Myka's 69 SPS Tank 2015

[Myka]

Only works just fine as in its sufficient?

Why are you sure dd was the problem if you used it with coralife?

I've also heard that doing a bunch of frags at the same time, regardless of brand, will cause problems. Also not mixing completely before putting it in the tank.

Sorry, that sentence was not clear. Let me try again: Using superglue by itself works fine. I'm fairly sure the DD was the problem because I used the Coralife 2 or 3 days after the DD. The DD did not harden - it was very old. I think that is the reason why it was a problem, not the amount I used.

Sorry to hear of your coral issues, could be that the combo of factors is the cause (low alk, light changes, adding carbon, increased additive dosing). In terms of your pH issues, do you have a fuge area, and if so, is it on a reverse light cycle? I've always worked under the assumption that this minimizes pH swings, but I've never actually measured pH.

There weren't really any significant changes going on in the tank other than it being very young at the time. As above, I'm pretty sure the issue was just that epoxy was very old (it didn't harden, even now it's still soft).

I can only speak from experience about the DD epoxy. In the 5+ years I've used it there was never a problem during or after. I've glue frags and colonies, even stuck frags with no plug. I've tried a number of other brands and they simply don't stick. I use the pink one, supposed to stick better than the grey.

I find the DD is terrible for sticking. The Brightwell Aquatics one sticks the best ime. I've used several sticks of DD over many years and I've never had a problem either. I've never had my corals react from epoxy - ever, until now.

 

[BigJohnny]

Sorry, that sentence was not clear. Let me try again: Using superglue by itself works fine. I'm fairly sure the DD was the problem because I used the Coralife 2 or 3 days after the DD. The DD did not harden - it was very old. I think that is the reason why it was a problem, not the amount I used.



There weren't really any significant changes going on in the tank other than it being very young at the time. As above, I'm pretty sure the issue was just that epoxy was very old (it didn't harden, even now it's still soft).



I find the DD is terrible for sticking. The Brightwell Aquatics one sticks the best ime. I've used several sticks of DD over many years and I've never had a problem either. I've never had my corals react from epoxy - ever, until now.

So wait, did dd never stick well for you or only this old batch? Or was that always an issue. Why do you use epoxy if superglue is sufficient, bigger pieces?

 

[Myka]

So wait, did dd never stick well for you or only this old batch? Or was that always an issue. Why do you use epoxy if superglue is sufficient, bigger pieces?

I've never thought DD stuck very well - any batch. This old batch though failed to harden. I like to use a little ball of epoxy so it's easier to remove the frag and move it to another location without irritating it too much.

 

[BigJohnny]

I've never thought DD stuck very well - any batch. This old batch though failed to harden. I like to use a little ball of epoxy so it's easier to remove the frag and move it to another location without irritating it too much.

Hate to beat the other side of a dead horse here but can you explain how you mount with the epoxy and how that allows you to move the frag easier? I have been always told that the epoxy is a more permanent solution, and with super glue you can just pop off the glue and the frag comes with it. I have no experience with epoxy if you can't tell ha. I appreciate you fielding my questions, looking forward to some updated tank shots!

 

[Myka]

Hate to beat the other side of a dead horse here but can you explain how you mount with the epoxy and how that allows you to move the frag easier?

If you superglue a frag, when it encrusts it encrusts the rock, and there have been times where I've had to use a hack saw blade underwater to get them off. When you use a small ball of epoxy it encrusts the epoxy before making its way to the rock. As long as you're moving it within the first year or so, it's quite easy to break the coral off where the epoxy is. I am attaching the frags to rock tips though, not nestled into nooks and crannies. If you put epoxy into a nook you'll never get it out short of drilling or chiseling.

 

[BigJohnny]

If you superglue a frag, when it encrusts it encrusts the rock, and there have been times where I've had to use a hack saw blade underwater to get them off. When you use a small ball of epoxy it encrusts the epoxy before making its way to the rock. As long as you're moving it within the first year or so, it's quite easy to break the coral off where the epoxy is. I am attaching the frags to rock tips though, not nestled into nooks and crannies. If you put epoxy into a nook you'll never get it out short of drilling or chiseling.

Cool makes sense, thanks!

 

[Myka]

Trouble in paradise...

Sept 18th:
Cal 425 ppm (S)
Alk 7.9 dKH (H)
NO3 0.25 ppm (RS)
PO4 7 ppb, 0.21 ppm (H)

The rest of September I'm focusing on NO3 and PO4 trying to get nutrients up. I have been pouring food into the tank trying to raise nutrients with no effect. I've been adding 4 spoons Coral Frenzy + 5 mL Fauna Marin Ultra Organic one day then the next I add 3 mL Pohl's Xtra + 1/4 tsp Oyster Feast + 5 mL AcroPower. Plus I've been feeding the fish 2-3 times per day as much as they will forcefully eat.

I took all those macro shots on Sept 25th (on pg 14), and during that time I noticed the fans in the ATI fixture weren't working and the fixture was auto-dimming, so I lay a room fan on it to keep it cool. Two days later many of the corals were quite bleached and I realize that the fixture must have been auto-dimming a lot for quite some time (maybe day one??). I turn off all the whites and have been running only the two blues at 80% ever since.

I noticed some burned/receding tips at the end of September and figure it was because I burned the corals with the suddenly brighter lighting, but I want to double check alkalinity so I check parameters.

Sept 29:
Cal 420
Alk 7.5
NO3 1 ppm (from NaNO3 dosing)

Oct 5th the burned tips are getting worse, so I check again and alk is 9.75, I check twice with two different kits. I stop the kalk doser. I had started adding vinegar back into the kalk (which makes it more saturated) which must be the cause of the spike, but I started the vinegar Sept 21 and the burned tips showed up around Sept 25th and the alk spike wasn't until after the 29th testing.

So I'm scratching my head here. Was it the vinegar?? Works out to about 11 mL per day I was dosing into about 80 gallons volume. I was dosing kalk+vinegar from day one, and stopped the vinegar Aug 14th, then re-started Sept 21.

Oct 7th I check alk again and it's still at 9.75 despite removing the kalk doser, so the tank had completely stopped using alk. I also note that pH is 7.4 without the kalk dosing, and I couldn't raise it by providing outside air. At this point I have about 25% of the SPS affected with burned tips.

Over Oct 7-9th I add 15 mL muriatic acid to the sump over 3 doses. This has no further affect on the pH, but does bring alk back down to 7.8. Currently, kalk doser has been offline since Oct 5th, and I haven't dosed any alk.

All the corals showing the burned tips around the end of Sept progressed into complete loss from the tips down. I've pulled out about a dozen pieces. The STN has spread to more and more corals since - I have about 80% of the SPS affected now. I fragged the Space Invaders Pectinia on Sept 26th, so that was terrible timing and I'm going to lose the frags and the mother colony I'm sure. My clam was gaping two days ago, and it died last night. The STN is on about 80% of the corals, and it is not slowing down. I may be looking at a total loss here. My rainbow Trachy, anemone, and all softies are unaffected.

Right now I clean the glass every 5-7 days, and the burned tips all have diatoms on them, otherwise the tank is pretty clean. I don't clean the back glass at all, and you can see some algae there that the fish like to pick at. At this point I'm going to stop all dosing except feeding the fish.

New pieces are being affected everyday. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[cugly]

Oh i am sorry to hear this..do some water changes to bring balance back 3 20% water changes within a week. Any thing change recently? If you make corrections i would do it one at a time so you can figure out what caused it. Well the spike for the alk happened more likely because the reduction in consumption due to the loss. Hows the polyp extension?

 

[Myka]

Oh i am sorry to hear this..do some water changes to bring balance back 3 20% water changes within a week. Any thing change recently? If you make corrections i would do it one at a time so you can figure out what caused it. Well the spike for the alk happened more likely because the reduction in consumption due to the loss. Hows the polyp extension?

Thanks for condolences - it really sucks and is quite frustrating at this point. Yeah I'm thinking to do some waterchanges - I haven't done a lot recently because of the nutrients so low. The alk spike was at least partially caused by me adding the vinegar into the kalk because vinegar + kalk is 3 tsp kalk per gallon and no vinegar is 2 tsp kalk per gallon. The changes are all listed above - a fair number of them. Luckily I keep a pretty good log, so I can look back and see when things happened and what changes were made just before that. I'm thinking it was adding the vinegar back into the kalk that triggered the STN since the STN started 3-4 days after adding the vinegar. I think cooking the corals with the suddenly much brighter light exacerbated the situation, and then the alk spike on top of it was the icing on the cake. I'm just not sure why things aren't straightening out yet. I do have some fresh saltwater mixing up right now, and I'll do a 20-gallon wc tonight.

 

[jroovers]

Sorry to hear of your issues At this point, things may be stable and your parameters fine, but your SPS may never recover. It takes forever for pieces to come around (what is left of them anyway) after they've been seriously stressed. I would not expect your remaining stuff to come around given that, but taking some frags back to healthy tissue and starting them on plugs may be your best option. I don't think there is much else you can do, other than try and stabilize things and see what comes around. Try not to change anything else if it can be avoided.

 

[lynchmob3000]

What's with muriatic acid dosing?

 

[sahin]

Thanks for condolences - it really sucks and is quite frustrating at this point. Yeah I'm thinking to do some waterchanges - I haven't done a lot recently because of the nutrients so low. The alk spike was at least partially caused by me adding the vinegar into the kalk because vinegar + kalk is 3 tsp kalk per gallon and no vinegar is 2 tsp kalk per gallon. The changes are all listed above - a fair number of them. Luckily I keep a pretty good log, so I can look back and see when things happened and what changes were made just before that. I'm thinking it was adding the vinegar back into the kalk that triggered the STN since the STN started 3-4 days after adding the vinegar. I think cooking the corals with the suddenly much brighter light exacerbated the situation, and then the alk spike on top of it was the icing on the cake. I'm just not sure why things aren't straightening out yet. I do have some fresh saltwater mixing up right now, and I'll do a 20-gallon wc tonight.

Very sorry that this happened.

When it comes to low nutrients (and I have this issue at the moment), lots of feeding and keep up water changes is exactly whats helping my system.

I have a chalice and encrusting cyphastrea that start to die off when nutrients get too low. I feed crazy amounts and then carry out a water change the following day. Do this twice a week. But ensure the water is mixed well and temp brought up before the water change.

Keep us updated.

 

[reefmutt]

Ouch... That's hurts to look at.. Sorry to see, Mindy..
I'm with you on the vinegar as tipping point theory.
Low nutrients, strong light, alk spike and then a nutrient drop will certainly trigger bad things.
I agree with Jordan... I have always found that after corals go through an even like this- the ones that survive often go into a hibernation which thay may or may not come out of but it can take months before you know which way they will go..
Good luck Mindy.

 

[markalot]

Sorry to see the tank is hurting, hang in there!

 

[jroovers]

I'd back off heavy feedings, much like if your corals aren't using alk when they are stressed/dying, they aren't going to actively feed... I'm guessing they will have little to no PE even after lights out at this point.

 

[reefmutt]

I'd back off heavy feedings, much like if your corals aren't using alk when they are stressed/dying, they aren't going to actively feed... I'm guessing they will have little to no PE even after lights out at this point.

Good point again.. You don't want the tank swinging the other way. The corals are used the the status quo.. Try to keep it for now..

 

[Myka]

Sorry to hear of your issues At this point, things may be stable and your parameters fine, but your SPS may never recover. It takes forever for pieces to come around (what is left of them anyway) after they've been seriously stressed. I would not expect your remaining stuff to come around given that, but taking some frags back to healthy tissue and starting them on plugs may be your best option. I don't think there is much else you can do, other than try and stabilize things and see what comes around. Try not to change anything else if it can be avoided.

Right now, the STN is still spreading - affecting new pieces everyday. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a total loss in a few weeks.

What's with muriatic acid dosing?

Muriatic acid will instantly drop alkalinity without affecting anything except a temporary drop in pH. Lots of people use it in freshly mixed saltwater to drop alkalinity when wanting a 7-8 dKH for low nutrient systems. I do that too - I use H2Ocean and my current bucket sits at 9.5 dKH. I add enough to drop alkalinity to 7.5-7.8.

Very sorry that this happened.

When it comes to low nutrients (and I have this issue at the moment), lots of feeding and keep up water changes is exactly whats helping my system.

I have a chalice and encrusting cyphastrea that start to die off when nutrients get too low. I feed crazy amounts and then carry out a water change the following day. Do this twice a week. But ensure the water is mixed well and temp brought up before the water change.

Keep us updated.

Hey Sahin, I've been feeding crazy amounts and not doing much for water changes and I'm not getting any measurable nutrients. I've been on standby for wc because I was expecting some, but I guess the system has been efficient. I even have the skimmer turned down to dry, dry, dry.

Ouch... That's hurts to look at.. Sorry to see, Mindy..
I'm with you on the vinegar as tipping point theory.
Low nutrients, strong light, alk spike and then a nutrient drop will certainly trigger bad things.
I agree with Jordan... I have always found that after corals go through an even like this- the ones that survive often go into a hibernation which thay may or may not come out of but it can take months before you know which way they will go..
Good luck Mindy.

Thanks Matt. It was pretty much a perfect storm, and paying attention to my own tank was taking the back burner. The pieces that are fairing the best are the pieces I got from friends' tanks rather than frags I bought. Most of the frags are toast. At the time, I didn't think much of the vinegar because it's something that I've always added to kalk dosing simply for the increased saturation. The amount that goes into the tank isn't much, and doesn't usually affect nutrients that much. I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Sorry to see the tank is hurting, hang in there!

Thanks Mark.

I'd back off heavy feedings, much like if your corals aren't using alk when they are stressed/dying, they aren't going to actively feed... I'm guessing they will have little to no PE even after lights out at this point.

I have been monitoring nighttime PE as that's when I've been doing the feedings. The last three nights there has been very little PE, so I haven't fed them.

Good point again.. You don't want the tank swinging the other way. The corals are used the the status quo.. Try to keep it for now..

I'm not sure they're used to anything but abuse right now! :lol:

 

[fishcatdog66]

Ouch.I wonder if Oldude (Greg) would have any ideas?

 

[westreef]

So sorry to hear this. I have gone through many crashes and lost many nice pieces. I know how it hurts. Just hang in there. You shall overcome!

 

[BigJohnny]

I agree with jroovers and reefmutt. Although I don't have too much experience with reefing (only on my 2nd tank), I have had a fair amount of experience with necrosis. I've seen it spread like wildfire, regardless of the initial cause and even if the conditions are stable within the tank. Since your dealing with an event that effected multiple corals, that effect will be greatly amplified IMO.

I would frag as much healthy tissue off of everything that's receding, dip in iodine, and toss the rest as hard as that may be. I doubt this can be contained. This way you may be able to save what sps have been unaffected and maybe save some that already have. I have successfully stopped events like this (not quite as significant) and saved corals that were being effected by doing this.

An alk swing like that in a low nutrient system is obviously a serious event as you know. I think that was the primary issue (I'm sure the lighting didn't help) and that stability is your best friend right now.

Some people believe don't believe necrosis is that contagious and that it has to be something in the system, but I have literally seen it move in a straight line of frags and stop when I pulled the ones that were effected.

Also, just for transparency, my issues with necrosis were caused by an alk swing (by dog jumped on me and made me spill a ton of alk in my tank when I use to manually dose two part) and once by unknown causes when I first started keeping sps (I think it was caused by many zoas and me moving them around a lot like an idiot). In both instances, my params were ideal and stable but the spread continued until I fragged and removed everything.

Oh yea, I would make sure you are running carbon if you aren't already.

Good luck and I'm sorry your having trouble!