Myka's 69 SPS Tank 2015

[cugly]

I had low nutrient issue and loosing acros same as you have now. Anything that changes will be a domino effect. I did water changes just to rid of the chemical imbalance and die off in the water . Frag what you can and bring things back to basic and keep stable. I had acros comeback from almost completely stn and some just didn't make it. I bring the ones affected not directly under the light and lower part of the tank and let them heal and recover. I hope everything will be ok.

 

[Myka]

Ouch.I wonder if Oldude (Greg) would have any ideas?

I don't know - he hasn't been around the forums much lately. I know he's dealing with RTN right now.

So sorry to hear this. I have gone through many crashes and lost many nice pieces. I know how it hurts. Just hang in there. You shall overcome!

Ive never had it this bad. I'm just glad they aren't mature colonies!

I would frag as much healthy tissue off of everything that's receding, dip in iodine, and toss the rest as hard as that may be. I doubt this can be contained.

An alk swing like that in a low nutrient system is obviously a serious event as you know. I think that was the primary issue (I'm sure the lighting didn't help) and that stability is your best friend right now.

Oh yea, I would make sure you are running carbon if you aren't already.

Good luck and I'm sorry your having trouble!

Thanks Johnny. The STN started about 7-9 days before the alk swing. I've fragged a few pieces, but I don't think it's helping because the tissue on the healthiest parts is still very, very thin. I've been going back and forth on if I should put some carbon in - pros is that it would help with stress/necrosis toxins, and cons would be that it would further reduce dissolved organics.

I had low nutrient issue and loosing acros same as you have now. Anything that changes will be a domino effect. I did water changes just to rid of the chemical imbalance and die off in the water . Frag what you can and bring things back to basic and keep stable. I had acros comeback from almost completely stn and some just didn't make it. I bring the ones affected not directly under the light and lower part of the tank and let them heal and recover. I hope everything will be ok.

Thank you. I'm almost at the point where I'm thinking I should just toss all the affected pieces as they show up, and hope the ones that look ok will stay that way...

 

[lynchmob3000]

Muriatic acid will instantly drop alkalinity without affecting anything except a temporary drop in pH. Lots of people use it in freshly mixed saltwater to drop alkalinity when wanting a 7-8 dKH for low nutrient systems. I do that too - I use H2Ocean and my current bucket sits at 9.5 dKH. I add enough to drop alkalinity to 7.5-7.8.


I can see maybe in fresh mixed water but to add to my sump?

 

[Myka]

I can see maybe in fresh mixed water but to add to my sump?

Well sure, why not? It's just a scary name.

 

[JB NY]

Well sure, why not? It's just a scary name.

Hi Mindy, I don't think that using MA in this fashion is the best approach. I use it every other week to drop the alk on my freshly mixed salt before a water change. I let the water aerate 12-24 hours. I use 15ml to drop 44 gallons of IO down to 7.5 dKH, but the Ph drop to almost to 7 immediately and then in the low 7.2-7.4 for a good 4-6 hours. Even if you can get the Ph up quicker than that the sudden drop and rise will create problems for the tank, also the alk can drop very quickly too. I feel that quick drops in alk can sometimes have a negative effect as a sudden rise in alk. I think it is much better to drop the alk naturally by shutting down the doser or ca reactor and wait the day or two needed to get the tank back to normal. If you need to drop the alk I think it is much better the do a water change to get the alk down. But personally I don't think you should ever use muriatic acid in the tank like you did.

 

[pstank1]

I'm sorry you've hit a rough patch with the tank. Do you have a secondary system or even a friends tank where you could offload a few frags to see if you could increase the chance for survival? I'm not sure what you can do at this point to recover things, but whatever changes you're making, make them slowly.

I went through my own crash at the start of the year, the most painful loss was a crocea I'd had for the past 6 years or so. After a few months of feeling sorry for myself, I decided to just keep the fish alive and started planning for an upgrade.

 

[Myka]

I did a 17-gallon water change lastnight and another just now. That's the biggest wc I can easily do.

Hi Mindy, I don't think that using MA in this fashion is the best approach. [...] I think it is much better to drop the alk naturally by shutting down the doser or ca reactor and wait the day or two needed to get the tank back to normal. If you need to drop the alk I think it is much better the do a water change to get the alk down. But personally I don't think you should ever use muriatic acid in the tank like you did.

Hey Joe. At the time there wasn't much to lose - there still isn't. The pH before the muriatic acid dosing was 7.4 and it didn't even drop a point after the dosing. I was adding 5 mL to 80 gallons though, so there wouldn't be as significant an affect as what you saw. I shut the doser down for two days and didn't lose a point in alkalinity because the corals are too stressed to be growing.

In order for me to drop the alkalinity 2 dKH I would have had to do a 40-gallon (50%) water change using saltwater with an alkalinity of 5.75 dKH. I did test this by purposefully over-dosing muriatic acid and achieved alkalinity of 5.5 dKH and when I measured pH is was at 7.2 after 12 hours of mixing, so I just don't think that would have got me anywhere either. At that point, I figured I wasn't gaining anything with all that extra work and chose to dose the muriatic acid directly to the sump. It's not something I would normally recommend, and it's not something I would make a habit of by any means.

I'm sorry you've hit a rough patch with the tank. Do you have a secondary system or even a friends tank where you could offload a few frags to see if you could increase the chance for survival? I'm not sure what you can do at this point to recover things, but whatever changes you're making, make them slowly.

I'm not making any changes right now. I have a QT for fish, but it hasn't copper in it. There's nothing in there I can't replace - they're all aquacultured and maricultured.

 

[BigJohnny]

How's everything doing?

 

[Reefvet]

Sorry to read about your reef.

I have been pouring food into the tank trying to raise nutrients with no effect. I've been adding 4 spoons Coral Frenzy + 5 mL Fauna Marin Ultra Organic one day then the next I add 3 mL Pohl's Xtra + 1/4 tsp Oyster Feast + 5 mL AcroPower. Plus I've been feeding the fish 2-3 times per day as much as they will forcefully eat.

We don't know what's in P Xtra or AP which you were adding quickly and then you dosed a lot of carbon via KW into the water with lots of fish and coral food that probably hadn't been consumed. Plus you were limiting skimming.

I doubt I could even determine what started the crash if I tested the water in our aquaculture lab with that many variables pushed all at once. I know that the bacteria counts would be high, iron and iodine would be too high.

DOCs, phos + bacteria, alk and light all shifted in a short period of time and highly concentrated aminos well above NSW levels.

SPS like stability.

Yeah I'm thinking to do some waterchanges - I haven't done a lot recently because of the nutrients so low.

Define 'Nutrients.'

Everything you were adding was a nutrient. The one you could test for may have been low but I'd say the results indicate many others were not.

I would change as much water as possible and see what's alive after 2 weeks of leaving your reef alone.

Skip the acid next time. The quick drop in alk just compounded the damage from the spike. 7 something to 9 something isn't that big a deal. Letting it come back down naturally would have just taken a week or so. And if your water mixes to 9.5 why not just run at 9.5 ?

 

[joshky]

Sorry for your crash Mindy, hopefully you can get things back on track and recover as I really love your tank. Hang in there!

 

[Myka]

How's everything doing?

Not sure, I'm out of town for 10 days.

Sorry for your crash Mindy, hopefully you can get things back on track and recover as I really love your tank. Hang in there!

Thanks Josh. I'm not heart broken or anything...it's just frags. I've had worse things happen in the last two decades.

 

[Myka]

Sorry to read about your reef.

Hey no worries. It's just frags. They are replaceable.

We don't know what's in P Xtra or AP which you were adding quickly and then you dosed a lot of carbon via KW into the water with lots of fish and coral food that probably hadn't been consumed. Plus you were limiting skimming.

I doubt I could even determine what started the crash if I tested the water in our aquaculture lab with that many variables pushed all at once. I know that the bacteria counts would be high, iron and iodine would be too high.

DOCs, phos + bacteria, alk and light all shifted in a short period of time and highly concentrated aminos well above NSW levels.

SPS like stability.

I have been adding those products for many weeks, slowly increasing. The Acro Power was the most recent addition though - I started it after the STN started, but it replaced a dose of Pohl's Xtra.

The skimmer by no means was not functioning. It's a large skimmer for the tank - ATB 840. It was still pulling a cup of black goo every 3-4 days.

Define 'Nutrients.'

I was simply refering to PO4 and NO3 in the water column though.

I would change as much water as possible and see what's alive after 2 weeks of leaving your reef alone.

I did two 17-gallon water changes over two days and then promptly left for a 10 day holiday so that's happening regardless.

Skip the acid next time. The quick drop in alk just compounded the damage from the spike. 7 something to 9 something isn't that big a deal. Letting it come back down naturally would have just taken a week or so. And if your water mixes to 9.5 why not just run at 9.5 ?

I've used acid in this fashion before and found it caused no further damage. I've been able to avoid alkalinity-caused RTN/STN events by this course before. Assuming an event would have happened if I left it alone.

Ime, alkalimity level needs to match PO4 and NO3 water column levels. There's been lots of recent talk about this too.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[joshky]

Thanks Josh. I'm not heart broken or anything...it's just frags. I've had worse things happen in the last two decades.

Glad to hear it, I'm sure 2.0 will be even better. :beer:

 

[Reefvet]

I've used acid in this fashion before and found it caused no further damage. I've been able to avoid alkalinity-caused RTN/STN events by this course before. Assuming an event would have happened if I left it alone.

Ime, alkalimity level needs to match PO4 and NO3 water column levels. There's been lots of recent talk about this too.

In my 30 years of aquaculture research we've found just the opposite but I run all NSW in the lab and very large systems, 800 gals is a small one.

Hey go with what you know but anything that indiscriminately oxidizes in a closed system is an extreme tool to use.

If it weren't for that damned border I'd ship you some frags. Have you bought from the U.S. ?

 

[Myka]

In my 30 years of aquaculture research we've found just the opposite but I run all NSW in the lab and very large systems, 800 gals is a small one.

Hey go with what you know but anything that indiscriminately oxidizes in a closed system is an extreme tool to use.

If it weren't for that damned border I'd ship you some frags. Have you bought from the U.S. ?

So if you run NSW then under which circumstances do you run unnaturally high alkalinity?

Thanks for the thought, but yes CITES affects the movement of hard corals across the border regardless if they are aquacultured.

Glad to hear it, I'm sure 2.0 will be even better. [emoji481]

You bet! V1.0 kinda sucks!

 

[jroovers]

Myka, have you considered moving to 2-part?

 

[Reefvet]

So if you run NSW then under which circumstances do you run unnaturally high alkalinity?

I research aquaculture of fish and coral. We use all NSW that is collected right here. The first 20+ years it was mainly for fish farming but in the last decade we've been contributing to research on rapid propagation of corals to seed and rebuild the world's dying reefs. So I run closed systems and test methods to accelerate growth. I'm running up to 11 dKH in ongoing studies. NSW as collected is 6.5 dKH and I use typical methods to raise parameters.

In a closed hobbyist system I wouldn't hesitate to run at 9.5 dKH. You just need to adjust the other variables, light being the biggest issue. At home I run 8.4 but have run as high as 11 dKH without an problems.

 

[jroovers]

In a closed hobbyist system I wouldn't hesitate to run at 9.5 dKH. You just need to adjust the other variables, light being the biggest issue. At home I run 8.4 but have run as high as 11 dKH without an problems.

Sounds like you've got some great, real world experience... can you be more specific as to why you need to adjust light (and in what direction, i.e. greater or lesser)?

 

[reefmutt]

+1. Very curious as well.

 

[Myka]

In my experiences, higher alkalinity, higher light, higher nutrients (PO4 and NO3 in water column). If you have high lights you need to fuel the increased demand for nutrients and elements.

Since I had low nutrients in the water column I also had lower light and lower alkalinity. Isn't this common practice among the rest of you SPS addicts?