Options going beyond dosing ?

[Gravesj1s]

This past year and change I seem to have caught an attraction to sps corals,and for the most part have done resonably well with them.
But,Ive also noticed I'm getting very close to 2tsp/per/gal of limewater becoming maxed out.In short ,I'm now finding the need to remix the limewater reservior every 3-4 days to keep Alk holding at 8.6.Without remixing It drops to 8.0 within 4 days.

Some steps Ive taken already was removing most of my monti -caps,and a few pieces of liverock.

I'd like to discuss/hear what methods I have to consider here.I know some of you use Limewater & 2 part and or Ca /x in use.Like to know why you chose one over the other.

Some other unexplored options for me anyway are increasing the overall water volume.Have a question for anyone that's simply took this approach.(i.e.- Could just increasing my overall water volume make that much difference ,perhaps I wont need to do much else in the way of supplementing?


Any thoughts ,things to consider,methodologies whatever they maybe I'd like to hear about it.
Thanks,-Steve

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

jmo

jmo

use all methods of supplementation: Ca reactor, kalk, liquid 2 parts, water changes.

Removing any fast growing coral(s) from the tank will reduce consumption but.... big corals look great in an aquarium! It's a catch 22.

Bulk Reef Supply can't be beat for preparing your own 2 part.

Ca reactor is going to help you a lot

If I had to use B-ionic I would have gone broke years ago and I'd probably have quit doing this.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Can't add much to what Gary said. I think the big frequent water change with pretested fresh SW will go a long way too. Successful SPS aquariums can be labor intensive. Consistency and attention to detail ate the key.

Personally using 2 part. But as corals grow in size and number, my CA reactor will be going on line with kalk to follow for stability. I currently do 40 gallon water change (total volume of my system is about 235) weekly with reef crystals.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

if I had a LOT of money (which I don't!) I would do a huge percentage water change with Reef Crystals every week.

In reality, most of us can't afford a large water change on large aquariums every week. This is where the smaller aquariums have an advantage.

JMO but increasing water volume isn't the way to go in order to maintain Ca/ alk.

Yes- a larger volume will be more stable overall but (all other factors being equal) consumption rates will remain the same. Kapeesh?

 

[aaronlp]

im with steve on this one..i also dose with kalk and its a paint in the but! constantly changing it and stiring it up and so forth...can u switch to a 2 part doser with an A&B supplement and put those into replace the kalk....or would a calcium reactor be better?

 

[mr86mister]

I knew you'd get the SPS Addiction Steve. I wish you could do a SPS tank on a pico. But ugh, keeping up on that would be insane.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Got to be honest with you Arron,I'm a diehard fan of limewater and dont see myself looking for a replacement,but more of what I can do to help it as my primary supplement.

Gary,I think Im following what you and mark stated,but Ive noticed my initial post was a bit vague.I meant to say I'd like to keep the limewater as I have been using it.
Not the best at explanations but Ill give it a shot here.

By increasing my water volume Im hoping this in turn will increase my evaporation rate.In theory,if Im evaporating 1 gal /per/day and replacing that gal with saturated limewater this adds 2.4dkh ,hypothetically replacing 2 gals of saturated limewater per day would be supplementing 4.8 dkh per day...........I think.

Just how I think I understand it but,its just a thought and I dont know how it will apply to the real world of reefkeeping.I guess I like how it seems a soundable approach but I dont know if anyone has gone this route and if it really made a difference or worked out that way,hope that makes better sense.

-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

I knew you'd get the SPS Addiction Steve. I wish you could do a SPS tank on a pico. But ugh, keeping up on that would be insane.

Ha! I hear ya' Mike,yeah it got me somehow.My tank is a little peanut compared to the Gary & Marks and having the honor of seeing Brandon and Pascals sps dominant reefs and knowing somewhat of what it takes to maintain these kinds of aquariums ,Im not sure its for me.I really need to think this through.
The demand Im seeing now came on quickly and seemed to increase faster than I expected.Abit unprepared to say the least.
I think what I'm the most worried about is getting overly complicated ,whitch can make things become more of a chore than relaxing,you know ?having to tinker or mess with stuff all the time.
-Steve

 

[tmz]

Hi Steve.

As you know there ar 3 mainstream approaches to alk, calcium suplementation, 4 if you count high content salt mix content and water change frequency.

I use fully saturated limewater from a still reservoir 24/7, along with Coral Life Salt with very small water changes totaling about 40% per month.

Magnesium is never an issue since the salt is high in it. The salt is also high in calcium so between it and the limewater ,I never need to dose calcium chloride nor do I need the extra calcim a CA reactor would provide.

Any of the following 3 methods for calcium and alk supplementation can be used independently or in combination.

Limewater( kalk/ calcium hydroxide). Raises ph, uses CO2 to form CO3 ( cabonate alk) with the oxide from the calcium hydroxide. It is self purifying ,since with it's abundance of oxide and it's high ph ,about 12.5 at full saturation , impuriteis good and bad precipitate out . So what you get with clear limewater is just calcium and hydroxide. I like the purity aspect. With a good dosing pump( i use a liter meter 3) nice even slow 24/7 dosing is relatively easy. It has met the needs of my sps for several years with only an occasional tweak with food grade baking soda(another relatively pure addition).

CaCO3 reactors dissolve aragonite media ( calcium carbonate) via exposure to acidic water which is made so via CO2 injection. Ph levels of the reactor effluent run from about 6.5 to 6.9 depending on how you set it for the size of media used. These are often used together with limewater dosing ; the low ph offsets the high kalk ph and balancing the two can give a nice ph level overall. I used one for a few years; it has been on the shelf for 3 yrs , since limewater now meets the needs. . I just don't trust the media purity. When the aragonite dissolves ,everything in it dissolves too, including any toxins the coral may have stashed in it's skeleton. I'm probably seeing ghosts here. Maintaining constancy when the media partially dissolved was also an issue for me. I don't car for the chronic low end ph you can get either. Many use them with good success, however..

Two part dosing. Caclium chloride and carbonate/ bicarbonae. Commercial mixes provide these in balanced proportions, ie, 50ppm carbonate/bicarbonate alkalinity to 20ppm calcium. (Note : the Ca reactor and limewater provide them both in the same balanced proportions). The calcium part in commercial two part mixes often contains trace elements and some magnesium too. These are convenient for smaller systems but can get expensive. Many use Randy Farley's recipees( see Reef Chemistry articles) for supplementing with generic sodium carbonate/bicarbonate( soda ash or baking soda) and calcium chloride for the calcium part.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

By increasing my water volume Im hoping this in turn will increase my evaporation rate.In theory,if Im evaporating 1 gal /per/day and replacing that gal with saturated limewater this adds 2.4dkh ,hypothetically replacing 2 gals of saturated limewater per day would be supplementing 4.8 dkh per day...........I think.

Just how I think I understand it but,its just a thought and I dont know how it will apply to the real world of reefkeeping.I guess I like how it seems a soundable approach but I dont know if anyone has gone this route and if it really made a difference or worked out that way,hope that makes better sense.-Steve

evap rate and water volume are two different beasts.

Sure thing somone has increased evap rates in order to up kalk additions!

Look at all the big coral greenhouses like Tropicorium: shallow vats with huge surface area to increase evaporative cooling. Water motion at the surface and low ambient room humidities also increase evaporative cooling.
You don't have to increase water volume- you have to increase surface area of the air to water interface.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

im with steve on this one..i also dose with kalk and its a paint in the but! constantly changing it and stiring it up and so forth...can u switch to a 2 part doser with an A&B supplement and put those into replace the kalk....or would a calcium reactor be better?

I don't know anything simpler than kalkwasser for supplementing Ca/ alk/ pH.
There's no reason to be constantly changing it or stirring it. It can only get saturated to a certain point and that's it.... no more!

I use a 30 gallon brute. 60 spoonfuls of pickling lime and fill 'er up. It lasts about two weeks and I never have to touch it until it's time to add more freshwater. Add kalk just like you would freshwater as makeup for evap. It couldn't get any simpler and it eliminates the chore of adding freshwater as makeup. You literally 'kill two birds with one stone' so to speak.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Thanks guys. Need to get back to this tomarrow.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Everyone has their own approach to these sorts of things, but if I were in your shoes, I would probably do the following:

1) Put a fan on the sump or DT. It can make a big difference in evap, letting you get more kalk in as topoff.
2) If that wasn't enough, I'd start dripping 2-part in those manual IV-style drippers. Cheap, easy to implement, but it's a manual effort. Still the fact that it's manual can be an advantage, since it forces you to stay on top of your numbers on an almost daily basis.

Ca reactors are great but they strike me as a big investment - the kind of thing where once you did it you might feel locked in.

 

[tmz]

Another option :The kalk wasser can be boosted with vinegar if you choose to do so. However. vinegar also adds oragnic carbon to the system in similar fashion to vodka vinegar , pellets etc, so it will fuel some heterotrophic bacteial growth which may be desireable for some systems,particularly in NO3 and PO4 reduction.

By adding 48 ml of vinegar to 1 gallon of limewater , the saturation rate ( the amount of calciium and carbonate that can be held in solution ) increases from 2 tsps per gallon to 2.72 tsps per gallon, a 36 % increase. More than 48 mls will not get any more saturation . It is recommended that only 12 ml be used when starting out and amped up slowly observing for any unintended consequences like bacteria blooms .The 12ml amount will only raise the saturtion rate by 9% (2.09 tsps).

If you are looking for carbon dosing to reduce NO3 and PO4 and bacteria for the food chain, increased caclium and carbonate and ato then adding vinegar to kalk in an ato would get you 5 things for the price of one

 

[davidpesce]

Just want to pipe in and say thanks for all the info on this! I was just about to make the jump to carbon/kalkwasser dosing and this thread has it in a neat and concise manner.

Even with weekly water changes I'm seeing my nitrates sneak up and as I add more SPS, to test the LEDs, the calcium levels drop.

 

[tmz]

constantly changing it and stiring it up and so forth

Constant stirring is a mistake. It will introduce CO2 from the air which will deplete the strength of the limewater by encouraging precipitation. It's best to stir it in once; wait 2 hours for it to settle and dose only the clear kalk water. It can be left for weeks without stirring in a covered( not necessarily sealed) container like a brute garbage an with the lid on for weeks without losing any significant strength. I just use a length of pvc pipe to stir it in when I refill the can.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Hi Tom,
I dont want to try an answer for Arron,but I think theres some confusion on why hes mixing/stirring it all the time.I know he's using a 2 gal drip system and I belive this is the reason for the frequent mixing.
-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Another question that I have been wondering about is the frequency of cleaning the kalk reservior.How often do are you guys going on average between cleaning
Is there any truth to neglecting to clean the kalk reservior's bottom precipitant really of any concern in any of your opinions or experience?

From past discussions in this forum I think most people are aware its best to not let any of the preciptant get pumped/dripped into the display tank,but not really where Im going with it.
Im just wondering if the precipitant Caco3 (as I was always told) acts as a seed site for free Ca ions to be drawn to,and that this causes limewater to degrade faster than it normally would if the reservior was kept free of build up on the bottom.
I dont know how true it is ,just what Ive read.

Reason Im asking is with winter approaching its gets way to cold outside to be using the garden hose and I drain the line about this time of year so, its going to be months before its usable again.
-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Appreaciate you guys commenting, listing options/ideas and clarifying the different approaches here.

Just taking my time with re-reading the thread and thinking it through.

Currently,Ive got a dualhead diaphram pump drawing from a 34 gal brute can whitch uses only one channel(head) So this leaves the second head (channel) unused.
Question: If I keep the one as it is using limewater ,add a second ,seperate reservior with sodium bicarbonate for the second channel (head) to draw from and slow dose that I might be able to make it work?
Keeping in mind what was stated in this thread using a high Ca/Mg salt.

My concern with 2 part stems from having a smaller volume than most of the SPS folks ive had a chance to talk with.I know some of them have stated to me they have to keep a close eye on salinity when using it.I really dont like how that sounds when I look at the over all volume they have to work with compared to mine.
Personally though,I have no experience with using it.

-Tom ,Ive read many of yours and others comments on organic (C) dosing.They are interesting to say the least and I think I have a decent general idea now how it could be useful.
Though from what I think I understand is that it really should be used with a efficient protien skimmer.Something that has so far kept me from starting any dosing regimine.Been saving for my upgrades but dont have anything worth mentioning.
The other downside I was told is it shouldn't be mixed with limewater in a large quantity like brute can I use.From what I was told it molds over in only a few short days.For the most part these are my reasons from not taking the plunge.

Have to get back to this thread tomarrow,
-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Decision final.
Going with increased water surface area by connecting another tank to my current system.Temp is set at 75f going to raise it to 80F and see how well this works to increase evaporation.
-Steve