Sea Shepard turns its attention to our hobby

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I find it interesting that they pick Hawaii.

It's called ol' Snorkel Bob having a personal and business related agenda in regards to his chain of tourist driven snorkel shops on Hawaii ;)

BTW, for those not familiar with CortezMarine, Steve's not an armchair environmentalist type or anti either. He was in fact one of the first people to put his life on the line (literally) to work with converting Phillipino fisherman from cyanide to net caught. Long before such organizations such as MAC existed ;)
 
Regulation, When does it not lead to Permits, Fee's, Leases, licences and the like? By any other name Taxes. Seems your trying to wag the Dog here, JMO
Bill
 
Regulation, When does it not lead to Permits, Fee's, Leases, licences and the like? By any other name Taxes. Seems your trying to wag the Dog here, JMO
Bill
So, where can I buy my license to kill? I've always wanted to be James Bond. I mean, they must have regulated murder to make money on taxes, right?

$$$:blown:$$$
 
whale like ox and cows are eaten for food.
Thats why my country been doing this for over 1000 years.
how many, do not know. Timing is regulated by law, same as hunting elk and deer. Mostly one species. Not many to choose from.
Products, what do you consider products? filling in different pate, or meat in the freezer... does not matter, available in freezers all over scandenavia, together with other products of meat.
How many percentage you ask, nah about the same amount that eat meat from the sea I guess.
Anyone taking time to think of this would be able to come up with these answers, it is not a killing for pleasure other than some like to hunt and eat, same as any other hunting allowed.

There is a difference between domesticated animals and wild species. We control the populations of our food protein species; whales on the other hand are driven by natural forces, which are being significantly altered by humans for the worse. I do not personally have a problem with subsistence hunting, or Norway's right to harvest a few species traditionally hunted. But to commercial harvest cetaceans at an industrial level is completely wrong. Whale meat is full of methyl mercury; that's the irony in the situation, bon appetit!
 
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It's called ol' Snorkel Bob having a personal and business related agenda in regards to his chain of tourist driven snorkel shops on Hawaii ;)

Exactly. Snorkel Bob has a problem: he's not making as much money renting mildewy snorkels to tourists because it's a recession. But in his mind the problem is THE DANGED REEF HOBBYISTS! :hammer:
 
Americans ie. Makah Indians in Neah Bay, Olympic Peninsula, Washington kill some grey whales periodically.
Is the US therefore giving sanction to the practice?
Although many of us are against the "harvest" ...are we not a bit of a whaling nation ourselves?

As far as the resource goes, a few here and there is sustainable it appears, but the sticking point is the intelligence level of a fellow sentient being.
[I would like to hear comment on this by our friend from Norway.]

This is the prime motivator that drives the Sea Shepards and earns them the support.
Letting themselves be "used" by Snort'n Bob on the aquarium fish thing makes them look not so wise.
A counter guest editorial would be fair and should be given.
Steve
 
Food fishing in other countries is heavy handed and so much more destructive to reefs and reef populations as to be laughable by comparison.

Steve, I'm sure you're right about this, and in any event global warming and ocean acidification are surely much bigger threats to the world's reefs than the aquarium trade has been or will ever be. And based on the comments others have made here, I don't put much faith in what Snorkel Bob has to say.

But others have made much the same point as he does much more credibly. Here's what Brian Tissot, a professor at Washington State University,and 17 co-authors have to say in the journal Marine Policy: "Evidence indicates that collection of some coral reef animals for [the aquarium and similar trades] has caused virtual elimination of local populations, major changes in age structure, and promotion of collection practices that destroy reef habitats."

I know you did good work in reforming collection practices in the Philippines, for which I thank you, and I'm confident that what you're doing now in Mexico is sustainable, but not everyone in the industry is as ethical or as committed as you.
 
There is a huge difference in the empiracle sciences and the social/political wisdom and experience to make happen effective remedies.

Hawaii, the Philippines and the coral trade?
How do you put them all in a blender and come up with generalizations?

Many of todays professional aquarium reformists evolved under the flawed thinking of the Marine Aquarium Council.
MACs failure means that people must now think for themselves again and imagine more viable remedies that actually include the fishers and the trade in a more then token way.

MAC [ and its many allies and hangers on ]provided de-facto cover for the cyanide trade, courted it and sold out to it....and finally went under from the weight of chronic failure after spending 10 years and 10 million dollars.

MACs tired and failed top down notions of reform need repudiation not revival. Was nothing learned?
Trying to change a few thousand village fishers from detached, uninvolved positions high up in the market countries with "market driven" notions in a reccession is a non starter. Why promote repetitive failure?

Bottom up approaches are the only thing thats going to work!
Community based management, fieldwork, hands-on training and getting wet can easily succeed where the city based egg-head approaches have always failed.
Steve
 
I find if very interesting that you knock empirical methods. Unsubstantiated statistics and statements aren't only to be found in the Snorkel Bob diatribe. The same can be found on the websites of the collector groups. No references whatsoever to back up any of the claims of sustainable collecting of ornamentals on the reef. Several in this thread have mentioned Snorkel Bob's financial interest in keeping the reefs healthy but none have mentioned the even more obvious financial interest by Hawaii collectors in keeping the status quo here.

The collectors in Hawaii have benefited from an almost complete lack of regulations and oversight. That is about to change. Maui has become the first county in Hawaii to enact strict regulations governing this industry:

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2010/09/01/opinion/letters_-_your_voice/letters03.txt

You can read the actual ordinance here:

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/documents/County Clerks/Ordinances/3700 - 37XX/Ord 3765.PDF

All indications look to The Big Island to be next. The counties are doing what the DLNR should be but isn't. Of course, it's probably unenforcible but the writing is on the wall.

I encourage everybody to do some googling for the "egg-head" studies of the reefs in Hawaii. There are plenty and all come to similar conclusions. In those areas of the reef where collecting occurs fish populations are down by up to 100% less than those where collecting is forbidden. Some Hawaiian reefs are completely missing collectible species that were documented there in the past. These data are not directly attributable to collecting due to lack of baseline data and lack of catch record keeping. You can take this statement and run with it if you want but how can there be any doubt that collecting impacts these populations? The DLNR itself is very clear that it suspects that, at least, half of all ornamental fish collected are not reported and that more oversight is needed.

My "egg-headedness" aside, this does not indicate good self-regulation on the part of the collectors.
 
the sea shepards are nothing but a bunch of wreckless hippies that have not a clue about anything. Obviously whale hunting isin't illegal because if hunting whales was actually illegal sombody with some authority would do somthing about it.don't get me wrong i don't think we should kill whales,but come on thoes wreckless hippies are doing little to nothing.

i heartily agree
 
I find if very interesting that you knock empirical methods. Unsubstantiated statistics and statements aren't only to be found in the Snorkel Bob diatribe. The same can be found on the websites of the collector groups. No references whatsoever to back up any of the claims of sustainable collecting of ornamentals on the reef. Several in this thread have mentioned Snorkel Bob's financial interest in keeping the reefs healthy but none have mentioned the even more obvious financial interest by Hawaii collectors in keeping the status quo here.

The collectors in Hawaii have benefited from an almost complete lack of regulations and oversight. That is about to change. Maui has become the first county in Hawaii to enact strict regulations governing this industry:

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2010/09/01/opinion/letters_-_your_voice/letters03.txt

You can read the actual ordinance here:

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/documents/County Clerks/Ordinances/3700 - 37XX/Ord 3765.PDF

All indications look to The Big Island to be next. The counties are doing what the DLNR should be but isn't. Of course, it's probably unenforcible but the writing is on the wall.

I encourage everybody to do some googling for the "egg-head" studies of the reefs in Hawaii. There are plenty and all come to similar conclusions. In those areas of the reef where collecting occurs fish populations are down by up to 100% less than those where collecting is forbidden. Some Hawaiian reefs are completely missing collectible species that were documented there in the past. These data are not directly attributable to collecting due to lack of baseline data and lack of catch record keeping. You can take this statement and run with it if you want but how can there be any doubt that collecting impacts these populations? The DLNR itself is very clear that it suspects that, at least, half of all ornamental fish collected are not reported and that more oversight is needed.

My "egg-headedness" aside, this does not indicate good self-regulation on the part of the collectors.

Very sensible post.
 
Hey,
No one called for the head of Galileo here.
You miss my main point;

There is a huge difference in the empiracle sciences and the social/political wisdom and experience to make happen effective remedies.

The ability to point out a problem is not the same ability needed to resolve it.

The knee-jerk default to more Government regulation and market driven theories.... which you know nothing about is an old one.

The Hawaiians collectors have benefited from a lack of regulation?

I would say the money grubbing research organizations and phoney certification schemes have.
Looting the issue by non field savy egg heads may have ruined the chances for reform.
The qeue lining up behind MAC and MAMTI hoping for grant money was a veritable Whos Who of marine biologists.
They rode it til the wheels came off. Nearly everyone it seems wanted to milk it!

The campaign for aquarium industry reform carried out by this old guard was a dismal failure and the strategies employed debunked.
It played out from 1998 until all the wasted grant money finally ran out.
Where were you?
Empiracle science takes us only so far. The strategies for social influence needed for reform cannot be forged by the wrong skill sets.
How does one resume fit all?
How does expertise in one area somehow spread out to become expertise in so many others?

Observing , monitoring a reefs decline does not make one qualified to solve it.
Calling the DENR incompetent and out to lunch on all this is an interesting assumption. I for one would like to hear what they have to say on all these charges and assumptions.
Steve
 
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Certainly I've never implied that I was part of the collector's group. But I am a resident of the state of Hawaii and am concerned about the size of the aquarium catch and the state of our reefs. Government's responsibility is to protect and enforce the will of the people...the "We".

I'm at a loss here though. You being the expert, can you explain how the industry responds to the Snorkel Bob type memos? That's really what I'm interested in. From your responses I get the feeling that you think I should keep my nose out of it. Surely this is not what you want. How can the community examine these issues in an objective way and draw their own conclusions? Without reasonable response from the industry to these types of allegations, strict regulation will always result.
 
As a citizen of Hawaii of course you have a right to be concerned.

But the news feed we get as citizens is often at odds with a reality one can experience if one can work with all sides ie. social, economic and with independant scientific reasoning.
The clearest voice of reason I have seen comes from the American scientist, Walter Starck living near the Great Barrier Reef in Australia.
Read his statement below;


Although many environmental problems are only too real there are also many purported ones that are exaggerated, dubious or do not even actually exist. Concern for the environment provides a convenient cloak for sundry other agendas and environmentalism now encompasses a quasi-religious blend of new-age nature worship, junk science, left-wing political activism and anti-profit economics. Environmental regulation has been hijacked by activists, bureaucrats and researchers all of whom have a vested interest in promoting the idea of dire threats which of course require more regulation, more bureaucracy and more research.

Ironically, those who profess a deep concern for our precious environment tend to predominantly be urbanites who themselves choose to live in an environment where the natural world has been almost completely annihilated. Incongruous too is their fierce rejection of any suggestion that anything may not be a bad as they fear (or apparently hope).

Contrary to popular perception, in most developed countries the overall environmental condition has greatly improved over the past few decades and although much remains to be done the situation good and getting better. Real problems are quite sufficient. We do not need to waste effort and resources on imaginary ones.

Australia with its vast area, small population, remoteness, and high standard of living enjoys one of the least polluted, unspoiled natural environments of any nation. Unfortunately, environmental management here has tended to become dominated by ideology, theories, and a proliferation of bureaucracy with minimal assessment of either the real environment or the socio-economic consequences. Exacerbated by the precautionary principle the result has been a growing morass of restrictions and demands to address problems that often do not exist or that could be addressed by more effective, less burdensome measures. With a prosperity based predominantly on primary production ill-conceived environmental regulations are becoming a far more real threat to national security than is the danger of terrorism.

In the prevailing climate of political correctness concerning environmental matters few scientists are willing to speak out in opposition to the misrepresentation, suppression and outright fraud that is often being perpetrated in connection with environmental issues. At best it means being shunned by colleagues and almost certainly will have negative career consequences. I have because a combination of age and independence permit, knowledge and experience qualify, and sense of responsibility impel me to do so. The response from those on the receiving end of environmental mismanagement has been gratifying and the private agreement of many researchers surprising.

No, this did not start in Hawaii...and this discussion is not new.
The lay public has no idea how much time, careers, money etc has already been invested milking these aquarium trade issues without getting real.
Steve
 
but none have mentioned the even more obvious financial interest by Hawaii collectors in keeping the status quo here.

Actually, any collector willing to think beyond just today's catch, has quite a vested interest keeping the reefs healthy. Most of the Hawaiin (and most from other areas) collectors I've had the pleasure of talking to do claim to very regularly alternate collecting areas and avoid taking mass quantities of a species off a reef. Granted there are some that are not so knowledgeable or willing to do anything to preserve their own livelihoods, but they do tend be in the minority, and some cases even outcasts among others in their profession.

None of that is to say that there should not be studies of the fish populations and quota's established based on sound fisheries science. But that is also quite different than the knee jerk reactions of the likes of Snorkel Bob, who conveniently forgets about the well documented effects of tourists trampling the reefs.
 
Selecting the worst example you can find and purporting it to be the norm is fraudulent and irresponsible.

It is very offensive to those of us who take the health of the sea more seriously then most. If we live it...and live in it, we get to see it month by month and season by season.
Many collectors have their finger on he pulse better then anyone and in our case are often used by observers to do the observing and most of the work.
Good scientists work with local knowledge. Others work only with their own limitations and claim to understand whats going on.

From the last months in Baja our keywords are.....
long cold season,
weak counter currents,
yellowtail still here,
dorado arriving late,
delayed spawn and grow out of passer angels.
unnaturally huge overbloom of guineafowl puffers [ very cool...so easy to catch, yet so numerous beyond anything seen in 30 years which is my scope on this panorama],
thousands of x-small juvenile Cortez and passer popping up everywhere [ in August instead of June] ,
Jawfish colonies expanding beyond old boundaries,
and so on.....
There are no scientists keeping tabs on this stuff with reference to our issues. When they do touch on the aquarium trade they are largely doing their work in front of google and cutting and pasting old work, and others work that has gone before.

Oops,
Excuse me for being real.
 
The same can be found on the websites of the collector groups. No references whatsoever to back up any of the claims of sustainable collecting of ornamentals on the reef.

Here you go:

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2010/02/12/local/local02.txt

"The present level of take of aquarium fish is sustainable" - from a state biologist with access to real data, not an unsubstantiated source.

Several in this thread have mentioned Snorkel Bob's financial interest in keeping the reefs healthy but none have mentioned the even more obvious financial interest by Hawaii collectors in keeping the status quo here.

Well, no. Naturally snorkel companies want to keep the reefs healthy, but so do we. If the reef goes, so does our livelihood. Never mind that most of us do this job because we enjoy the outdoors and love being in the ocean.

The collectors in Hawaii have benefited from an almost complete lack of regulations and oversight.

Not really. It's more of a liability than an asset. Because of this, we're constantly bombarded with junk legislation and harassment by activists such as the one who started this thread. I would love to see the fishery managed properly, with real science, as it would make my job a lot easier and ultimately benefit everybody.
 
professional management

professional management

I would love to see the fishery managed properly, with real science, as it would make my job a lot easier and ultimately benefit everybody.
Bingo!

Amen to that brother!
If it were managed properly then we wouldn't be the cash cow for every regulator, monitor, observer, administrator, inspector and pseudo eco-group that comes calling all the time...every year and with a new cast of characters with every change in government.
The research that never, ever ends and never will because its an anchor for a grant.....the perpetual monitoring and judging that never arrives at a conclusion.

In the culture of corrupt customs officials one never allows the client to feel legal and fully free..This way you can tap him whenever you need money.

The eco-orgs inc. are starting to get like that and understandably want to usurp the government structures to justify their intrusion into the matter.

A well managed fishery bureacracy that does its job professionally without manufacturing chronic alarms would be great to see.

Steve
 
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