LED Color Aesthetics: The Emperor's got no clothes. Or does he?

So I was going to go ahead with a diy led build but 40 pages of discouragement has utterly threw that out the window. I'm totally discouraged now. I hoped that after hours and hours of reading these 40 pages, I'd have some sort of solid basis to start my build upon. Ohh well I guess I'll just have to go with the power sucking metal crockpot halides.
Wow! Your very first RC post! IMO whether or not you should do that DIY depends on whether you want concrete, community consensus on LED emitter/color combinations. If you are waiting on that, then IMO you should get those power sucking metal crockpots. There is no consensus yet, and it may be quite a while before such occurs. Even then, individual taste will keep the picture muddled. I offer the question "Which T5's should I get to make my corals look their best?" Good luck with finding an answer to that. And we are nowhere near as advanced with LED color mixing as the T5 community.

But that does not mean that you can't get good color rendition with LEDs. I wish you could see my tank. But you've got to read the guidance here, and determine who's advice to trust. But it IS possible. Easily.

The one thing I hope has been cleared up since this thread was started... that the "standard" set of 1 or 2 Royal Blues to every 1 Cool White was just wrong. IMO it looks like crap. But there is guidance here that can help you come up with an all LED setup that looks pretty d*mn good IMO. And mine replaced a MH Radium on a nice ballast.

Still, it appears that it's going to be a little while before our knowledge can be distilled to a hand full of rules of thumb, with easy adjustments to make based on color preference. But if people keep sharing their honest findings, we'll get there. :thumbsup:

PS - one problem that really complicates this process is that while getting accurate color rendition in photographs of reef tanks has always been challenging, it's a BEAR with LEDs. And when you can't trust the pics, how can you know who to trust? And I suspect whatever it is that makes LEDs so hard to photograph under accurately is the nature of the beast, and won't be changing anytime soon. But if you live anywhere near Fairfield county Connecticut, you're welcome to come see mine.
 
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Over my 33g I've got 24 XR-E's, all running at roughly 1,000mA over my 34g DT (25" wide by 18" deep):

  • 6 Neutral White
  • 2 Cool White
  • 2 Blue
  • 14 Royal Blue
I know I should be running at 750ma. But I'm sacrificing LED life for more lumens. I mention it here because LED colors shift over the range of amperage they will run under. So a NW at 750mA is going to look different than that same LED at 1000 mA.

And before I go into "missing" I'd like to point out that my tank has a lot of SPS in it, at various levels. As you would expect, some SPS do not do well at the very top of the tank. Too much light. But others do BEST at the top. So if I had it all to do over again, I'd have have put another 12 LEDs in the fixture, and dimmed it more. Right now the 4+ hr peak of my photoperiod runs at 100%. The rest of the time is dimmed to some degree or another. And needless to say, this light appears to be plenty for all my LPS, which are primarily on the bottom of the tank.

To look at my tank with all LEDs at 100%, to my eyes it looks a tad blue. A bit bluer (just a little) and a bit dimmer (just a little) than my old 150W Radiums with roughly 90W (? don't recall exactly) of CF actinics supplementing. Not as white at a 10K, and NOT as blue as a 20K.

Though when I dim the 2 banks of LEDs at night, I dim the bank with the Whites, Blue and 2 RB's faster than I dim the other bank with all RB's. So before the lights go out completely, there's a shift to more and more RB dominated light. And before it turns ALL RB, is IMO when the tank is the most "eye catching". Not that "Tim Burton's Reef Tank" black light look like you can get with all RB. More like dim daylight with fluorescent colors thrown in. But even if that were bright enough, I'd not run it like that all the time. Yet it is quite beautiful (if unnatural looking) for a little while each evening.

Bottom line, my normal colors appear like a barely blue cast daylight.

If I were to speculate further on what's missing, I'd offer the following:


  1. I LOVE the pop of UV/Violets from my limited testing. But from that same testing, I'm certain it would take a LOT of them to see it under the 100% lit condition I normally run. I'm guessing 8 running at full intensity. And that much extra - barely visible - light might require dimming back the other light, so as not to cook the corals.
  2. I see red well enough, but my oranges may be a bit diminished. Hard to say. Though in experimentation with a deep red (660 nm) I found that it did not effect most reds, but caused a few, very specific reds to explode with color.
  3. A shade more green might be nice. But in my limited test just a single green XR-E at 1000mA was overpowering. WAY too much green. But if there were a way to add a little "pinch", I'd do it.
So honestly, what I'm running now is adequate. And I'm an ex-Radium guy. Could it be better? Of course. Always can. But it looks pretty good now (and I'm pretty picky). So I'm happy to wait for the best additional colors to be figured out in threads like this before I make any more changes.

Sorry for too many words. I hate to leave out important detail when it could be critical to people's decisions.

Hope that helps. :)



PS - Sorry. I've got to add... I was not "satisfied" with my Radium either. Thought that it too, had room for improvement. That's why I had the actinics with it. But IMO the right combo of supplemental T5's was what it really needed.
 
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Great summary Scolley.
For those that are duanted by the 40 odd pages and have a fear of DIY, this thread is probably not for you. The info contained is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to building a fixture.
No, building a LED fixture is not diffucult, but it takes some skill and understanding of the different components and the ways in which they interact.
Keep reading if you decide to build a fixture and be prepared for future tweaks and a possible failure.
I used the information on colour asthetics, from this and other articles, and have experimented to get the T5 supplimented MH look that I was after. The corals have not shown adverse reactions and I'm happy for now.
If you go DIY then you need to embrace the concept and come up with something more than the given standard that everybody else uses. It's a good starting point but every situation is going to be different. There are simply too many variables.

LED reefing for over three years now. Supplimenting coloured leds for over two years. I wouldn't use anything else now.
 
I'm currently running the Bridgelux 48x3 led's. I am new to this so I can't answer how they compare, but from my understanding, after reading the first five or so pages from this thread is the led's I have are not putting out a wider spectrum of light so I am looking at adding some T5's to give more color. Has anyone gone this route? If so, any advice they can give. I have a 29 gal that I am going to stock with some sps.
 
Wow! Your very first RC post! IMO whether or not you should do that DIY depends on whether you want concrete, community consensus on LED emitter/color combinations. If you are waiting on that, then IMO you should get those power sucking metal crockpots. There is no consensus yet, and it may be quite a while before such occurs. Even then, individual taste will keep the picture muddled. I offer the question "Which T5's should I get to make my corals look their best?" Good luck with finding an answer to that. And we are nowhere near as advanced with LED color mixing as the T5 community.

But that does not mean that you can't get good color rendition with LEDs. I wish you could see my tank. But you've got to read the guidance here, and determine who's advice to trust. But it IS possible. Easily.

The one thing I hope has been cleared up since this thread was started... that the "standard" set of 1 or 2 Royal Blues to every 1 Cool White was just wrong. IMO it looks like crap. But there is guidance here that can help you come up with an all LED setup that looks pretty d*mn good IMO. And mine replaced a MH Radium on a nice ballast.

Still, it appears that it's going to be a little while before our knowledge can be distilled to a hand full of rules of thumb, with easy adjustments to make based on color preference. But if people keep sharing their honest findings, we'll get there. :thumbsup:

PS - one problem that really complicates this process is that while getting accurate color rendition in photographs of reef tanks has always been challenging, it's a BEAR with LEDs. And when you can't trust the pics, how can you know who to trust? And I suspect whatever it is that makes LEDs so hard to photograph under accurately is the nature of the beast, and won't be changing anytime soon. But if you live anywhere near Fairfield county Connecticut, you're welcome to come see mine.

Thank you for the reply. I dint mean to come off sounding rude or anything. I know there are many of you out there who have worked your asses off to get us the information that you have shared and I really appreciate it. Thank you!!!

I guess what I was hoping for in all this reading was just a simple failsafe color ratio that would be satisfactory for the average reefer. I'm not too picky about the color pop as long as it's not completely shitty.

Could someone possibly give a generic color ratio that will cover the main wavelengths to give maybe not the very very best color but good enough for an average reefer not seeking the highest perfection?
 
I've been making a few changes back and forth and here are my final results.

1st I switched to Luxeon ES for the most part.

8 Luxeon Royal Blue
2 Luxeon WW 2,700K
2 Luxeon WW 4,000K
2 Cree XP-E Blue
2 Rapid LED Violet UV

Over a 14 gallon tank the colors seems to be accurate with a nice blend of coral pop.

It's really just about what you like to see. When I had an 20K HQI I always wanted more actinic.
 
It ain't your eyes. The problem is you're discussing this with other reefers who have invested a lot of money in LED lights and they sure as hell aren't going to admit there's something wrong. Dig through the forums and you'll see a lot of white heavy LED lights with terrible color while the builder is bragging about them. It's like a guy buying an expensive camera but can't take good pictures - good luck telling him he stinks.

The problem you are running into is the sh_tty spectrum produced by cool white LEDs, which are are heavy on blue and green spectra, but weak on anything else. They are designed to be bright, but not have good color. The excessive green of cool-white LEDs cancel out pinks, purples, red and other colors and then relies on actinic to pop colors. This is why we don't use daylight CFLs over our tanks, of which cool-white LEDs are similiar. Talk about a double standard. There is no scientific reason to use cool-white LEDs on your reef tank. Somebody started doing this in their basement and everybody copies and defends this. The growth energy in LEDs is in the far blue anyways. you have no idea how many reefers I run into that are complaining about this and went back to halides.

What I advise everybody who's going DIY LED is try different LED combos first on a small heat sink, and verify your favorite colors. My favorite combination is two royal blues combined with a single 4100-3500k neutral. This produces color more similiar to deep K halides and gets rid of the sterile white LED look. I proved it - I brought a couple of my LED lights to the local reef shop that runs XMs, Radiums, and Reeflux and we all compared. Everybody loved the LEDs with my warmer mix and hated the LED light with cool-whites and RBs. The warmer mix also looked close enough to the halides to be competitive. 1:1 RB/cool-white works good for a parking garage.

Replacing some of your cool-whites with neutrals will fix the problem to an extent. The problem is if you have a 1:1 mix on your tank your spacing will be off. Seriously, just replace a couple cool-whites with neutrals and put a piece of cardboard over the rest of the light to compare.

Hey, I been doing alot of reading about what types of LEDs to go with on my build. I'm going to be building a 48" fixture for my 72 Bowfront and will later duplicate it for a 120. I came across that thread and saw your posts. I totally agree with you and what you have to say about the cool white Cree LEDs. I'm interested in some of the other brands you were speaking of that can out do Cree in PAR as well as color. If you have any suggestions about a good brand or even specific color ratios of certain types of LEDs, on all ears. Based on what I read, I trust your opinion.
 
Luxeon royals/Cree royals?

Luxeon royals/Cree royals?

So I know that the Luxeons are better than the crees, but would it be worth while to use both in order to cover the 440-460nm range or would this not be noticeable? I am going to be using cool blues in which will cover from 470-480 either way.

Thanks,
Ryan
 
I think yes, it is better to cover as broad arange of wave lenghts between 400 and 500 nanometers as is possible. Flourescent and MH do a great job of broadly covering this range and so you get good coverage for all of the flourescent pigments in corals. The same should hold true with LED. Also the difference in efficiency between the two is not terribly large unless your building a huge array. an extra watt or two, if that, on most builds. the improved spectral coverage is well worth it.
 
I think yes, it is better to cover as broad arange of wave lenghts between 400 and 500 nanometers as is possible. Flourescent and MH do a great job of broadly covering this range and so you get good coverage for all of the flourescent pigments in corals. The same should hold true with LED. Also the difference in efficiency between the two is not terribly large unless your building a huge array. an extra watt or two, if that, on most builds. the improved spectral coverage is well worth it.

That was my original thought was to do both in order to cover the spectrum as much as possible. But if you look at the data sheet on page 14 http://www.philipslumileds.com/uploads/265/DS68-pdf
The royals and the blue are overlapping and the peak wavelength of 450-460nm from the cree royal blues would be filling in so little. Plus with the amount of LEDs I am using I would be saving about 30watts of power.
 
I'll copy my setup over from the DIY section.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

I too started off with just a CW:RB fixture. I quickly realized that I was missing a lot of color compared to my old MH/T5 setup. After tons of research, this is what I built.

24 Cree XT-E Royal Blues @1.3a 4.5w each
6 Cree XT-E Cool Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
3 Cree XT-E Neutral Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
3 Cree XT-E Warm Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
2 Luxeon ES Reds @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Greens @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Cyans @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Cool Blues @630mah 3w each
4 420nm SemiLeds Violets @630mah 3w each
3 60 Watt Meanwell ELN-60-48D @ 1.3a
1 30 Watt Meanwell ELN-30-48D @ 630mah

~180 watts total. 4 individual channels of Apex control

48 leds, 90 degree optics

Still playing with the color combo on the colored string, and may change a few more Cool Whites with Warm ones. Fixture looks outstanding.

IMG_20120722_035252.jpg
 
Let me know what I should change. should I add more of some take away any? There will be 4 of these across an 8 ft tank. LEDs will be on 2 inch space left to right and 4-6 inches front to back.
 

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~180 watts total. 4 individual channels...

With 9 different colors of LEDs, but only four channels, how are you distributing the LEDs colors across the channels? No matter what you do, some ratios are going to have to be fixed.

Be curious to know how you addressed that.
 
I use 2b 1 nw 4 cw I get about a 9500- 10500 type of color i run them all a 700ma. I am considering a t5 supllment actinic bulb to go with them. I like the shimmer and Hanging them a little higher doesn't wash out so bad. Having them right above the water makes it wash out and look like a led explosion and doesn't look great. I think the thing with led is to add more hang higher and max them out. The higher the power the higher Kelvin you get If could do any other combo i wouldn't change my light.
 
I'll copy my setup over from the DIY section.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

I too started off with just a CW:RB fixture. I quickly realized that I was missing a lot of color compared to my old MH/T5 setup. After tons of research, this is what I built.

24 Cree XT-E Royal Blues @1.3a 4.5w each
6 Cree XT-E Cool Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
3 Cree XT-E Neutral Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
3 Cree XT-E Warm Whites @1.3a 4.5w each
2 Luxeon ES Reds @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Greens @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Cyans @630mah 3w each
2 Luxeon ES Cool Blues @630mah 3w each
4 420nm SemiLeds Violets @630mah 3w each
3 60 Watt Meanwell ELN-60-48D @ 1.3a
1 30 Watt Meanwell ELN-30-48D @ 630mah

~180 watts total. 4 individual channels of Apex control

48 leds, 90 degree optics

Still playing with the color combo on the colored string, and may change a few more Cool Whites with Warm ones. Fixture looks outstanding.

Ahhh haaaa....

This is a thread I was looking for.
 
I'm going to be building a half-and-half fixture so I can get a feel for the pluses and minuses of 3W vs 20W Multi-chip LEDs. This will go over my personal 120 (2x2x4).

I've read through much of this thread in the past and try to keep up with it as well as the multichip thread but I was hoping for a little guidance on what would be a good mixture for such a setup. I will be using a DIY Driver with the ability to perform a lot of PWM dimming and I plan on wiring everything to an Arduino in such fashion that I have a lot of control over intensity and mixture. All that's left is choosing the LEDs themselves.

For the 3W half, I have decided to source from Steves for the 3W LEDs and go with the Philips Luxeon ES for the following:

RB http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-ROYAL-BLUE-3-Watt-LEDs-Philips-royal-blue.htm
CB http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-True-Cool-BLUE-3-Watt-LEDs-Luxeonn-ES-cool-blue.htm
CW http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-COOL-WHITE-3-Watt-LEDs-Luxeon-ES-white.htm
WW 2700K http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-Warm-WHITE-3-Watt-LEDs-2700K-Luxeon-ES-warm-2700.htm
WW 4000K http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-...-LEDs-4000K-Luxeon-ES-Neutral-White-4000K.htm
NW 5000K http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-...3-Watt-LEDs-5000K-Luxeon-ES-Neutral-White.htm
Green http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-True-Green-3-Watt-LEDs-Philips-True-Green.htm
Cyan-Turquoise http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-Cyan-Turquoise-3-Watt-LEDs-Luxeon-ES-Cyan-Turquoise.htm
Violet http://shop.stevesleds.com/3-Watt-True-Violet-LED-TrueViolet.htm

I'm not set on using all of these. They are all rated for 1000mA max except the Violet which are 700, but I may just run them all at 700 so that may not be an issue.

I'm thinking along the lines of a similar mixture to what bhazard451 has on his fixture. I also might arrange the LEDs very similarly, except separating the "pods" out on to individual heat sinks, each with a fan, and installing them on a frame on which they can be moved around if needed.

For the 20W half, I have decided to use multi-chips from AC-RC, choosing from the following:

20000K http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...106?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1220058a
16000K http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-16000K-...265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336f0c5cd1
14000K http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...691?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33703751bb
10000K http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...292?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3370374c44
Hybrid 20500K / 453nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33740eb3ae
445nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...540?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f11354d64
453nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...844?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336fb3f184
8000K (?) http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPISTAR-20W...845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3377a8a025
6500K http://www.ebay.com/itm/Epistar-20W...321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367f63341
3000-3200K http://www.ebay.com/itm/Epistar-20W...516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337394a50c
430nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-430nm-U...875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1aa87f33
420nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-420nm-U...932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15015e94
405nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-405nm-U...211?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1027cfd3
395nm http://www.ebay.com/itm/20W-395nm-U...628?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f17a25e74

These will go on individual heat sinks with individual fans so I can rearrange and control as much as possible

I wish to make as close to an apples-to-apples comparison as I can. Obviously I need to narrow down my selection criteria for the multi chips.

I won't need all of the UV chips, I'm guessing that it will be just the 420 or 430.

Probably could forget about the 8000K (esp since it's for "freshwater")

I figure that either I would want to go with a few of the hybrid chips, or a ratio of (2) 20000Ks to (1) 453nm. Probably the latter so I could play with levels.

Then I'm left with what to get for the 10000K, 14000K, and 16000K, and what for 3000K and 6500K. I guess that not having much in-person experience with LEDs it is difficult for me to envision the differences in these color temperatures, so I might just be getting a few of each. But can anyone steer me in one direction or the other so that I might save myself from wasting money?

Any other comments are welcome as well, as I'm sure there are a few things I'm not taking into consideration.
 
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