mag flake?

R

roons

In Memoriam
hi randy,id use the search but i cant....................

i use esv mag now, i was browsing and saw, you can get a 50lb bag for about $80? i bet this would last a long time, where can i get it and would you dose this like say kent trubo calcium? just dissolve in tank water then slowly add to tank..................

are there any impurities? i do see that the esv has other trace elements in it as well, im wondering if youd miss out on those going this route?
 
so 10 parts magnesium chloride hex with 1 part of epsom salts, what is it called when you buy it at home depo?

also, doing this 10/1 ratio eliminates the sulfate problem of using straight epsom correct?
 
MAG Flake.

From the second article:

Figure 3. One style of bag of magnesium chloride hexahydrate
made by the Dead Sea Works and sold at a supply store in the Boston area (Amesbury Industrial Supply). I also saw such a bag at my local Home Depot. Photo by Patrick Higgins.

image006.jpg
 
yeah i was thinking, they tend to get rid of seasonla stuff b4 the season is over, plus ive noticed some home depots have things while others dont........................where can i get it the cheapest online? or is that in the article as well
 
randy, isnt this the same stuff?

http://www.meltsnow.com/msds-mag-care-feeding-dust.htm


i contacted them to see where i could get it and this was their reply

John,

Our snow and ice grade MAG product cannot be used for aquariums. We make an aquarium grade magnesium chloride that is ultra-low ammonia and much more tightly controlled for other impurities problematic for aquariums. If you use snow and ice grade MgCl2 product in your aquarium you'll risk killing your fish from higher ammonia levels and impurities. You need to go to an aquarium supply for the correct product and balance but unless you're willing to risk seeing all your fish belly up, stay away from the snow and ice grade MAG Flakes for aquarium use.

Our low ammonia technical grade MgCl2 for aquariuims is available through Marine Enterprises in Baltimore, MD. Please contact them and they should be able to get you squared away with what you need. The smallest quantity of low ammonia aquarium grade MgCl2 we offer is 22 tons which is obviously going the wrong direction for your needs!

Rob
maybe im opening up a can of worms here but...............
 
That has been reported before, for this and similar products (like Southdown sand) and the supposition is that it may be a marketing license issue. Greg Hiller has tested it for ammonia and found it OK. The Dead Sea Works also reports ammonia levels for the product, and it is aceptably low if you boost magnesium by 100 ppm per day or less.

Here's the original post by Greg Hiller, reposted here since I don't think he will mind my reposting it:

http://216.235.242.50/forums/showpost.php?p=175707&postcount=71


"Okay....a bit of info....I contacted the guy from the company who distributes the MgCl2. The grade we got before was technical=industrial grade, the only grade they sell. It was stressed to me that this grade is NOT the low ammonia grade which they sell direct to the manufacturers of artificial salt mix. However, the specification sheet that I have from the first purchase listed the product as 115,000 ppm Mg, and 5 ppm N (which is likely ammonia). This is a spec, which means that it will be at this level of N, or below. At that level if you added enough of the stuff to boost your tank by 100 ppm Mg, you would only increase ammonia by 5 ppb (as in billion). 5 ppb = 0.005 ppm = (approximately) 0.005 mg/l ammonia (yes, I know I'm not taking into account the 3 for the atomic weight of the three hydrogens!).

The low ammonia grade that they sell is shipped only in cargo containers direct from Israel to the artificial salt manufacturers, so that is not possible to get a hold of.

Anyhow, the take home message is that for dosing a tank the technical/industrial grade should not have any significant amount of ammonia in it, which is what I found when I tested the material the first time around. When the stuff comes in this time I will test it again for ammonia. All the bags will be from the same lot (per the distributor), so one test will 'clear' them all. In the worst case, if it did have some ammonia in it, you would just have to add it slowly, and your biological filtration would take care of it without a problem.

...........

Remember that after this stuff comes it is HIGHLY recommended that within a few weeks you repack it into an old salt bucket. If not it will slowly become a sloppy mess. This stuff, even with shipping, will likley be about the price of ice melt stuff you pick up at the hardware store, so if in doubt purchase some more and maybe we can get up to 80 bags. You can always use it to melt snow....and you know the snow is coming!"
 
FWIW, you can always add a very small amount to the tank, and check for ammonia, and then slowly ramp it up and keep checking. Even with buying an ammonia kit, the savings will be large for most aquaria. :)

I've also not heard of anyone having any trouble with any of the Dead Sea Works magnesium chloride products. :)
 
well this guy doesnt want to hear it , i asked him 3 times where i can get it where i live , heres what i think will be my final email from him


John,

We offer many different grades of our MAG products, much in the way you'll find different grades of fuels from one company. For example, while Mobil gasoline is a brand, they offer different octanes and grades with various additives, even in the same fuels but some states require different emissions standards so the Mobil regular you get in Albany is not necessariy exactly the same chemical formula Mobil regular you get in say California . In this same way, we manufacture a variety of grades of Magnesium Chloride geared towards various markets based on purity, certifications, and particle type and size.

The flakes, per se, are not the product used for aquariums irrespective of what you might read from unqualified sources on the internet. I was unable to read the reef forums link you sent without registering for them and logging in which I did not do. Forums can be a great source of good information, but they can also spread mis-information. If someone in those forums wrote to use Dead Sea MAG Flakes for aquariums, they are providing incorrect information and we expressly state that the MAG Flakes are snow, ice, and dust control product only. In addition, I'm advising you against this practice and respectfully ask that you set the record clear to anyone that our low ammonia magnesium chloride prill is the ONLY product which we sell for use in artificial seawater.

You'll also find a flake source of anhydrous magnesium chloride out on the internet. This is a HIGHLY reactive form, will burn skin, and will generate tremendous amounts of heat on dilution. This is another example of how generic nomenclature is dangerously applied to chemical products when used by end users.

Our low ammonia magnesium chloride is not even available in a flake form; it is actually a prill or bead type form. So any reference to MAG Flakes for aquarium use is clearly incorrect. I'm not sure the value of the fish you have in your aquariums, but placing them all at risk by using the incorrect product may be a false economy.

Hope that this helps to clarify any confusion or misinformation you may have read. Lastly, I caution you to not act in reliance on any data about our products, except for the data which we provide to you to be sure you get the right product for the right application.

Thank you

Rob
 
randy , i hope you dont take offense to this series of events , im merely trying to get a handle on what exactly is the truth, i take no sides between you or this company................in fact, ive always looked up to your opinions on these forums, i just thought you should know about my findings............................i sent a link of your reefkeeping article to them and this was the reply i received.................

John,



Thanks for the link to the website that recommends using our snow, ice and dust control MAG FLAKES for aquarium use. Very interesting, but they say right there that the AUTHOR is making a judgment call based on a snapshot of analytical data from one batch, and when I looked at the data he published I can assure you that data IS NOT ON OUR MAG FLAKES FOR SNOW AND ICE CONTROL. That data is for technical grade magnesium chloride, not even the low ammonia grade. As I mentioned, we offer many ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œflavorsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and snow/ice MAG FLAKES is only one flavor.



Relying on that analytical information is faulty and incorrect. We do not track, test, and control the analytes (trace elements) shown in that information on our snow and ice grade so relying on that data is like taking a specification from Mobil Oil for high test low sulfur gasoline, and applying that information for regular gas. Obviously they are totally different products as Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve tried to communicate this dander throughout this email exchange.



The main difference between the snow and ice grade MgCl2 feedstock, and the aquarium grade magnesium chloride feedstock is testing and certification. Thereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s no question that some snow and ice product will meet the aquarium grade specs, but it is more coincidence than anything else. The issue here is risk. When you use MAG FLAKES packed for snow and ice control in your aquarium, you are taking on the risk of impurities. Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t forget that these products are extracts from the Dead Sea and it is not uncommon to get spikes of one mineral or another in feed liquors used to make these products. If we were to see a spike of ammonia in our snow and ice grade, it wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t really matter because in that application ammonia is not controlled, not tested, and for all intents and purposes is inconsequential. In aquariums it may be instant death for the tenants.



As I mentioned, using snow and ice grade will place you at risk for spikes of impurities (which are not routinely tested in every bag of snow and ice grade MAG FLAKES) where the low ammonia magnesium chloride technical grade is guaranteed to meet the specifications EVERY time in EVERY bag. Marine Enterprises in Baltimore stock and sell our low ammonia grade magnesium chloride prill for aquarium use.



Thanks again for the link to the reefkeeping.com internet forum data. We will likely have our technical people respond to that thread as reliable information about our products is of the utmost concern to us. If someone uses that formula and recommendation, and then their fish all die, we donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want our product being blamed for the problem even if it was the cause because that is an unauthorized use of the product.



Rob
 
well , heres another twist, he tells me the aquarium grade stuff they have is available here http://www.meisalt.com/index2.html


the same company that makes crystal seas bioassay, i started my tank with that salt and had nothing but problems as alot have............weird...............they dont have it listed for sale , i wonder if its bought by them in bulk to make their crappy salt..............
 
Well, feel free to accept or ignore his and my comments as you see fit.
Click to expand...


Well, let's not forget the reasons why we all started using Randy's two part to begin with. Our belief that (and it should have gone without mentioning when we bought into the theory) alternative products already available for other more common and therefore cheaper products, is likely safe for reef applications, irregardless of what manufacturers of related products sold for the reefing market say.

Now, I have personally found the Freeze Guard brand to contain enough contaminates to settle out of solution at the bottom of the container. After settling, I siphioned out the clear portion with small airline tubing, and tossed out the remainder. The next time I mix up the Mag solution, I'll rig a jug upsidown to reduce the waste.
 
I have always stated that for any of the materials in my DIY recipe there is a risk that the materials may not be exactly the same from batch to batch. The extensive testing that I did on Dowflake may say nothing about the product next week. That is the price that you pay for wanting a cheap grade. If that is too much risk for you, the choices would seem to be:

1. Test it yourself. Ammonia kits are cheap. Add a little to a batch of used tank water from a water change, and see if there is an ammonia spike.

2. If you use it, you can start slow and stop if you see any issues, and also partly rely on the fact that many people before you have used such products and not one has reported a problem to me. FWIW, the reason that I recommend 100 ppm Mg++ per day max rise is for this very issue concerning impurities. If you want, you can drop that daily rise by a factor of 10, and the ammonia concern becomes 10 times smaller.

3. Use a commercial supplement, such as B-ionic, and trust that the company is taking care of such issues.

Remember, we are not making a salt mix with this material. The additions are far lower than if one were using it for that purpose. So the concerns about impurities such as ammonia that disappear in a day or so are likewise smaller.
 
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I would rather buy the products you consider safe at alesser cost then buying somthing at 5 times the cost and not knowing whats in it anyways.Why should I pay all that money for something I can make on my own.So far I have had no problems with Randys formulas.In fact I am getting better growth rate then in the past.I see much improvement on the corals and my calerpa is growing out of control.
 
well , dont ask meltsnow. com where you can get the mag flakes , they will read you the riot act...............im gonna check home creepo today but im betting it isnt there
 
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