That wasn't my intent.

 

[Bent]

I have 3 people infringing on my trademark within US and nothing I can do. I was advised to do nothing or possibly face paying THEM! No joke!

You have no protection period.

Solution is to sell you product at a price consumer want to pay and get it to them super fast. Actually is kinda fair if you really see if from the consumer's point of view.

Exactly.

Free market is free market. Patents are inhibitive to that end.

 

[mikeatjac]

Because I can read dude,

In 2014 ecotech alone had a revenue of 14 million. In their first year they did a whopping 10k total profit, which was 2003.

That's 1400 times growth in a whopping 11 years and they are on pace to end up even higher by the end of this year.

That's despite being "copied" and the founders paying themselves, I'm sure, a hefty annual salary.

What, you think these companies exist out of some kind of noble desire like the advancement of some niche hobby? They exist to make money. Period. But as a person with no business sense apparently, what do I know? If you believe that these companies haven't boomed in the past 10-15 years you either haven't been in the hobby very long or you are very naive, either accidentally or on purpose.

Edit:
Sorry, that sounded like I was implying that you couldn't read. That wasn't my intent.

You are talking revenues, profits are a different animal. I do think that companies take risks should be rewarded. So what is too much? A ROI of 10% is too much.

BTW good for Ecotech. And who has copied them?

 

[Bent]

Ron I apologize for lumping you in with some of the statements others have made. First I was not clear, I should have not said business sense but manufacturing/import business knowledge.

When someone sells a product they have to make sure the end seller makes money so I disagree that the whole pricing process is not reviewed before price levels are set. I am sure they looked a volume sales. My point is that maybe they can't reduce their price and make money.

Jebao has a different marketing model. They copy or make a similar products and feed off the marketing/promotion of other manufacturers. I have no problem with that unless it breaks a patent.

Now your beer buddy is different. He clearly has no business sense. So if we bring production home and pay $5 for a part instead having a it made for 50 cents overseas, is he now still going to buy it. It won't create jobs here because it won't work.

Someone else said retail stores have huge mark ups. Yes they do but if you look at their bottom line, they are not making making much money if any and your typical LFS is barely breaking even. A lot of manufacturers factor these suggested markups into pricing so the LFS will carry their products.

I don't care what pump someone uses and I NEVER comment on a product unless I have tried it first unless I say so. I try hard to buy American made but sometimes that is hard.

And yes as you said, there is nothing we can do about the market but choose where we spend our dollars. I have been in this hobby for 40 years and we are now blessed to have many options to pick from.

You sir, just made an argument for outsourcing overseas. And I'm the one without any business sense? Give me a break. Then you try to have some kind of purchasing principle, which everyone seems to tout until it comes time to write the check, then turn right around and contradict it. Your either for economic growth by freeing small business from financial strain (which includes patents and lawyers to uphold them). Or you aren't. Apparently your not, because you are making arguments for systems that do nothing but increase a companies overhead.

If you had any knowledge of small business, which apparently you don't and like to psychologically project that on strangers by degrading them on Internet forums, you would know why production costs have to be so low. It's because taxes on small business are astronomical, and the cost of operations is almost prohibitive. So many small business fail because of it. What? You think that just because you have a good idea you will automatically be successful and sell your product? You can't honestly think that.

More and more small business is becoming extinct and mom and pop companies are being shoved out simply because they don't have the Capitol to push production overseas in a mass scale. If we would lower over head and free the market up by ditching patents (which the government just rips ideas off of anyway), significantly lowering taxes, and actually creating some kind of environment that is conducive to company growth, then no one would have to outsource anything anymore, and more jobs would stay here.

American factories are becoming a thing of the past because of this kind of crap.

 

[Bent]

You are talking revenues, profits are a different animal. I do think that companies take risks should be rewarded. So what is too much? A ROI of 10% is too much.

BTW good for Ecotech. And who has copied them?

Apparently according to all of these ludicrous threads jebao did. That's why I put copied in parenthesis.

Oh I'm not suggesting that they are making too much money. There is no such thing in my mind. Let them make as much as possible. I was simply trying to illustrate their growth curve to refute your claim that they were not turning a good profit.

 

[mikeatjac]

First of all Jebao is not a copy of Ecotech and secondly all you did is a fast Google search.

 

[mikeatjac]

Apparently according to all of these ludicrous threads jebao did. That's why I put copied in parenthesis.

Oh I'm not suggesting that they are making too much money. There is no such thing in my mind. Let them make as much as possible. I was simply trying to illustrate their growth curve to refute your claim that they were not turning a good profit.

Just read what you have written.