giantbicycle
New member
Hey coralNutz, The discussion here is all about zoanthids
Serious Disscussion of Zoanthids Growth
- Thread starter giantbicycle
- Start date
Hey coralNutz, The discussion here is all about zoanthids
giantbicycle
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6310140#post6310140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whodah
feeding
in my experience, some zoas 'react' to food, some 'eat' food (mostly palys), and others don't seem to even know i'm squirting them w/ food.
i'm not convinced that any of my zoas eat, but i am very convinced that some of my palys do.
exponential growth
another note, and it may seem obvious once stated, is that zoanthid growth is exponential. i.e. if you start w/ 2 polyps and grow a 3rd in 7 weeks, then you can carry that same logic out (roughly) to where if you had 20 polyps, you'd get roughly 10 more in the same time period.
furthermore, it seems to be at a greater exponential rate than just a simple multiplier factor. i.e. it seems to be more than just 1.5x the polyp count every y time period. i'm not gonna go try and find a differential equation to describe their growth, but it seems to be that you might get 1.5x the first y period, then 1.55x the second y period, then 1.6x the third y period, etc. until it levels off at some growth rate number.
i've noticed this to be pretty consistent while watching them grow. there are other factors, i.e. surface area adjacent to potential growth areas vs. the highly populated center of a colony, but you get the idea.
so unfortunately, that logic lends itself to 'not fragging'. blasphemy! heehee!
so what do you do? frag or grow?
well, here's my game plan. not saying it's right or wrong, just what i do!
so let's play out a year's worth of growth. numerically and chronologically, it would look something like:
- day 1 - new frag of 6 polyps comes in. DIP IT!! heh
- day 21 - (3 weeks since i've had them) perhaps 1 new polyp, frag it into 1 x 2 polyp and 1 x 5 polyp frags. get one in another tank!!!
- day 70 - at ~ 8 polyps
- day 119 - at ~ 13 polyps
- day 168 - at ~21 polyps
- day 217 - at ~32 polyps - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to 27 polyps
- day 266 - at ~ 40-42 polyps (depending how the colony reacted to the fragging) - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to ~36 polyps
- day 315 - at ~ 55 polyps - the surface area at which the zoas can spread out is large, but no 'center' growth as there's nowhere for the center polyps to grow! frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 45 polyps
- day 364 - at ~ 62 polyps, same growth restraints, frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 52
so in ~ 3/4 year, i'm ready for fragging. after 1 years time, my mother colony is at ~52 polyps, and i've made a total of 7 frags. and after this mark, i'm making 2 frags per month and soon 3 polyp frags per month.
also - you noticed that i made mention of no 'center' growth as it's crowded out. this lends to more advanced fragging techniques involving fragging the middle of your colony and not just the edges. why? well, if you make frags in the middle of your colony, then the middle zoas have a place to grow too. thus, yer getting border growth and middle growth. it is a lot more work to frag in this manner though...
thoughts?
Great Input and findings...Really apperciate for your sharing
Hopefully there are more to come Thats wad i am requesting for
Thanks once again. Its a great start
giantbicycle
New member
Looking forward to it.
I love to see a good debate and discussion like this. This is how we all mature as hobbyist through other reefers' opinions, findings and ideas.
With all due respect, I have to disagree. And just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends.
All zoos are not alike nor the same. The one common denominator that I have found with all of them is that they are extremely hardy and will adapt to most types of lighting. I can't see how the above theory of reproduction can possibly be true or consistantly true. If I and 4 other reefers did exactly what you did, do you think we would yield the same results exponentially? I would say no. Because no two system are the same. Tank variables/parameters/lighting/current etc and not the zoos themselves will determine growth and the rate of reproduction. It is impossible to say that consistantly you will have one new polyp in 3 weeks. Sometimes I get 5 in 3 weeks, other times I might get one. All things being equal, if you have a system with all parameters and conditions dialed in perfectly and consistantly, you should and could maintain steady growth, but you can't calculate growth this month based on growth last month or with other colonies or a schedule. All zoos and palys are not alike when it comes to reproduction.
Regarding food, we all know that zoos are Photosynthetic and will use lighting as their primary source of nutrient uptake. This alone will sustain them. Many years ago, before feeding zoos became so mainstream, I never once feed my zoos and I had some killer growth patterns. Feeding, in my unprofessional opinion, should be a secondary, not a primary source of nutrition. Will zoos survive without secondary ( external feeding ), Yes. Will the do slightly better by feeding them twice a week, most definitely over time. That can only be proven through physical observation, which is what I did earlier this year. I went 3 weeks without feeding and changed nothing else in my tank. Did my corals surive, yes. Did they appear healthy, yes. For the next 3 weeks, I fed a combination of Frozen Cyclop eez, ESV's Spray Dried Marine Phyto Plankton and Oyster Eggs. I focused on 5 colonies in one area as I did when I didn't fed for 3 weeks. The one thing I noticed was a healthier looking more full bodied physical appearance. Of the 5 colonies, I noticed 7 new polyps during the 3 week period without feeding. I had 13 new polyps total during the weeks I did feed. I regret not doing it multiple times to see if I could receive the same results. Now would that happen in someone else's tank, maybe, maybe not, since no two systems and their variables are the same.
I'm quoting verbatim from Eric B's book, page 187 "Zoanthus are highly dependant on their zooxanthellae -- rather than active feeding on Zooplankton- for energy"
"Many reports both in scientific and hobby literature claim that Zoanthus species do not exibit feeding responses to any prey. This is mostly true for typical zooplankton prey, but I have found that the right kind of food will elicit a standard prey-capture response"
I believe that zoos can, do and will feed, both day and night. I feed once a week during the day and once at night 3 days later. We often think that just because we don't physically see a prey-capture response, that our zoos do not actively feed. Zoos have a "SIPHONOGLYPH, or single mouth, which leads into the Gastrovascular cavity, which has vibrating cilia that assist in both feeding and water exchange within the polyp" page 177.
A mouth with a gastrovacular pouch or stomach, gives further merit to the fact that zoos can and will feed.
I can't speak for anyone else, but what I know to be consistantly true in my tank and those of my local reefmates with zoo dominated tanks is this. The factors that have yielded the best growth and expansion are strong but not overpowering alternating/random current, bright lighting, MH users with a good to high Par value, and a KH around 10, with stable and none flucuating parameters, have received moderate to above average growth/reproduction. I don't believe that secondary feeding is a must, its simply an added benefit which will be manifested by a slightly enhanced physical appearance over time.
In my opinion
3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? POSSIBLY
4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? I HAVE NEVER READ NOR WITNESSED IT, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T TRUE THOUGH.
5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? MOST DEFINITELY, ENOUGH TO WIGGLE THE POLYPS BUT NOT OVERPOWERING THEM TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WILL RETRACT.
6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. STATED ABOVE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JUST LEAVING THEM ALONE AND NOT MOVING THEM AROUND. IT WILL ONLY IRRITATE THEM AND STUNT THEIR GROWTH.
Regarding rarity and growth, I have heard and read the debate for years that rare zoos and palys grow very slow, and that is why they are rare, NOT TRUE. Zoanthids, whether common or rare, grow/reproduce at different rates. To say all the rare zoos grow very slow, and that is why they are considered rare simply isn't true. I have some very common zoos that grow at a snails pace, then again, I have some extremely rare zoos that grow like weeds. I have even had to cut my photperiod back to 7 hours to stop the growth. Rarity is based on collection and availability, not growth rate.
Sorry for the long response. And I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone's opinions.
Big Mouth Mucho
With all due respect, I have to disagree. And just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends.
All zoos are not alike nor the same. The one common denominator that I have found with all of them is that they are extremely hardy and will adapt to most types of lighting. I can't see how the above theory of reproduction can possibly be true or consistantly true. If I and 4 other reefers did exactly what you did, do you think we would yield the same results exponentially? I would say no. Because no two system are the same. Tank variables/parameters/lighting/current etc and not the zoos themselves will determine growth and the rate of reproduction. It is impossible to say that consistantly you will have one new polyp in 3 weeks. Sometimes I get 5 in 3 weeks, other times I might get one. All things being equal, if you have a system with all parameters and conditions dialed in perfectly and consistantly, you should and could maintain steady growth, but you can't calculate growth this month based on growth last month or with other colonies or a schedule. All zoos and palys are not alike when it comes to reproduction.
Regarding food, we all know that zoos are Photosynthetic and will use lighting as their primary source of nutrient uptake. This alone will sustain them. Many years ago, before feeding zoos became so mainstream, I never once feed my zoos and I had some killer growth patterns. Feeding, in my unprofessional opinion, should be a secondary, not a primary source of nutrition. Will zoos survive without secondary ( external feeding ), Yes. Will the do slightly better by feeding them twice a week, most definitely over time. That can only be proven through physical observation, which is what I did earlier this year. I went 3 weeks without feeding and changed nothing else in my tank. Did my corals surive, yes. Did they appear healthy, yes. For the next 3 weeks, I fed a combination of Frozen Cyclop eez, ESV's Spray Dried Marine Phyto Plankton and Oyster Eggs. I focused on 5 colonies in one area as I did when I didn't fed for 3 weeks. The one thing I noticed was a healthier looking more full bodied physical appearance. Of the 5 colonies, I noticed 7 new polyps during the 3 week period without feeding. I had 13 new polyps total during the weeks I did feed. I regret not doing it multiple times to see if I could receive the same results. Now would that happen in someone else's tank, maybe, maybe not, since no two systems and their variables are the same.
I'm quoting verbatim from Eric B's book, page 187 "Zoanthus are highly dependant on their zooxanthellae -- rather than active feeding on Zooplankton- for energy"
"Many reports both in scientific and hobby literature claim that Zoanthus species do not exibit feeding responses to any prey. This is mostly true for typical zooplankton prey, but I have found that the right kind of food will elicit a standard prey-capture response"
I believe that zoos can, do and will feed, both day and night. I feed once a week during the day and once at night 3 days later. We often think that just because we don't physically see a prey-capture response, that our zoos do not actively feed. Zoos have a "SIPHONOGLYPH, or single mouth, which leads into the Gastrovascular cavity, which has vibrating cilia that assist in both feeding and water exchange within the polyp" page 177.
A mouth with a gastrovacular pouch or stomach, gives further merit to the fact that zoos can and will feed.
I can't speak for anyone else, but what I know to be consistantly true in my tank and those of my local reefmates with zoo dominated tanks is this. The factors that have yielded the best growth and expansion are strong but not overpowering alternating/random current, bright lighting, MH users with a good to high Par value, and a KH around 10, with stable and none flucuating parameters, have received moderate to above average growth/reproduction. I don't believe that secondary feeding is a must, its simply an added benefit which will be manifested by a slightly enhanced physical appearance over time.
In my opinion
3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? POSSIBLY
4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? I HAVE NEVER READ NOR WITNESSED IT, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T TRUE THOUGH.
5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? MOST DEFINITELY, ENOUGH TO WIGGLE THE POLYPS BUT NOT OVERPOWERING THEM TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WILL RETRACT.
6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. STATED ABOVE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JUST LEAVING THEM ALONE AND NOT MOVING THEM AROUND. IT WILL ONLY IRRITATE THEM AND STUNT THEIR GROWTH.
Regarding rarity and growth, I have heard and read the debate for years that rare zoos and palys grow very slow, and that is why they are rare, NOT TRUE. Zoanthids, whether common or rare, grow/reproduce at different rates. To say all the rare zoos grow very slow, and that is why they are considered rare simply isn't true. I have some very common zoos that grow at a snails pace, then again, I have some extremely rare zoos that grow like weeds. I have even had to cut my photperiod back to 7 hours to stop the growth. Rarity is based on collection and availability, not growth rate.
Sorry for the long response. And I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone's opinions.
Big Mouth Mucho
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giantbicycle
New member
Thanks for THIS BIG AND USEFUL input...Sorry for the caps but i was totally astonished by the feedback given compared to your first reply
A big thank to you and i agree greatly with wad you input .Firstly i would like to say again(Quoted from above)
<< that Rarity is truely based on collection and availability, not growth rate.>>
I agree on that ..
And lastly , you need not appologise as I LOVE YOu Being Big Mouth.
Whenever we disagree, I just like to make sure that no one takes what I am saying as a cut down or that I'm being disrespectful. I just want to keep the peace and throw in my two cents.
Mooch
Mooch
giantbicycle
New member
Another Question which i heard before is that ,
Does Antinics Lights Really Inprove the colouration of your Zooanthids,
*Its not the viewing appearance , But its the Actual colour of the zooanthids.*
:eek2:
Does Antinics Lights Really Inprove the colouration of your Zooanthids,
*Its not the viewing appearance , But its the Actual colour of the zooanthids.*
:eek2:
giantbicycle
New member
No worries, Its well apperciated by each & ever individual who wants to get some inputs
Reef On pal :rollface:
tigerarmy40
New member
I regularly frag from the center of my colonies by adding a small peice of rubble to the center and just letting it sit, I then go in about three weeks later and just cut the rubble out. I have tried both fragging form the edge and the center and beleive that the center frags faster, of course me method of fragging is a little different being that I do not cut the frag and glue it but let it grow onto the rubble naturaly! also I have noticed that my frags at the bottom of the tank deff grow slower and that is not only due to lower lighting but the fact that the flow is much lower at the sand level in my tank! just thought id share!
BrianPlankis
Premium Member
Here is my .02
I've found three things increase the growth of zoas in my tank:
1. Leaving them alone. zoas that are glued in place, or at least not moved around a lot, seem to grow a lot faster than ones moved around.
2. Keep them in moderate current and off the sandbed. Most of my zoas seem irritated by my sandbed. When they are moved up they tend to grow faster. (could be by reduced irritation or possibly higher intensity lighting from being higher).
3. Dirtier water and the right salt. I've had to stop feeding food to my tank for over 6 months now and my zoa growth has slowed substantially. There were three changes during this time: a new salt, no feeding except phytoplankton and my lights aging. I suppose it could be any of the three, but now that I switched back to Kent salt my zoas are open a LOT more and I've seen new growth while my bulbs are still aging and I'm still only feeding phytoplankton.
A lot of speculation I know, but that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see what happens once I have a higher nutrient level when I start feeding the tank again.
Brian
I've found three things increase the growth of zoas in my tank:
1. Leaving them alone. zoas that are glued in place, or at least not moved around a lot, seem to grow a lot faster than ones moved around.
2. Keep them in moderate current and off the sandbed. Most of my zoas seem irritated by my sandbed. When they are moved up they tend to grow faster. (could be by reduced irritation or possibly higher intensity lighting from being higher).
3. Dirtier water and the right salt. I've had to stop feeding food to my tank for over 6 months now and my zoa growth has slowed substantially. There were three changes during this time: a new salt, no feeding except phytoplankton and my lights aging. I suppose it could be any of the three, but now that I switched back to Kent salt my zoas are open a LOT more and I've seen new growth while my bulbs are still aging and I'm still only feeding phytoplankton.
A lot of speculation I know, but that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see what happens once I have a higher nutrient level when I start feeding the tank again.
Brian
CoralNutz
In Memoriam
I think my point was missed. It wasn't that any zoanthid is going to follow the same growth pattern. Doesnt' matter what zoanthid, paly, sps, lps, anything really.
You could take any zoanthids/palys out there. If you had two equal chunks of 100 polyps each of the same exact zoas/palys.
Let say you take the one colony and devide it into 33, 3 polyp frags. And the other one you leave as a 100 polyp colony. Doesn't matter if they grow fast or slow, if they are int he same tank with same conditions and the same zoas, IME they will have have similar growth rates.
So, lets say however long it takes those 3 polyp frags to average 3 new polyps each. That's 100% growth. I can bet you time and time and time again, it will be faster that those 3 polyp frags will each grow 3 new polyps, than that original colonly can grow into 200 polyps sitting there. It's really about surface area and subdivision.
Hope that makes more sense. If not I will have some diagrams soon too.Similar techniques are used in horticulture to maximize yeilds.
There are other factors involved too and it's by far a perfect science. Things like die off are common because of the small sizes of the frags make them more delicate IME.
As far as not being able to predict the growth. IME, it's hard to predict growth when the zoas are growing in colonies. But in the last 18 months that i have been propping zoas on a regular basis, I have to say that I am pretty dead on with predicting when frags will be done. I have the zoas that I frag on a regular basis and when I sit down and make up 10, 3 polyp frags I can predict, within a couple weeks anyway, of when those frags will hit 10+ polyps. And they usually grow out pretty uniform with each other too. Some are slower, some are faster, after a few runs you can predict pretty accurately how it's going to go. Obviously there are runts from time to time. The most important thing is the glueing. That can stunt a new frags growth really bad.
Anyway, enough rambling from me. Hope the theorie makes sense, it really has nothing to do with any certain type of zoa and pretty much would apply to any coral that can be fragged. If you look at any of the large aquaculture outfits, it's no secret to them.
Obviously this is worthless to someone trying to grow out a colony in thier tank, but if we are talking polyp for polyp growth.....
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giantbicycle
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6321818#post6321818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whodah
can you elaborate on this a bit please?
I'm keen to know more about this too...and well said there.And i am looking forward to the diagrams too .Thanks
giantbicycle
New member
Apperciate your input.....Hope More to come :lol:
CoralNutz
In Memoriam
When you glue the frags onto the plugs, discs or live rock rubble it is important to use just the right amount of glue. Too little and the frag wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t hold tight, and will probably blow away easily considering you will want to keep the newly cut frags in some moderate flow for a week or so while they recover. Too much glue and the glue will ooze out from the bottom sides of the new frag. When this happens it is going to slow down the new growth a lot. You want just enough glue to hold it down, but not oozing out the sides. IME, what works best is to make a little pile of super glue gel onto a piece of paper or cardboard and then I use a toothpick to apply the glue to the plug. Also, it is a good idea to keep a bowl of tank water handy to dip the frags into RIGHT AWAY after you glue them on. The super glue gel heats up a lot when it is drying/curing. You donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have to leave them under water, just sort of a flash curing. Be careful though as the glue will still not be dry at this point, and can frags can still fall off or moved if bumped.
Ideally what you want is just like a drop of super glue gell underneath the middle of the frag and then you want the flesh around the base of the frag to be in direct contact with the plug/disc without glue between it and the plug. This is kind of hard to explain without pictures, but basically you want to avoid using so much glue that it oozes out the sides of the bottom of the frag. Another thing that can happen is accidentally getting glue on the upper portions of the polyps. When this happens there isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t much you can do except try to wipe it off and hope it doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t kill the polyp.
Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not the easiest to make such small frags and have a high percentage of survival. When I first started doing this I would lose more than 50% of the new frags until I perfected my methods. Now I am consistently up to around 85%. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a lot like surgery. I also recommend wearing eye protection and rubber gloves due to the possibility of toxins squirting you in the eye.
Also, the exacto blades that you can get at craft stores work much better than the standard razer blades for me. Whatever you have an easier time holding is what I would recommend. Just make sure that you use clean blades every fragging session and to rinse your tools in freshwater when done to avoid getting rust on them, even stainless steel tools will rust eventually, so I like to keep them clean.
Another thing I try to do is time my fragging events with carbon changes, and also I like to get them done right before I shut the lights out for the night. I have noticed that I have better results when they go into the dark right after being sliced up.
Anyway, I think my boss would like it if I get back to work. These methods may not work for everyone but they have been working for me with great success for well over a year now on a consistent basis. Hopefully some of the others with dedicated prop/frag tanks that do this often can chime in on what has worked and what hasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worked for them.
PS> I will try to get some diagrams and other things done for my website over the holiday weekend and hopefully that will help with my explanations.
Jeremy
Ideally what you want is just like a drop of super glue gell underneath the middle of the frag and then you want the flesh around the base of the frag to be in direct contact with the plug/disc without glue between it and the plug. This is kind of hard to explain without pictures, but basically you want to avoid using so much glue that it oozes out the sides of the bottom of the frag. Another thing that can happen is accidentally getting glue on the upper portions of the polyps. When this happens there isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t much you can do except try to wipe it off and hope it doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t kill the polyp.
Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not the easiest to make such small frags and have a high percentage of survival. When I first started doing this I would lose more than 50% of the new frags until I perfected my methods. Now I am consistently up to around 85%. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a lot like surgery. I also recommend wearing eye protection and rubber gloves due to the possibility of toxins squirting you in the eye.
Also, the exacto blades that you can get at craft stores work much better than the standard razer blades for me. Whatever you have an easier time holding is what I would recommend. Just make sure that you use clean blades every fragging session and to rinse your tools in freshwater when done to avoid getting rust on them, even stainless steel tools will rust eventually, so I like to keep them clean.
Another thing I try to do is time my fragging events with carbon changes, and also I like to get them done right before I shut the lights out for the night. I have noticed that I have better results when they go into the dark right after being sliced up.
Anyway, I think my boss would like it if I get back to work. These methods may not work for everyone but they have been working for me with great success for well over a year now on a consistent basis. Hopefully some of the others with dedicated prop/frag tanks that do this often can chime in on what has worked and what hasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worked for them.
PS> I will try to get some diagrams and other things done for my website over the holiday weekend and hopefully that will help with my explanations.
Jeremy
interesting... i never put words to it, but i try to keep my gluing technique similar in nature when doing individual polyps or loose polyps. i still probably over-glue based on your description though...
however, i will say that i typically try and avoid gluing direct polyps. when i frag, i use a [ur]=http://www.drinstruments.com/xq/ASP/pid.80/cat.20/qx/product.htm]scalpel[/url] and kind of scrape underneath the first 'layer' of the rock. i hate breaking the rock as you can obviously only do this so many times until you're left w/ a tiny rock, heh!
i use that exact scalpel there because they are really strong and you can put a lot of pressure on them when doing this. they are sharp, however i also have several other tools from that place including a more exacto-blade style scalpel. it is much more fragile, but much more sharp for cutting mat/polyps.
but in doing this, i'm left w/ the zoa still in tact w/ 'rubble' and then glue down the rubble. thus no superglue comes in contact w/ the polyps at all.
however, i tell you that to ask you this: utilizing that technique, do you think one would still get the 'explosive frag growth rate' you were talking about? i.e. you are gluing 3 loose polyps down w/ their skin touching the frag plug as much as possible. i'm gluing down 3 'non-loose' polyps in a similar manner.
thoughts?
however, i will say that i typically try and avoid gluing direct polyps. when i frag, i use a [ur]=http://www.drinstruments.com/xq/ASP/pid.80/cat.20/qx/product.htm]scalpel[/url] and kind of scrape underneath the first 'layer' of the rock. i hate breaking the rock as you can obviously only do this so many times until you're left w/ a tiny rock, heh!
i use that exact scalpel there because they are really strong and you can put a lot of pressure on them when doing this. they are sharp, however i also have several other tools from that place including a more exacto-blade style scalpel. it is much more fragile, but much more sharp for cutting mat/polyps.
but in doing this, i'm left w/ the zoa still in tact w/ 'rubble' and then glue down the rubble. thus no superglue comes in contact w/ the polyps at all.
however, i tell you that to ask you this: utilizing that technique, do you think one would still get the 'explosive frag growth rate' you were talking about? i.e. you are gluing 3 loose polyps down w/ their skin touching the frag plug as much as possible. i'm gluing down 3 'non-loose' polyps in a similar manner.
thoughts?
Snakebyt
New member
i have a couple of single polyps that i want to frag out of the middle of a colony. If i get them off and they survive, i will mount them and try to keep track of there progress
here are the ones i want to frag, they are fire and ice, but the centers are turning bright orange, matching the skirt. the colors are a bit off in this pic, but you get the idea
here are the ones i want to frag, they are fire and ice, but the centers are turning bright orange, matching the skirt. the colors are a bit off in this pic, but you get the idea
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CoralNutz
In Memoriam
Great point Who Dah.... When I frag zoas, typically I am taking them off of acrylic or tile.
When fragging polyps off of live rock, It is very important that you at least try to shave some of the rock with it like WhoDah suggests.
I have been working on a new method the past few months making very thin discs with plumbers putty. That way you can easly cut through the polyps and through the hardened putty like hot butter. That way you can glue the new frags down and not have any glue touching the actual polyp. I have been experimenting with using just plain plumbers putty discs as well as discs that I have been "coating" with aragonite. After using the acrylic and tile for a long time. I am starting to believe, and in the process of trying to confirm, that zoas actually grow faster when they are in direct contact with aragonice, coral skelotans or other calcium based material. We will see how that works.
As far as the "explosive frag growth rate". It is key that you realize this is relative. If you slow growing zoas, they are going to grow slow, that's all there is too it. However regardless of how fast they grow IME the method that I am talking about works the same.
The statement about being in 4 different peoples tanks and different zoas and different parameters and such, is missing my point all together. It's all relative. We are talking about the same zoas, same tank, same parameters, same flow.... What way are those particular zoas going to grow the fastest.
So, to answer your last question, yes, it wouldn't matter if you are gluing down loose polyps vs. a few polyps that have a thin layer of rock below it. However, it is VERY important that that it's a think layer and not like a marble size chunk. You have to consider that the polyps are going to grow quicker if they can just grow outward attatching to the plug vs. having to first grow the mat down to the plug before it starts to attach.
I am going to hold off on any more explinations or discriptions until I get at least some pictures. I feel like I am not explaining this good enough to understand easily.
-Jeremy
When fragging polyps off of live rock, It is very important that you at least try to shave some of the rock with it like WhoDah suggests.
I have been working on a new method the past few months making very thin discs with plumbers putty. That way you can easly cut through the polyps and through the hardened putty like hot butter. That way you can glue the new frags down and not have any glue touching the actual polyp. I have been experimenting with using just plain plumbers putty discs as well as discs that I have been "coating" with aragonite. After using the acrylic and tile for a long time. I am starting to believe, and in the process of trying to confirm, that zoas actually grow faster when they are in direct contact with aragonice, coral skelotans or other calcium based material. We will see how that works.
As far as the "explosive frag growth rate". It is key that you realize this is relative. If you slow growing zoas, they are going to grow slow, that's all there is too it. However regardless of how fast they grow IME the method that I am talking about works the same.
The statement about being in 4 different peoples tanks and different zoas and different parameters and such, is missing my point all together. It's all relative. We are talking about the same zoas, same tank, same parameters, same flow.... What way are those particular zoas going to grow the fastest.
So, to answer your last question, yes, it wouldn't matter if you are gluing down loose polyps vs. a few polyps that have a thin layer of rock below it. However, it is VERY important that that it's a think layer and not like a marble size chunk. You have to consider that the polyps are going to grow quicker if they can just grow outward attatching to the plug vs. having to first grow the mat down to the plug before it starts to attach.
I am going to hold off on any more explinations or discriptions until I get at least some pictures. I feel like I am not explaining this good enough to understand easily.
-Jeremy
Mrdillpickle
New member
Great thread. I am always interested in new techniques.
Here is the technique I use to grow colonies of zoanthids. I cut several polyps, rock and all, out of my colonies. I do this using tile cutters (pliers used for snapping ceramic tiles). I look for high spots on my rock. I can cut right under the polyps and scrape off a layer of rock. I then use super glue gel to glue the frag to a piece of live rock. I glue 3-4 frags (3-10 polyps each) to the rock, spaced out evenly. The frags then fill in the spaces.
Grow Pattern
I found this much quicker to grow a new colony, then waiting for a single frag to grow from the middle out. In a four month period I grew 12 new 50-100 polyp colonies from frags taken off my two mother colonies. The mother colonies had about 300 polyps each and I randomly removed about half the polyps off each parent. I not only grew the new children colonies, but the parents fully filled back in. The only draw back is, every time I do this, the parent colonies get slightly smaller (do to the removal of the rock). Knowing this, I am also growing out a new, much larger, mother colony. I got mint zoa's growing out of my .....
New Colony
Jason
Here is the technique I use to grow colonies of zoanthids. I cut several polyps, rock and all, out of my colonies. I do this using tile cutters (pliers used for snapping ceramic tiles). I look for high spots on my rock. I can cut right under the polyps and scrape off a layer of rock. I then use super glue gel to glue the frag to a piece of live rock. I glue 3-4 frags (3-10 polyps each) to the rock, spaced out evenly. The frags then fill in the spaces.
Grow Pattern
I found this much quicker to grow a new colony, then waiting for a single frag to grow from the middle out. In a four month period I grew 12 new 50-100 polyp colonies from frags taken off my two mother colonies. The mother colonies had about 300 polyps each and I randomly removed about half the polyps off each parent. I not only grew the new children colonies, but the parents fully filled back in. The only draw back is, every time I do this, the parent colonies get slightly smaller (do to the removal of the rock). Knowing this, I am also growing out a new, much larger, mother colony. I got mint zoa's growing out of my .....
New Colony
Jason
Last edited:
tekknoschtev
New member
Wow. Such great information being thrown around here. I hope that I can add to it as well as others.
First, answering the questions:
2: It it true that placing them high up nearning the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?
Our zoanthids seem to grow faster under the MH lighting in our 150, than under PC in our 40gal tank. Thats not to say the growth rate is poor in the frag tank, just not the same as the 150. Can I prove that lighting alone is the difference? No. We have better flow, skimming, fuge, pretty much everything on the 150. I've also grown zoas under NO flourescents just to see if I could, and their growth was terrible, however, not non-existent. Over the course of about 2 months, there were a few new polyps spreading out here and there. Color sucked but there was growth.
3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?
As with whats been stated before, its possible. I find that in the 150, which gets fed (fish) more often than the frag tank (corals only) that the zoanthids grow much faster. Again, this is far from a scientific conclusion.
4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte?
I currently dont have enough larger colonies to see whether or not, but read below on my "time" factor ideas. I do however, see logic, and some what in practice that multiple little frags produce an overall larger colony faster, however, I dont have per-polyp rates to justify my opinion - just logic. Somewhat the same theory as tinier bubbles in a skimmer have more surface area. In this case, there is a greater perimeter for the zoas to grow out on each side, rather than merely on the edge of a colony.
5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?
I find that having exactly the most flow you can possibly have over a particular colony of zoanthids without having them react (ie. close up) produces the highest growth rates. Perhaps its because it keeps nuisance creatures (hermits) from wandering over them, or it prevents detrius from settling, or it just keeps the energy flowing in them and helps them spread. It also may be a fight or flight response, and the high flow is causing them to "move on" but in the process they leave behind the predecesors. I havent taken my zoanthids to the psychiatrist, so who knows. We have a colony of zoanthids that absolutely loves the output of our Seio 2600. It sits about 18" from the output of a Seio 2600 (which despire the "dispersed flow" still has a powerful punch at that distance, hell, it has enough force to ricochet off the opposite side of the 150, which is 6' long, and noticeably have some bounce back.) and they are spreading pretty quickly. I have also noticed that the polyp size itself has increased with the added flow. It may or may not be related.
6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..
Heres my "time" factor theory. As mentioned above, I believe that moving a frag/colony of zoanthids elicits a "reset" function of sorts. I've noticed the best growth rates on my zoanthids after leaving them alone for extended periods of time. Damn, its a good thing I was at college during the semester, because I like messing with things in the tank. At any rate - this would seem to contradict with the fragging to produce a "colony" faster. I find, however, that if I frag a colony of zoanthids, it seems to start popping off new polyps much faster than the frag (which undoubetedly endured more stress during the fragging process). I've used several different fragging techniques as well, and noticed this during all of them. One technique is to scrape at the rock a bit to get the polyps loose. This seems the least stressful on the zoas IF you can get into the rock. Often times, I end up tearing at the base of the zoas - not good. I've also used the technique where a colony overgrows onto rubble (or a frag plug in my case, intentionally placed near the colony), and just busting the rock apart (which is my least favorite method).
An experience: Zoanthid: Wildfire zoas
This was the first colony/frag I actually, purposely, counted the number of polyps and kept a mental and written note as to the growth rate. I purchased a bunch of 2 and 3 polyp frags of these zoas. I placed 11 polyps (three 3 polyp frags, and one 2 polyp frag) onto a single frag plug. Inside of a month, that 11 polyps had nearly doubled into 20 polyps. Now, about 3 months later, I have taken two frags of it, each with about 10-15 polyps each (probably 2/3 of the polyps of each frag are little buds around one or two larger polyps) and the colony is now well over 50 polyps. I use generalities, because I dont have the time or patience to count each individual polyp. But this colony has seemed to follow the time factor theory, as I didnt mess with it after it was glued down until recently when I pulled the frags off. I also had a single polyp frag of these zoas on a frag plug and now - about 4 months later - there are at least 10 polyps. I wish I had monitored it closer, however being away from the tanks makes it difficult.
Note: not all of my zoas grow that fast. I have a few zoas that prefer to pop off only a few babies from time to time.
For what its worth - I dont regularly monitor anything beyond nitrates, pH, and SG. Our water changes have been less than regular on both the 150 and the 40. But whenever I'm home I try to get a decent water change in on the tanks.
First, answering the questions:
2: It it true that placing them high up nearning the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?
Our zoanthids seem to grow faster under the MH lighting in our 150, than under PC in our 40gal tank. Thats not to say the growth rate is poor in the frag tank, just not the same as the 150. Can I prove that lighting alone is the difference? No. We have better flow, skimming, fuge, pretty much everything on the 150. I've also grown zoas under NO flourescents just to see if I could, and their growth was terrible, however, not non-existent. Over the course of about 2 months, there were a few new polyps spreading out here and there. Color sucked but there was growth.
3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?
As with whats been stated before, its possible. I find that in the 150, which gets fed (fish) more often than the frag tank (corals only) that the zoanthids grow much faster. Again, this is far from a scientific conclusion.
4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte?
I currently dont have enough larger colonies to see whether or not, but read below on my "time" factor ideas. I do however, see logic, and some what in practice that multiple little frags produce an overall larger colony faster, however, I dont have per-polyp rates to justify my opinion - just logic. Somewhat the same theory as tinier bubbles in a skimmer have more surface area. In this case, there is a greater perimeter for the zoas to grow out on each side, rather than merely on the edge of a colony.
5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?
I find that having exactly the most flow you can possibly have over a particular colony of zoanthids without having them react (ie. close up) produces the highest growth rates. Perhaps its because it keeps nuisance creatures (hermits) from wandering over them, or it prevents detrius from settling, or it just keeps the energy flowing in them and helps them spread. It also may be a fight or flight response, and the high flow is causing them to "move on" but in the process they leave behind the predecesors. I havent taken my zoanthids to the psychiatrist, so who knows. We have a colony of zoanthids that absolutely loves the output of our Seio 2600. It sits about 18" from the output of a Seio 2600 (which despire the "dispersed flow" still has a powerful punch at that distance, hell, it has enough force to ricochet off the opposite side of the 150, which is 6' long, and noticeably have some bounce back.) and they are spreading pretty quickly. I have also noticed that the polyp size itself has increased with the added flow. It may or may not be related.
6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..
Heres my "time" factor theory. As mentioned above, I believe that moving a frag/colony of zoanthids elicits a "reset" function of sorts. I've noticed the best growth rates on my zoanthids after leaving them alone for extended periods of time. Damn, its a good thing I was at college during the semester, because I like messing with things in the tank. At any rate - this would seem to contradict with the fragging to produce a "colony" faster. I find, however, that if I frag a colony of zoanthids, it seems to start popping off new polyps much faster than the frag (which undoubetedly endured more stress during the fragging process). I've used several different fragging techniques as well, and noticed this during all of them. One technique is to scrape at the rock a bit to get the polyps loose. This seems the least stressful on the zoas IF you can get into the rock. Often times, I end up tearing at the base of the zoas - not good. I've also used the technique where a colony overgrows onto rubble (or a frag plug in my case, intentionally placed near the colony), and just busting the rock apart (which is my least favorite method).
An experience: Zoanthid: Wildfire zoas
This was the first colony/frag I actually, purposely, counted the number of polyps and kept a mental and written note as to the growth rate. I purchased a bunch of 2 and 3 polyp frags of these zoas. I placed 11 polyps (three 3 polyp frags, and one 2 polyp frag) onto a single frag plug. Inside of a month, that 11 polyps had nearly doubled into 20 polyps. Now, about 3 months later, I have taken two frags of it, each with about 10-15 polyps each (probably 2/3 of the polyps of each frag are little buds around one or two larger polyps) and the colony is now well over 50 polyps. I use generalities, because I dont have the time or patience to count each individual polyp. But this colony has seemed to follow the time factor theory, as I didnt mess with it after it was glued down until recently when I pulled the frags off. I also had a single polyp frag of these zoas on a frag plug and now - about 4 months later - there are at least 10 polyps. I wish I had monitored it closer, however being away from the tanks makes it difficult.
Note: not all of my zoas grow that fast. I have a few zoas that prefer to pop off only a few babies from time to time.
For what its worth - I dont regularly monitor anything beyond nitrates, pH, and SG. Our water changes have been less than regular on both the 150 and the 40. But whenever I'm home I try to get a decent water change in on the tanks.
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