billblass_44
New member
how about red groupers? what can anyone tell me about them?
My old list of species to avoid and for the experienced
- Thread starter Peter Eichler
- Start date
technoshaman
Reefer
billblass_44 said:
Do you have a species name? I can think of c. miniatus - Miniatus grouper and vtail grouper are both reddish. Vtail gets to over a foot, forget what miniatus grows too. Both bulletproof fish like most groupers but they get realtively large. Consider what previous poster said about large triggers.
Had a vtail a while back, awesome fish.
xnikki118x
New member
Peter,
I think your list is very informative. I don't think this topic is pointless; I view it as a very straightforward, basic guide for beginning and intermediate aquarists.
Everyone has valid suggestions, especially about adding more detail ie why the particular fish should be avoided. But I like the generality of your first list--it's a very basic guide, a quick reference, and I believe it will help guide people in making more responsible decisions as to what they should try to keep in their tanks.
I believe you should make a much more detailed list, including the arguments (for lack of a better word) that long-nosed hawkfish are very hardy fish, but they are known to be jumpers and so just make sure the tank has a tight-fitting lid; or that certain species of lions are venemous but can be successfully kept as long as you don't touch them, and if you do, it'll be like a bee sting; or that most--if not all--triggerfish can be kept with tankmates as younger speciments but will absolutely, without a doubt need their own tanks as they grow and thus should be avoided.
My long-winded point?
Just make two lists! Your extremely generalized one, and one explaining in detail the reasons for the generalized one. The first one serves your purpose greatly of being used as a quick reference or something to keep in your purse or wallet to refer to, while the extended version could be accessed to answer more direct questions about the actual specifications and "why shouldn't I keep this fish?" questions.
I'd be more than willing to help you if you think this is a good idea. I'm definitely not your expert by any means--more of a low-level intermediate at best--but I can probably help put things into perspective so people will get it. [This huma huma is adorable when it's young, and none of your other fish will fit into its mouth, YET, but it will absoluetely need a 200 gallon tank as an adult with NO other tankmates. If you like fish with teeth and you want to keep it in a reef, consider a royal gramma basslet.] Hah...like I said, I don't have a fantastic array of knowledge and even less experience, but maybe I can help with something.
In any event, I think you have a great idea here and I think you should stick to it. Whether others think so it not, it will help (and has helped!) many people with their livestocking decisions.
-- Nikki
I think your list is very informative. I don't think this topic is pointless; I view it as a very straightforward, basic guide for beginning and intermediate aquarists.
Everyone has valid suggestions, especially about adding more detail ie why the particular fish should be avoided. But I like the generality of your first list--it's a very basic guide, a quick reference, and I believe it will help guide people in making more responsible decisions as to what they should try to keep in their tanks.
I believe you should make a much more detailed list, including the arguments (for lack of a better word) that long-nosed hawkfish are very hardy fish, but they are known to be jumpers and so just make sure the tank has a tight-fitting lid; or that certain species of lions are venemous but can be successfully kept as long as you don't touch them, and if you do, it'll be like a bee sting; or that most--if not all--triggerfish can be kept with tankmates as younger speciments but will absolutely, without a doubt need their own tanks as they grow and thus should be avoided.
My long-winded point?
Just make two lists! Your extremely generalized one, and one explaining in detail the reasons for the generalized one. The first one serves your purpose greatly of being used as a quick reference or something to keep in your purse or wallet to refer to, while the extended version could be accessed to answer more direct questions about the actual specifications and "why shouldn't I keep this fish?" questions.I'd be more than willing to help you if you think this is a good idea. I'm definitely not your expert by any means--more of a low-level intermediate at best--but I can probably help put things into perspective so people will get it. [This huma huma is adorable when it's young, and none of your other fish will fit into its mouth, YET, but it will absoluetely need a 200 gallon tank as an adult with NO other tankmates. If you like fish with teeth and you want to keep it in a reef, consider a royal gramma basslet.] Hah...like I said, I don't have a fantastic array of knowledge and even less experience, but maybe I can help with something.
In any event, I think you have a great idea here and I think you should stick to it. Whether others think so it not, it will help (and has helped!) many people with their livestocking decisions.
-- Nikki
spamin76
Premium Member
I am a bit frustrated I guess because many triggerfish make it on the list of the first fish an new hobbyest should keep - but such lists generally fail to mention how big they get, how aggressive certain ones can get and such. I don't think a trigger belongs on the first fish list like damsels and such probably do.
I hate seeing the oh, my clown trigger is too big and mean now, time to take him back to the store...
happens way too often.
I hate seeing the oh, my clown trigger is too big and mean now, time to take him back to the store...
happens way too often.
xnikki118x
New member
That's a very valid thing to be frustrated about, spamin, IMO. I think that's why we should help to develop lists like this one, and circulate them as much as possible. The more people who are aware that they shouldn't get a clown trigger in the first place, the better!
spamin76
Premium Member
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a clown trigger... if you know you are more than likely buying a time bomb that will most likely need to be kept by himself in a fairly large tank. If you are ok having a 180+ with just a CT in it, go for it... but most people are not willing to do that. Personally I am ok having a big single trigger tank, especially for a Titan or a Queen Trigger... but I don't think most of the people that buy them are.
coralGoodie
New member
How about Coral Beauty? would you recommend this in a reef tank?
billblass_44
New member
the red grouper I'm asking about is part of the sea bass family it is not a V-tail or what I see as the traditional hobbist red grouper I bought this thing from a local pet shop and was wondering if anyone has had one and if they could tell me a little about it
coralGoodie said:
They, like any pygmy angel, they seem to be hit or miss. I've had three of them in my reefs with no porblems. I'm on # 3 right now and so far so good. I got him from a fellow RC member who has had him for 3 years with no problems. My last one died unexpectidly after 5 years but I never had a problem with him either.
EmergencyDpt
New member
Thanks for your list. I have to say that I saw a multi banded pipfish today in a lfs and fell in love with it. Will your list keep me from getting one? No. However it does give me pause to think whether or not my tank is ready for one NOW. It's people like you that really help aquarists become more responsible.
Ok, so can you give me some tips on keeping this beauty?
Ok, so can you give me some tips on keeping this beauty?
Dell'Oro
New member
I would disagree with a couple of things on your list, but still think it is a valuable resource and very thought provoking as well.
Bicolour Angels - Can be hard to get feeding but once they do are very hardy - mine was taught to eat prepared foods by a tang added a couple of months after it! Until that time it only ate from the rockwork of my 90g.
Sun Corals - Yes they need to be fed, but as long as you are prepared to do so, I don't see why they would be inappropriate for beginners.
Goniopora - to write off the whole species is a bit excessive IMO. The golfball types yes, however the encrusting types seem to do well long term in my and my associates experience.
The goni debate is one that I find interesting - yes most of the golfball types will not survive past about 18 months, but most beginners will have about the same success. There are far more rare corals that a beginner is likely to kill well short of that mark. What's better for a beginner to purchase, a common coral that will in all likelyhood last a fairly long time, or a rarer coral that they may well cause to die in very short order? There is certainly no black and white there.... and I'm still not sure where I stand on it either.
cheers
Paul
Bicolour Angels - Can be hard to get feeding but once they do are very hardy - mine was taught to eat prepared foods by a tang added a couple of months after it! Until that time it only ate from the rockwork of my 90g.
Sun Corals - Yes they need to be fed, but as long as you are prepared to do so, I don't see why they would be inappropriate for beginners.
Goniopora - to write off the whole species is a bit excessive IMO. The golfball types yes, however the encrusting types seem to do well long term in my and my associates experience.
The goni debate is one that I find interesting - yes most of the golfball types will not survive past about 18 months, but most beginners will have about the same success. There are far more rare corals that a beginner is likely to kill well short of that mark. What's better for a beginner to purchase, a common coral that will in all likelyhood last a fairly long time, or a rarer coral that they may well cause to die in very short order? There is certainly no black and white there.... and I'm still not sure where I stand on it either.
cheers
Paul
bwirth1999
New member
Well......lets see whats left...........................well apparently...unless your a expert...you can only have Damsels.........no inverts...and..........ummmm......F*ck it...just buy the windows xp screensaver...
ratherbediving
New member
I was surprised to see blue chromis on the list. Are blue chromis less hardy then the green? That was a fish I was considering....
In all seriousness-- I think there might be some benefit for producing lists of fish that ARE recommended for beginners/ intermediate reefkeepers. I think the list would be a lot smaller.
In all seriousness-- I think there might be some benefit for producing lists of fish that ARE recommended for beginners/ intermediate reefkeepers. I think the list would be a lot smaller.
aguabeast
In Memoriam
Not a direct comment on an animal appearing on the list, but I think its important to keep in mind what it means to 'successfully' keep an animal. Im reminded of a particular customer of mine who insists that large angelfish cannot be kept in captivity for long periods of time, and that the longest hes ever owned one was about 2.5 years. He truely thinks that 2 years is a very successful thing. On the other hand, my store has an Annularis/Blue Ring Angelfish that weve had since 1987- and she was a full adult when she came in. I personally consider That to be successful.
Its interesting that so many non-aquatic animals can be kept alive and healthy in captivity much longer than their wild counterparts, but with fish and corals their lifespans seem to be much much shorter than they naturally would be left in the wild.
All that aside, Ive been very successful in keeping: Bicolor Angelfish (though this success is recent within the last couple years), Valencianna sp., Genicanthus lamark/melaspinosus/watanabei, Anthis species including squamipinnis, dispar, and bartlett's, trumpetfish, and anglers/sargassums/frogfish.
Regal angelfish from the Red Sea, rather than the pacific/indonesia, seem to adapt rather well. Imperator angels have become nearly impossible to keep over the last 2-3 years. Bangaii/Borneo Cardinals seem to be getting more difficult except for the captive bred ones.
Ive never had issues with grunts or twinspot gobies.
Anywho, this is my personal experience- anyone/everyone elses could be different.
Its interesting that so many non-aquatic animals can be kept alive and healthy in captivity much longer than their wild counterparts, but with fish and corals their lifespans seem to be much much shorter than they naturally would be left in the wild.
All that aside, Ive been very successful in keeping: Bicolor Angelfish (though this success is recent within the last couple years), Valencianna sp., Genicanthus lamark/melaspinosus/watanabei, Anthis species including squamipinnis, dispar, and bartlett's, trumpetfish, and anglers/sargassums/frogfish.
Regal angelfish from the Red Sea, rather than the pacific/indonesia, seem to adapt rather well. Imperator angels have become nearly impossible to keep over the last 2-3 years. Bangaii/Borneo Cardinals seem to be getting more difficult except for the captive bred ones.
Ive never had issues with grunts or twinspot gobies.
Anywho, this is my personal experience- anyone/everyone elses could be different.
TheyCallMeFishy
New member
I would agree with your list as a general list for avoidance. An "OK fish list" would come under much more scrutiny.
Kole tang (Ctenochaetus strigosus)- This was probably my fourth fish ever bought, and bought when I had about two months experience. At 3", it survived in my 50 gallon with no specialty feeding or any direct attention for that matter, until it grew nearly an inch, and was given back to a LFS to trade for a juvenille Zebrasoma Desjardinni(spelling) which died after three days.
Bottom line, these guys are everywhere and are generally hardy from any accounts I have heard or seen. They are known to nip at coral polyps from time to time.(though mine never did)
And the blue chromis, I have not had them for over six months like some say the sex changes and fighting will happen then, but they have perfect tankmates, aside from being stung by the RBTA.
So from my limited experience, these two guys are pretty hardy and easy to keep.
Kole tang (Ctenochaetus strigosus)- This was probably my fourth fish ever bought, and bought when I had about two months experience. At 3", it survived in my 50 gallon with no specialty feeding or any direct attention for that matter, until it grew nearly an inch, and was given back to a LFS to trade for a juvenille Zebrasoma Desjardinni(spelling) which died after three days.
Bottom line, these guys are everywhere and are generally hardy from any accounts I have heard or seen. They are known to nip at coral polyps from time to time.(though mine never did)
And the blue chromis, I have not had them for over six months like some say the sex changes and fighting will happen then, but they have perfect tankmates, aside from being stung by the RBTA.
So from my limited experience, these two guys are pretty hardy and easy to keep.
ratherbediving
New member
Don't get me wrong--- I appreciate the time spent by Peter Eichler
who put together this list, and others who have weighed in to help refine it.
For a lot of beginners, I think, it can be difficult to figure out which fish would be good companions in whatever size tank they have. Almost every fish out there has some caveat or drawback that would keep it from being the 'perfect' tankmate. It seems I read a lot of posts about how a particular fish is troublesome, but don't often read about fish that would be good in a small- medium tank. The list of fish that I feel would work okay in my tank (55 gallon) is really small.
who put together this list, and others who have weighed in to help refine it.
For a lot of beginners, I think, it can be difficult to figure out which fish would be good companions in whatever size tank they have. Almost every fish out there has some caveat or drawback that would keep it from being the 'perfect' tankmate. It seems I read a lot of posts about how a particular fish is troublesome, but don't often read about fish that would be good in a small- medium tank. The list of fish that I feel would work okay in my tank (55 gallon) is really small.
janakaybravo
New member
What about the blue or regal tang? IME they are ich prone, but would like to try again.
Peter Eichler
New member
Made some quick changes and I'm going to try to make some more changes and spruce it up a little this weekend I think I've only been working on this for the last 12 years. Sadly it hasn't changed a whole lot from the original list... I know, I'm a slacker
Fish To Be Avoided: (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)
Moorish idol
Regal angelfish (Red Sea Specimens tend to be hardier and more willing to accept prepared foods)
Rock beauty
Bicolor angelfish (Often caught with drugs and generally a poor feeder)
Centropyge multifasciatus
Holacanthus venusta
Most Anthias
Clown tang (VERY ich prone and a finicky eater, horrible survival rates, when they do live they can be quite mean)
Clown sweetlips
Pinatus and tiger teira batfish (batavianus)
Orange spotted filefish (specialized coral polyp feeder)
Most butterlyfish (except those listed below)
Ribbon eels (rarely eat in captivity)
Cleaner wrasses (specialized aparsite feeder, leave them in the ocean where they can do their job)
Twinspot goby
Sleeper gobies (Valenciennea sp.) (Often starve to death even when accepting prepared foods)
Tilefish (VERY timid and difficult to get to eat, also excellent carpet surfing)
Rays
Parrotfish (too large for most tanks and certainly not reef safe)
Grunts
Anampses spp. wrasses
Leopard wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.)
Pseodojuloides wrasses (very dificult to keep alive, they almost always die in transit so you don't see them very often if ever)
Tassled filefish
Jacks
Drums
Trumpetfish
Remoras
Chambered nautilus
Fish Best Left For Experienced Hobbyists:
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks or threatened species)
Genicanthus sp. angelfish (hardy once acclimated, but lots of problem specimens due to the depths they are usually caught at)
Catalina gobies (coldwater species)
Garibaldi (coldwater species and protected)
Trunkfish (box and cowfish) (most are rather sensitive and can release tocins when stresed or dying)
Clown and Gumdrop gobies (once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Radiata lionfish
Fu manchu lion
Dwarf zebra lion
Anglerfish
Mandarin dragonet (requires large amounts of live food typically which can be provided naturally in 50+ gal. tanks with a good amount of live rock)
Most large angels (require large aquariums and often specialized feeders)
Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone)
Ctenochaetus tangs (ich prone, some of the hardier tangs once established)
All butterflyfish (except vagabond, longnose, Heniochus, golden, pebbled, Klein's, Lemon, Auriga and Racoon, which need large tanks)
Sea horses
Seadragons
Pipefish
Anthias (require a good amount of swimming room, peaceful tankmates, and frequent feedings, often unhealthy and starving by the time they make it to dealers tanks)
Blue chromis (someone want to remind me why this is here?)
Longnose hawkfish (jumper)
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Porcupine pufferfish (very disease prone)
Fairy wrasses (Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus spp.)
Dragon wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Red sailfin blenny
Striped blenny
Scooter blenny
Sandhopper
Jawfish (require tanks set up with their needs in mind)
Undulated triggerfish (unless housed by themselves)
Convict tang (very aggressive)
Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more):
Sharks (require much larger than 200 gal., Nurse sharks can grow to 14ft. long!)
Most groupers (especially panther groupers)
Parrotfish
Snappers
Naso spp. tangs (however, they can be slow growers)
Moray eels (large species)
Garden eels
Soldierfish
Orbi and spade batfish
Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of this one)
Flounder
Venomous Species:
Stonefish (can be deadly)
Lionfish
Rabbitfish
Scorpionfish
Coral cats
Bluering Octopus (can be deadly)
Toadfish
Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts:
Non-photosynyhetic corals and Gorgonids (sun polyps, carnation, devils hand, etc.)
Christmas tree worms
Goniopora sp.
Feather stars
Basket stars
Crown of thorns (duh)
Linkia stars
Many wild small-polyped scleractinian corals that are not frags
Sea apples
Sea pens
Giant Xenia
Sea slugs and Nudibranchs (very few exceptions)
Flame scallop
Anemones (see below)
Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and usually should be placed in specialty tanks)
Harlequin, clown shrimp (specialty diets)
Camel, mechanical shrimp (Not reef safe but often sold as as such)
Elegance coral (recent poor survival)
Red serpent starfish
Tubipora musica (organ pipe, usually hacked off from a larger colony)
I think I've only been working on this for the last 12 years. Sadly it hasn't changed a whole lot from the original list... I know, I'm a slacker Fish To Be Avoided: (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)
Moorish idol
Regal angelfish (Red Sea Specimens tend to be hardier and more willing to accept prepared foods)
Rock beauty
Bicolor angelfish (Often caught with drugs and generally a poor feeder)
Centropyge multifasciatus
Holacanthus venusta
Most Anthias
Clown tang (VERY ich prone and a finicky eater, horrible survival rates, when they do live they can be quite mean)
Clown sweetlips
Pinatus and tiger teira batfish (batavianus)
Orange spotted filefish (specialized coral polyp feeder)
Most butterlyfish (except those listed below)
Ribbon eels (rarely eat in captivity)
Cleaner wrasses (specialized aparsite feeder, leave them in the ocean where they can do their job)
Twinspot goby
Sleeper gobies (Valenciennea sp.) (Often starve to death even when accepting prepared foods)
Tilefish (VERY timid and difficult to get to eat, also excellent carpet surfing)
Rays
Parrotfish (too large for most tanks and certainly not reef safe)
Grunts
Anampses spp. wrasses
Leopard wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.)
Pseodojuloides wrasses (very dificult to keep alive, they almost always die in transit so you don't see them very often if ever)
Tassled filefish
Jacks
Drums
Trumpetfish
Remoras
Chambered nautilus
Fish Best Left For Experienced Hobbyists:
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks or threatened species)
Genicanthus sp. angelfish (hardy once acclimated, but lots of problem specimens due to the depths they are usually caught at)
Catalina gobies (coldwater species)
Garibaldi (coldwater species and protected)
Trunkfish (box and cowfish) (most are rather sensitive and can release tocins when stresed or dying)
Clown and Gumdrop gobies (once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Radiata lionfish
Fu manchu lion
Dwarf zebra lion
Anglerfish
Mandarin dragonet (requires large amounts of live food typically which can be provided naturally in 50+ gal. tanks with a good amount of live rock)
Most large angels (require large aquariums and often specialized feeders)
Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone)
Ctenochaetus tangs (ich prone, some of the hardier tangs once established)
All butterflyfish (except vagabond, longnose, Heniochus, golden, pebbled, Klein's, Lemon, Auriga and Racoon, which need large tanks)
Sea horses
Seadragons
Pipefish
Anthias (require a good amount of swimming room, peaceful tankmates, and frequent feedings, often unhealthy and starving by the time they make it to dealers tanks)
Blue chromis (someone want to remind me why this is here?
)Longnose hawkfish (jumper)
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Porcupine pufferfish (very disease prone)
Fairy wrasses (Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus spp.)
Dragon wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Red sailfin blenny
Striped blenny
Scooter blenny
Sandhopper
Jawfish (require tanks set up with their needs in mind)
Undulated triggerfish (unless housed by themselves)
Convict tang (very aggressive)
Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more):
Sharks (require much larger than 200 gal., Nurse sharks can grow to 14ft. long!)
Most groupers (especially panther groupers)
Parrotfish
Snappers
Naso spp. tangs (however, they can be slow growers)
Moray eels (large species)
Garden eels
Soldierfish
Orbi and spade batfish
Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of this one)
Flounder
Venomous Species:
Stonefish (can be deadly)
Lionfish
Rabbitfish
Scorpionfish
Coral cats
Bluering Octopus (can be deadly)
Toadfish
Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts:
Non-photosynyhetic corals and Gorgonids (sun polyps, carnation, devils hand, etc.)
Christmas tree worms
Goniopora sp.
Feather stars
Basket stars
Crown of thorns (duh
)Linkia stars
Many wild small-polyped scleractinian corals that are not frags
Sea apples
Sea pens
Giant Xenia
Sea slugs and Nudibranchs (very few exceptions)
Flame scallop
Anemones (see below)
Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and usually should be placed in specialty tanks)
Harlequin, clown shrimp (specialty diets)
Camel, mechanical shrimp (Not reef safe but often sold as as such)
Elegance coral (recent poor survival)
Red serpent starfish
Tubipora musica (organ pipe, usually hacked off from a larger colony)
