Quarantine with Diatom Filter

[slow_leak]

I am setting up quarantine tank for atlantic blue tang.I am doing 3-5 minute FW dip at same temp. I am then quarantining fish in a bare bottom tank.

It will use sponge filter that is in continuous use in main sump. I am following the Steve Pro recipe in Reefkeeping magazine using water changes only for 2 weeks and then 1 month observation.

I wanted to add diatom filter to his recipe as quarantine has sump. I have access to discontinued Whisper Diatomagic and possibly HOT Magnum.

Is the HOT actaully a diatom filter and will it capture swimming stage of ich? Tangs can be ich magnets.

 

[JHemdal]

Since you have the set-up for it, why not just use copper? Back in the 1970's we all tried the Vortex diatom filters because they were supposed to filter out Cryptocaryon - it doesn't work though. The dwell time is long enough that the parasites have time to reattach to the fish.
Even though your sponge filter has been operating in a sump, it may not be effectively colonized by bacteria to the point of being able to handle the wastes produced by the tang, you should monitor your ammonia level in the quarantine tank.

If that were my fish, I would give it either a 14 day ionic copper treatment, or treat it for six weeks with Coppersafe (a lot of people here use Cupramine). I would also treat it with Prazipro. The observational quarantine method you described should only be used in special cases, as it has some serious faults. I'd skip the FW dips - these are just "feel good treatments" and will not help if you put the fish back into the same tank, besides the action of capturing and recapturing the fish is of course harmful.

Jay

 

[Steven Pro]

I agree with Jay. I would treat the Tang. Tangs fall into the category of fish that I treat prophylactically. I just assume all Tangs have Marine Ich and treat accordingly.

As to the diatom, they are good for polishing the water (the HOT Magnum with pleated cartridge is very nice), but I doubt they work as a treatment for Marine Ich.

 

[slow_leak]

Thanks Guys,

I failed to mention that I will be doing daily wipe down of bare bottom and 25-50% water changes through the sump. Thanks for letting me know Ich is not eliminated with diatom. Perhaps I read too much into Reefkeeping article by Steve Pro. I thought he implied. Bare bottom with water changes was effective.

As a folow up I have these two basic questions.........

1)Can the sponge filter ever be put back in main display tank after it saw Cupramine or equivalents?
2)Can the Quarantine tank ever be used as quarantine for copper sensitive organisms?

 

[slow_leak]

Nevermind I got it , just confirm common sense.

From what little labelling that exists
Kordon Kick ich is Copper Sulfate
Seachem is Cupramine.

I think Prazipro is used at same time as copper. Loss leader tanks do have a purpose.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Since you have the set-up for it, why not just use copper? Back in the 1970's we all tried the Vortex diatom filters because they were supposed to filter out Cryptocaryon - it doesn't work though. The dwell time is long enough that the parasites have time to reattach to the fish.
Even though your sponge filter has been operating in a sump, it may not be effectively colonized by bacteria to the point of being able to handle the wastes produced by the tang, you should monitor your ammonia level in the quarantine tank.

If that were my fish, I would give it either a 14 day ionic copper treatment, or treat it for six weeks with Coppersafe (a lot of people here use Cupramine). I would also treat it with Prazipro. The observational quarantine method you described should only be used in special cases, as it has some serious faults. I'd skip the FW dips - these are just "feel good treatments" and will not help if you put the fish back into the same tank, besides the action of capturing and recapturing the fish is of course harmful.

Jay

I experience is that the diatom filter when properly charged does reduce the rate of spread of ich. It has to be used all the time before eradication by QT. The diatom filter is good in QT if you want to delay eradication of ich.

------------------------

"Even though your sponge filter has been operating in a sump, it may not be effectively colonized by bacteria to the point of being able to handle the wastes produced by the tang, you should monitor your ammonia level in the quarantine tank."

+1. helps a little not likely not enough.

This way is very good to collect more than enough seed to cycle the medium for QT, but you have to cycle the medium in advance nonetheless.

 

[JHemdal]

Wooden-reefer,

The problem with the diatom filter idea is the same as with UV sterilizers - the dwell time is almost always wrong, and the parasites can survive in the tank itself and complete their life cycle without ever coming in contact with the UV or the diatom filter.
Also - diatom filters can remove sub-80 micron particles in theory, but in real world applications, they fall short, especially some of the new low pressure units on the market.
Will keeping a clean bottom in the tank and using a diatom filter help reduce the infective agents? Sure - but so will keeping the bottom clean and using a micron filter sock, or really any good mechanical filter - but the infections can and do keep right on going.

Jay

 

[slow_leak]

I got Prazipro(<5% praziquantel) and Coppersafe (chelated Copper Sulfate), along with Salifert Copper test kit. I read of a suspected error with Cupramine and Salifert test kit so went with Copper Sulfate treatment. LaMotte at Aquatic-Eco had a better test kit but I'll make sure I exhaust Salifert before I ever upgrade.

To give a bit of detail I am using sponge filters that are replaceable at 3 usd each, so I will not reuse in main display tank. Sponge filters are really just seeded for at least 2-3 weeks and better than nothing.

I have four tanks. One is a 180 display SPS dominated with 30 gallon tall refugium with deepsand bed. Refugium will house fish coming out of Q-tank as long as necessary to fatten up without competition at 1-2 at a time, but empty as intended most of the time. Simple 30 gallon breeder is a dedicated copper tank now, scrawled copper in frame, and I have a 14 Biocube with barebottom too. It is mostly empty but maintain for emergency with fitted custom sump and ATO and dalmation sailfin mollies.

I am starting over after 6-8 years of excellent growth from a GFI trip while in Europe and doing things right this time. I will house two Grade a black clowns from ORA, 3 tangs preffering active grazers, and lastly schooling blue streak cardinals(captive breed). Sounds simple enough. I had elkhorn and other brown sps that were considered difficult at that time, but hobby sure moves on with varieties.

To overcome GFI trip (which I grudgingly left in place) I got Tunze 6105 controllable DC pump with safety switch and 100 aH battery. That provides 58 hrs of 2100 gph in a 180 with 140 gallons of water.

I'll need to investigate Prazipro usage some more.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Wooden-reefer,

The problem with the diatom filter idea is the same as with UV sterilizers - the dwell time is almost always wrong, and the parasites can survive in the tank itself and complete their life cycle without ever coming in contact with the UV or the diatom filter.
Also - diatom filters can remove sub-80 micron particles in theory, but in real world applications, they fall short, especially some of the new low pressure units on the market.
Will keeping a clean bottom in the tank and using a diatom filter help reduce the infective agents? Sure - but so will keeping the bottom clean and using a micron filter sock, or really any good mechanical filter - but the infections can and do keep right on going.

Jay

Practically speaking, ie ordinary size tank, ordinary diatom filter and ordinary size UV , the diatom filter is much more effective than the UV in slowing the spread of ich.

Ich is removed at a significant rate by diatom.

This is a little like the dilution effect of the ocean.

Nothing about eradication.

The diatom filter is useful when you want to delay eradication of ich in QT when there is little sign of infestation.

 

[slow_leak]

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Based on JHemdals previous explanation, it could take years to have effective elimination when 2 weeks is well documented with copper. I chose copper over Cupramine because I thought I could control it better with test kits and get fish out of stressful Q-Tank conditions to refugium faster.

I don't necessarly follow delayed irradication in quarantine but never would consider it a mechanism in a display tank.

Any long term effects of two week copper treatment done properly?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Based on JHemdals previous explanation, it could take years to have effective elimination when 2 weeks is well documented with copper. I chose copper over Cupramine because I thought I could control it better with test kits and get fish out of stressful Q-Tank conditions to refugium faster.

I don't necessarly follow delayed irradication in quarantine but never would consider it a mechanism in a display tank.

Any long term effects of two week copper treatment done properly?

Two weeks with copper does not eradicate ich.

Sometimes LR in DT is transferred to QT so that some fish that are difficult to get to eat prepared food can pick on mature LR. The QT for the first phase for such fish serves only to isolate, not treat against ich , not yet. Sometimes you want to delay eradication of ich because treatment of ich will kill many inverts on the transfered LR.

I still use the diatom filter during QT for this purpose.

I also use UV against external bacterial infection in QT whenever possible, when there is no drug for UV to degrade.

 

[LargeAngels]

wooden-reefer,

the problem with the diatom filter idea is the same as with uv sterilizers - the dwell time is almost always wrong, and the parasites can survive in the tank itself and complete their life cycle without ever coming in contact with the uv or the diatom filter.
Also - diatom filters can remove sub-80 micron particles in theory, but in real world applications, they fall short, especially some of the new low pressure units on the market.
Will keeping a clean bottom in the tank and using a diatom filter help reduce the infective agents? Sure - but so will keeping the bottom clean and using a micron filter sock, or really any good mechanical filter - but the infections can and do keep right on going.

Jay

+1

 

[wooden_reefer]

I chose copper over Cupramine because I thought I could control it better with test kits and get fish out of stressful Q-Tank conditions to refugium faster.

Any long term effects of two week copper treatment done properly?

The key is to make QT not stressful to fish and also that you have the incentive to adhere to QT for the eight weeks needed to eradicate ich. The first and major step toward this is to make sure that the medium of filtration in QT has been very well cycled in advance. You don't need comprehensive microbial balance such as denitrification in QT, nitrate is next to harmless to fish.

For some fish, not many, some stress in QT is inevitable. Some fish, not many, don't eat well in a tank that is too small.

On balance, if you so readily accept that QT is stressful you will have the incentive to cut QT short.

I completely accept the eight week min procedure, I never have any incentive to cut short any QT. The key, as always, is to plan for the QT well in advance.

 

[slow_leak]

It's a moving target... now live rock is in Q-tank? I'm not doing that.

2-3 life cycles at 80C and proper copper levels should do the trick. Your likely getting it back from display tank

 

[wooden_reefer]

I am uncertain how ich would survive in a bare bottom at 80C that sides are wiped down, water changes, copper levels kept up. Anything is possible in nature though. That is 2-3 live cycles that would be exposed to copper. If it doesn't eliminate ich there would be little point to going through the exercise.

For fish, if you treat actively, not just observe, for eight weeks, the chance of eradication of ich is very high.

I have not had a single case of ich for close to 25 years.

 

[slow_leak]

Thanks everyone! I'll call the horse dead