My old list of species to avoid and for the experienced

[technoshaman]

If you are redoing your list to repost might just want to put a quick code or note as to why these species are unsuitable - I have kept several with great success over the years that are in your 'advanced' list and there are different challenges with some fish:

Big three I've noted:

1. Poor collection / shipping (thinking of deepwater angels, anthias etc)

2. Obligate/Highly selective feeders (dragonets , filefish etc)


3. Tank size / layout (i.e. jawfish, garden eels, rays, most small sharks)


Interesting list though - a while back people had proposed an unsuitable species list with the idea to eventually cut down on their importation - no idea what the results were.


Just a few to consider adding to your near impossible list that I see imported all too often :

Dendronephyta corals - a.k.a. Cauliflower corals
Studeriotes - a.k.a. Christmas Tree Corals

Garibaldis - possible but need huge tank and serious chiller


Would add Heteractic magnifica to advanced hobbyist only - see these for sale far too often in really bad shape.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Garibaldi are one that I should certainly add. The Xmas tree and Dendronepthya are covered a bit in the first line under the inverts but I should certainly make a more special note as they are some of the more common species that are for sale that just shouldn't be. The list will get better, I just need the time and motivation to make it better. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[robwsup]

The list looks great. Are you sure about the Kole tang though? IME they are one of the easier tangs to keep. They are also coprophagous, which is a nice plus.

 

[Peter Eichler]

The list looks great. Are you sure about the Kole tang though? IME they are one of the easier tangs to keep. They are also coprophagous, which is a nice plus.

They are there because IME they are some of the most ich prone of all the fish commonly kept in aquariums. Once they get past the first few weeks they are very hardy, but prior to that I find them to be ich magnets.

 

[robwsup]

I can see that.

 

[Wee Man]

I have kept frogfish for about a year now and no they are not venemous they just look like it. infact there is a real nice thread going under the reef discussion forum all about them you guys should stop in its pretty interesting.

BTW an angler fish is the same thing as a frogfish

 

[Peter Eichler]

A little bump to serve as motivation to start working on the list again... Still open for suggestions.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[mikefish]

Well, after another year my Moorish Idol is now 18 mos. in captivity. Still fat, still growing. But I must be an incredibly skilled reef keeper and he will die any day now regardless.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Well, after another year my Moorish Idol is now 18 mos. in captivity. Still fat, still growing. But I must be an incredibly skilled reef keeper and he will die any day now regardless.

Good to hear he's doing well and hopefully it continues that way. I think a big part of it he has a very large tank with lots of little bits to pick at from the liverock and corals. Sadly for every story like yours there are propably thousands or Moorish Idols that don't make it past their first year of life in captivity

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

There are several people here on RC who have MI's that are over a year old.
Also I have had 4 long nose hawk fish and I have never had one jump out of the tank nor have I ever heard of one jumping out of a tank.
I've also kept a clown gobie years ago with no problems. He lived for several years in the reef tank before I got rid of the tank.
Same with the mandrin dragonetts. A lot of people are keeping them and some are even breeding them.
I also beleive that garabaldi's are illegal to collect. I think the only place they are found is off the coast of Calif.

Maybe it's time to do a serious update to your list and maybe do some research on the species before posting a list such as this.

 

[Peter Eichler]

There are several people here on RC who have MI's that are over a year old.
Also I have had 4 long nose hawk fish and I have never had one jump out of the tank nor have I ever heard of one jumping out of a tank.
I've also kept a clown gobie years ago with no problems. He lived for several years in the reef tank before I got rid of the tank.
Same with the mandrin dragonetts. A lot of people are keeping them and some are even breeding them.
I also beleive that garabaldi's are illegal to collect. I think the only place they are found is off the coast of Calif.

Maybe it's time to do a serious update to your list and maybe do some research on the species before posting a list such as this.

If you had read the post you would realize that once Humdrop/Clow gobies make it past their first couple weeks they seem to do fine. However I've seen huge amounts of them die off after importation, often well over 50%. If that a price you're willing to pay to keep them in your aquarium, because it's not one I am.

Same goes for the Moorish Idol, when I owned my own fishfood company I had one that lived for over 2 years, big freaking deal I say. The amount of them that actually live that long is incredibly small, I've seen how they fare on the wholesale end, at the LFS, and then in the home aquarium. We should be ashamed as a hobby that this fish is even still available to us. Sure some of us can give them a fighting chance but in general the people that buy them are just looking at them as a disposable decoration.

I've seen and heard of dozens of longnosed hawks jumping from aquariums. I'm not saying people shouldn't keep them in the least since they're quite hardy, just saying that people should be aware that they're known to jump and should take precautions. Could my experiences be a freak occurence, I suppose... But when you say you've had 4 and none of them have jumped doesn't make me inclined to not caution people that they can and are known to jump. After seeing many thousands of fish come through wholesalers and the LFS the two that I find are the best escape artists are Longnose hawkfish and Tilefish, I've seen any other fish dried up on the floor like I have those two.

As for the Mandarins, they're under the heading of best left for experienced hobbyists. I don't really know many people that would disagree with that... They usually require live food when newly introduced to captivity and often only thrive where there is live rock present. They also react poorly to disease treatments and I don't know of many newer hobbyists that don't somehow manage to get some sort of parasite outbreak in their aquarium. I simply don't see it as a fish that any beginner should have unless they start out with a larger reef aquarium and understand the dietary requirements. I all too often see it as a fish that people new to the hobby add the their tanks because of how odd and beautiful they are but have no idea that they can't just throw some frozen brine in a tank and expect it to live. I always had wonderful luck with Madarins, but they were in 75+ gallon reef tanks and they were fed live food early on in their captivity.

 

[GW Shark]

Sharks should be moved to the "need very large tank" category. Most small/medium sharks are relatively easy to keep given the proper space, sufficient filtration, and good water quality.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Sharks should be moved to the "need very large tank" category. Most small/medium sharks are relatively easy to keep given the proper space, sufficient filtration, and good water quality.

I see your point, but what home aquarist has an aquarium large enough to do it. I'd venture to say that even a 700 gallon tank isn't going to be enough for all but a few species of shark. But I will move it to the other section and make a special note. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ike

 

[mikefish]

Perhaps it's inflammatory to say this, but I am becoming of the opinion that this is a pointless thread. No not because of the MI still being on it, but because of the reasoning behind most of the fish being on it. You think that a lot of Moorish Idols die for every one that lives in captivity? Think about blue damsels, just as an example. Poor little beginners fish. Ever seen a dealer's tank full of them? How many do you think live to an "acceptable" age, whatever that is? Even if the percentage of "success" is higher than with MI's, which I doubt given who buys them, on a numerical basis I'm guessing many times more of them die in tanks. Are they less important than MIs?

But if you've gotten this far, my real point is that ALL fish should come with some sort of disclaimer. This list, for the most part, just arbitrarily picks fish with perhaps some special requirements, like size or type of tank, need for a cover, whatever, and says they shouldn't be kept. Heck, even jellyfish can be kept with the right kind of setup. And the right kind of setup is needed for damsels too, just because it's a more common 'baseline' setup, doesn't mean that plenty of beginners can't meet the needs.

It would be far more useful to put together this list of fish giving their "special" care requirements. But then you would have the basis for a nice book on fishkeeping.

That's it. Rant off.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I'm in agreement with Mikefish here.
I actually participated in a thread here on RC about MI's and finally got a wholesaler to admit that he had more blue tangs die in his tanks than MI's. Even though the tangs are imported on a daily basis and are seen as easy fish to keep, there are more of them dying in the wholesalers tanks than MI's. Why? who knows.
But his response was that he knows they will die in a customers tank. Similar to what you are saying. Dosen't make sense to me unless you are tracking each and every MI you sell to know it's outcome.
There are several people here on RC who have kept them longer than 2 years. As well, there IS a wholesaler who has been keeping them and doing research on them for the past 10 years. I'm not saying they are easy to keep as they need avery varied diet to survive but to blatley throw out that they should be left in the reef is absured, unless you want to throw everythging else back in the reef and just look at pic's.
If you ever spend time diving, you will see a lot of MI's out in the wild. Some fish just have special needs more so than others. As with ANY selection of animals you wish to keep, you should do your research first and RC is a good place to start.

 

[Peter Eichler]

I don't totally disagree with what you guys are saying. A lot of what you're saying sums up why this hobby often disappoints me and makes me feel guilty. That was a large part of the initial motivation for this list.

Do multiples of Blue tangs die an early death in the hands of aquarists, retailers, and wholesalers, absolutely. But give them a decent environment and they can thrive, at the same time do the same for a Moorish Idol and they more often than not die from slow starvation and/or other mysterious factors.

Keep in mind this was supposed to be a list for beginner to intermediate aquarists. It would be better if it listed the specifics of each species mentioned, however I wanted something that could be used as a quick reference and thrown in a purse or wallet. I was often frustrated when I went to the LFS and some guy was selling a Manadrin to a customer for their 30 gallon tank full of dead coral skeletons and damsels, or I'd see beautiful nonphotosynthetic corals lined up one after another knowing full well they were going to someone that hadn't the slightest clue what they were getting themselves in to. That was another part of my motivation.

The list I admit is in need of some organization and is a bit dated, I started it on aqualink some years ago, then it was published in a couple newsletters and some aquarists and even fish stores were using it. It's certainly not perfect, but my hope was that it might keep someone from buying that fish they were getting bad advice on from their LFS, or maybe the LFS would get some pressure from their customers if they were being irresponsible with their buying. It ended yp here because I wanted to be able to finish it off and get some more input on it. While I may have disagreed with some of the advice I've received, that by no means makes it unappreciated.

Perhaps you think this is a pointless thread, but my feeling is that if it keeps just one or two inexperienced hobbyists from buying a fish they are probably incapable of keeping alive then I think it has more of a purpose than many of the threads on these forums.
I know for fact that it's done that from responses I've gotten in the past and I hope it continues to do that.

The sad thing to me is that even on this site which is filled with a plethora of information and advanced aqaurists threads like "I just bought this, what is it and how do I care for it?" type of threads are still very common. It's also sad that this section of the forums isn't very popular, it seems many people could care less about the ethics of the hobby and simply look at their aquariums as a neat decoration. Then on top of that you've got some more advanced aquarists that insist on buying difficult species to challenge themselves, sometimes it's a good thing but often I just want to scream just leave it in the freaking ocean. I know I did it years back, I bought Goniopora, various nonphotosynthetic soft corals, difficult fish, etc; It was stupid and egotistical of me.

Since you brought up diving... I have been diving but have a friend that makes several trips around the world to go diving and makes it to Hawaii at least once a year. He also keep aquariums and has commented to me how sparse many of the fish around Hawaii and other places are getting compared to years ago. We have a very destructive hobby here, if you've ever been to the Phillipines you can see one of the worst examples of how destructive it can be. In recent years we've made some nice strides to be more responsible but this hobby still has a long long way to go before it's no longer considered destructive to the natural environment. I'm just trying to do something to help, even if it is considered "pointless" by some.

 

[Paul B]

OK here is my thoughts on this. The list of hard to keep fish is accurate, should everyone get a moorish Idol? no. Are mandarins hard to keep? it depends. Do long nose hawkfish jump? I had many and they all died that way. But then again what people fail to realize is that "all" the fish that we buy for whatever reason die in our tanks. Some sooner some later but unless you are breeding fish to release back into the ocean (and I do not think anyone is) we are all killing fish. Is this a bad thing? Maybe.
But we do not kill fish on purpose because first they are expensive and second that would be stupid. I think that in time most fish will be bred commercially and few will have to be collected. I myself keep Idols, mandarins, hawkfish, seahorses and many others but I no longer keep fish just to have a "pet". I experiment to try to find out the secret. Anyway, just my thoughts.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Peter Eichler]

Fish To Be Avoided: (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)

Moorish idol
Regal angelfish
Rock beauty
Bicolor angelfish
Genicanthus sp. angelfish
Centropyge multifasciatus
Holacanthus venusta
Most Anthias
Clown tang
Clown sweetlips
Pinatus and tiger teira batfish (batavianus)
Orange spotted filefish
Most butterlyfish (except those listed below)
Ribbon eels
Cleaner wrasses
Twinspot goby
Sleeper gobies (Valenciennea sp.)
Tilefish
Rays
Bicolor parrotfish
Princess parrotfish
Blue and Red parrotfish
Grunts
Anampses spp. wrasses
Leopard wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.)
Pseodojuloides wrasses
Tassled filefish
Jacks
Drums
Trumpetfish
Remoras
Chambered nautilus


Fish Best Left For Experienced Hobbyists:
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks or threatened species)

Catalina gobies (coldwater species)
Garibaldi (coldwater species and protected)
Trunkfish (box and cowfish)
Clown and Gumdrop gobies (once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Radiata lionfish
Fu manchu lion
Dwarf zebra lion
Anglerfish
Mandarin dragonet (requires large amounts of live food typically)
Most large angels (require large aquariums and often specialized feeders)
Lamarckââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s angelfish
Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone)
Kole tang (ich prone)
Chevron tang (ich prone)
Most other tangs except Zebrasoma and Naso sp. (ich prone)
All butterflyfish (except vagabond, longnose, Heniochus, golden, pebbled, Kleinââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s, lemon, auriga and racoon, which need large tanks)
Sea horses
Seadragons
Pipefish
All anthias
Blue chromis
Wild-caught Bangaii cardinalfish (threatened)
Longnose hawkfish (jumper)
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Porcupine pufferfish (very disease prone)
Fairy wrasses (Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus spp.)
Dragon wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Red sailfin blenny
Striped blenny
Scooter blenny
Sandhopper
Jawfish (require tanks set up with their needs in mind)
Undulated triggerfish (unless housed by themselves)
Convict tang (very aggressive)

Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more):

Sharks (require much larger than 200 gal., Nurse sharks can grow to 14ft. long!)
Most groupers (especially panther groupers)
Parrotfish
Snappers
Naso spp. tangs (however, they can be slow growers)
Moray eels (large species)
Garden eels
Soldierfish
Orbi and spade batfish
Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of this one)
Flounder

Venomous Species:

Stonefish (can be deadly)
Lionfish
Rabbitfish
Scorpionfish
Coral cats
Bluering Octopus (can be deadly)

Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts:

Non-photosynyhetic corals and gorgonids (sun polyps, carnation, devils hand, etc.)
Christmas tree worms
Goniopora sp.
Feather stars
Basket stars
Crown of thorns (duh )
Linkia stars (poor survival until acclimated)
Many wild small-polyped scleractinian corals that are not frags
Sea apples
Sea pens
Giant Xenia
Sea slugs and nudibranchs (very few exceptions)
Flame scallop
Anemones (see below)
Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and should be placed in specialty tanks)
Harlequin, clown shrimp (specialty diets)
Camel, mechanical shrimp (not for reefs)
Elegance coral (recent poor survival)
Red serpent starfish
Tubipora musica (organ pipe, usually hacked off from a larger colony)











Made a few quick changes, if a moderator happens across this please replace the original list with this should you be so inclined.

 

[DitchPlains2]

Personally

Personally

And take a look at the tank I used to have! I have since upgraded to a much larger system, in fact 2 larger systems. I bought friggin Nemo, not from the movie, but I was online, becuase I am an online junkie. I do scuba, I do snorkel, I have been surfing for nearly 22 years. I participated in the Surfrider's foundation to help coserve my local beaches on Long Island, by helping map certain beaches, and tide areas. I also participated in kepping the Piping Plover(rare sea bird), during a few summers, whilst rich ***** Hamptoners drove their cars and walked straight through our guarded off Plover sites. Anyways, not tooting my horn by no means, just saying I am no schmuck! I researched my Nano Cube, and I bought two SI Perculas. Some Soft corals, etc... I Have lost and it goes:
Yellow Fiji Leather (parasite) if I new it was a yellow NUDI then as I do now, would have saved it.
Green Leather, no clue, cam half dead from Etropicals
Torch, I killed this, high ph spike I incorrectly mixed Kents Superbuffer
RBTA's 2 of them, duhno I know their supposed to be hardy, but they would just move to the back and refuse to eat ( I had 96 watts pc) plenty for that species.
2 Chromis died during rock n sand transfer.

BTW not all in my nano also bought a 18g via aqua

1 Bali Slimer, same PH Spike.
Current Tanks 60g cube in process of construction (2 Phoniex 14k 150des)
1 18 g via aqua,
1 12g nano cube, houses crabs, cbs, and rock

My point for all my stupid info is this:

I have killed a good number of reef creatures since starting this hobby, being a surfer, and a part time conservationist, I have to say I feel guilty, and ****ty about it. It was however, all part of the learning process. I believe this list, and websites like this, will help save future loses. Yeah, I know eventually everything will die, but isn't it better to keep 1 fish for 2-5 years, then buy a new fish every couple of months because your ignorant on what it takes to keep it, and its survivability rate.

I loved Fenner's book The Conscienscious Marien Aquarist
really opened my eyes.

Diving this past Jan in Carribean also helped a lot, seeing these fish in theri natural enviroment will awaken your eyes to what it means to give these fish a decent home. Bigger is better fellas...lol ok m2 ****ty 2 cents. Thanks for the list, sure others will thank you too. :fish2:

 

[spamin76]

Four fish not on the list, but ones I think should be are those who require huge aquariums -> Queen Triggerfish
And those who should only be kept by advanced aquarists -> Undulate Triggers, Clown Triggers, Blueline Triggers.

You are probably asking why I am suggesting such hardy, easy to keep fish
And my answer is this - few aquarists are prepared to deal with the aggressive tendencies of these fish long term. Most aquarists can buy a 2" baby clown trigger and let it grow, but once it hits 8" they don't want it any more - the fish is at this point too big and too aggressive. Most of these fish are best kept by themselves in a tank all their own and more often than not this will just not happen. People buy these fish thinking that they are suitable for communities, and once the murderous rampage begins people are either unable or unwilling to keep the fish. They tend to pawn them off and take them back to the store(which doesn't want them - because who really wants a 2' trigger fish that needs to be kept by itself and will kill any tank mate?).

Unless you are prepared to offer a triggerfish a tank of it's own, particularly one of these guys above, you should not buy them - the chance of them killing tank mates is too high, especially in the average size tank these are all kept in, which in most cases is debatably too small.