giantbicycle
New member
This is a very resourceful information...Thanks so much for sharing... agree, but wont it be a different case in a heavily fed tank with clear water powered by OZone?
Serious Disscussion of Zoanthids Growth
- Thread starter giantbicycle
- Start date
This is a very resourceful information...Thanks so much for sharing... agree, but wont it be a different case in a heavily fed tank with clear water powered by OZone?
A.G
New member
IME, zonthids and mushrooms grow super fast/big when you have some nutrients in the water(like No3).
I used to have 2 tanks one with a skimmer and the other has no skimmer, both were the same size with the same light which consist of 150 10k MH. The zoos and mushrooms grew super fast from few pieces to a full rock coverd with zoos and I have noticed that thier size doubled. The Zoos in the other tank with the skimmer grew but nothing compared to the skimmerless tank.
This observation was seen in lots of tanks and not only mine.Also, the skimmerless tank could not support any sps life in it.
Anyway that was based on my observations. Others may have different results.
A.G
I used to have 2 tanks one with a skimmer and the other has no skimmer, both were the same size with the same light which consist of 150 10k MH. The zoos and mushrooms grew super fast from few pieces to a full rock coverd with zoos and I have noticed that thier size doubled. The Zoos in the other tank with the skimmer grew but nothing compared to the skimmerless tank.
This observation was seen in lots of tanks and not only mine.Also, the skimmerless tank could not support any sps life in it.
Anyway that was based on my observations. Others may have different results.
A.G
giantbicycle
New member
Thanks for that.....
I agree that they need nutrient ladden water but i disagree at this point as there are lots of ppl who are full fledge sps keepers keeping and growing them and some even complain that they are growing at a high speed as such as a weed..
so there are some other factors affecting it..and of cous, individual pieces have diff growth rate
Cheers
I agree that they need nutrient ladden water but i disagree at this point as there are lots of ppl who are full fledge sps keepers keeping and growing them and some even complain that they are growing at a high speed as such as a weed..
so there are some other factors affecting it..and of cous, individual pieces have diff growth rate
Cheers
gflat65
New member
Okay. I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread (should have started reading it when it started...), but here is what I have observed in specific instances.
Most of the zoas I've had have required an acclimation period before I see much growth. A few have doubled in size in a matter of weeks after being introduced, but those seem to be in the minority. Once they start to grow, they take off (talking mostly about zoanthus sp.). Escape size is something that I've read up on in terms of sps, but I think it can used in zoa discussions, too. Essentially, (sps) frags tned to grow at higher rates than the mother colony (due mainly to the needs of a large colony compared to the needs of a smaller frag). Survival says to grow when they are smaller as self preservation.
I want to share something I've observed over the last month and find interesting. I traded for a four polyp frag (I misstated this in the other thread on PPE-I had four polyps not three...) about four months ago. On Jan 7th, I cut one polyp off to trade for a zoa frag. When I pulled the four polyp frag, I looked it over pretty good and didn't see any extra polyps growing. two weeks after cutting the single polyp, I had three new polyps pop up. It is possible that I might have overlooked one of the extra polyps when I cut the frag, but highly unlikely that I would have missed all three. It did nothing for four months, then seemingly immediately after cutting the single polyp off, it doubled in size (three polyps to six). I'm going to keep watching it and see what it does. I have another single polyp trade set up for latter this month, so I am going to document again how many there are when I cut it and then check back in a few weeks to see if the numbers have multiplied. If it keeps increasing at even a similar rate, I may have a bunch of single polyp frags floating around. If it happens a third time with no other changes, I'm going to call it a working theory.
Whodah-hadn't heard the words differential equation in years. Bad memories.
Most of the zoas I've had have required an acclimation period before I see much growth. A few have doubled in size in a matter of weeks after being introduced, but those seem to be in the minority. Once they start to grow, they take off (talking mostly about zoanthus sp.). Escape size is something that I've read up on in terms of sps, but I think it can used in zoa discussions, too. Essentially, (sps) frags tned to grow at higher rates than the mother colony (due mainly to the needs of a large colony compared to the needs of a smaller frag). Survival says to grow when they are smaller as self preservation.
I want to share something I've observed over the last month and find interesting. I traded for a four polyp frag (I misstated this in the other thread on PPE-I had four polyps not three...) about four months ago. On Jan 7th, I cut one polyp off to trade for a zoa frag. When I pulled the four polyp frag, I looked it over pretty good and didn't see any extra polyps growing. two weeks after cutting the single polyp, I had three new polyps pop up. It is possible that I might have overlooked one of the extra polyps when I cut the frag, but highly unlikely that I would have missed all three. It did nothing for four months, then seemingly immediately after cutting the single polyp off, it doubled in size (three polyps to six). I'm going to keep watching it and see what it does. I have another single polyp trade set up for latter this month, so I am going to document again how many there are when I cut it and then check back in a few weeks to see if the numbers have multiplied. If it keeps increasing at even a similar rate, I may have a bunch of single polyp frags floating around
. If it happens a third time with no other changes, I'm going to call it a working theory.Whodah-hadn't heard the words differential equation in years. Bad memories
.
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
Great observation gflat.
Our corals are very similar to plants when it comes to growth.
When you prune a tree, it promotes growth. Corals seem to react in the same manner, but not always. Sometimes cut corals can get in infection and die.
I have a frag of Eagle Eyes that grows like a weed. I also frag them every other month.
Great thread!
Had to throw in some eye candy... These grow so darn well when I make frags!
Our corals are very similar to plants when it comes to growth.
When you prune a tree, it promotes growth. Corals seem to react in the same manner, but not always. Sometimes cut corals can get in infection and die.
I have a frag of Eagle Eyes that grows like a weed. I also frag them every other month.
Great thread!
Had to throw in some eye candy... These grow so darn well when I make frags!
I'm certainly no expert but I can give you my observations from the standpoint of growth in the main tank (no fragging). First I'm a firm believer in the place it and leave it alone theory having lost some prized frags by fiddling with them to much. High nutrients in the water which can be obtain by feeding or general maintance ie stirring things up a little -blowing debris from the the rocks and such. I have seen both work in my tank. I've also notice that when i switch to MH's over PC's i got better growth and colors. I also notice that adding calcium once a week with top off has promoted growth. These are the only changes that I've made to my system over the past 2 years that have had an impact that I've notice to help with growth. As I said before I'm no expert by any means but this is what works in my tank- I also beleive that everyones systems are totally different and what works for me may not necessarily work for others.
~Dee~
~Dee~
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
Coralnutz, they're yours.
We still on for a trade when the weather gets warmer?
How about this, I'll frag them now and whatever grows from it is yours, ok? Plus I'll be sure to take even more pic of the colony over time.
We still on for a trade when the weather gets warmer?
How about this, I'll frag them now and whatever grows from it is yours, ok? Plus I'll be sure to take even more pic of the colony over time.
giantbicycle
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6697590#post6697590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
Okay. I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread (should have started reading it when it started...), but here is what I have observed in specific instances.
Most of the zoas I've had have required an acclimation period before I see much growth. A few have doubled in size in a matter of weeks after being introduced, but those seem to be in the minority. Once they start to grow, they take off (talking mostly about zoanthus sp.). Escape size is something that I've read up on in terms of sps, but I think it can used in zoa discussions, too. Essentially, (sps) frags tned to grow at higher rates than the mother colony (due mainly to the needs of a large colony compared to the needs of a smaller frag). Survival says to grow when they are smaller as self preservation.
I want to share something I've observed over the last month and find interesting. I traded for a four polyp frag (I misstated this in the other thread on PPE-I had four polyps not three...) about four months ago. On Jan 7th, I cut one polyp off to trade for a zoa frag. When I pulled the four polyp frag, I looked it over pretty good and didn't see any extra polyps growing. two weeks after cutting the single polyp, I had three new polyps pop up. It is possible that I might have overlooked one of the extra polyps when I cut the frag, but highly unlikely that I would have missed all three. It did nothing for four months, then seemingly immediately after cutting the single polyp off, it doubled in size (three polyps to six). I'm going to keep watching it and see what it does. I have another single polyp trade set up for latter this month, so I am going to document again how many there are when I cut it and then check back in a few weeks to see if the numbers have multiplied. If it keeps increasing at even a similar rate, I may have a bunch of single polyp frags floating around
Whodah-hadn't heard the words differential equation in years. Bad memories
Sweet....>Get back to us with your further Findings....It will be interesting..
Thanks gflat
giantbicycle
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6704802#post6704802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
Ok, time for some seriously scientific reasearch Bill.... Just frag that rock right along this line, then I'll pm you my address. And we'll see how they gow in my tanks for a while, then I'll report back after a couple months. :lol:
CoralNutz.....I will too be waiting for your great findings in no time...Do update us..Thanks and thats an AWesome Piece..
giantbicycle
New member
Thanks Guys for all the well Observations made...Keep the research coming in and we will soon find a theroy which is Proven ....
I would be doing mine as soon as my new Tank is up..
Great job....
I would be doing mine as soon as my new Tank is up..
Great job....
Well I will firstly admit I haven't yet read this whole thread, I know shame shame... anyway I felt like I had to throw in my 2 cents (and sorry if anything I mention was already stated).
I feel much of this (these) questions are far to variable and I dont really see the chance of anything concrete coming out of this, BUT there is more than enough general information to make a good run for it, so here is mine...
I think there are many underlying ideas that are overlooked or misunderstood and those just add to the confusion. Like coloration for example. While it is an OK general indication of how happy and healthy something is in that environment, first priority of living things is to ensure that the individual and the species as a whole continues on. If a polyp could think, then it would chose to live, thrive, and reproduce over having the brightest colors possible. For the sake of growth rates I dont think color really has any place in this discussion because the two are seperate issues entirely (that doesn't mean I think we should refrain from talking about coloration, just that it plays a very minor/if any part in the growth of our colonies. Also all photosynthetic corals have symbiotic dynoflagellates called zooxanthellae that use light energy and convert it to chemical energy that the coral can use. There is not one type of zooxanthellae but many different species (and many many more subspecies) and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. These dynoflaggellates can be free swimming and coral can take these from the water and incorperate them into their own tissue where the zooxanthellae go to work making energy for the corals. When we see a coral bleach it has expelled the zooxanthellae from its tissue in hopes of gaining a new better suited type to replace the old. Now what this should tell us is that different colonies of zoanthus could have many different types of zoanthellae being used and thus would have different rates of growth and prefer different temps, lights, etc... Even people with the same exact "kind" of zoanthids (say Dragon Eyes) could have different zooxanthellae inside and see very different results in the same environments... I dont see there being any set way(s) of always increasing growth rates until we can better understand how exactly the polyps feed and the pros/cons of the different zooxanthellae available and how to improve conditions based on that information.
Now at the heart of this question (improved growth) there is one main universal idea to consider. The vast majority of living things have a list of "priorities" so to speak when deciding on what to expend energy on. Firstly and most importantly would be the survival of the individual (excluding a few instances when an animal neglects its own well being for the sake of its offspring, or an animal that uses the last of its energy to make one large spawning event, but these are more the exception and neither apply to this situation). If the animal is barely hanging on to life it doesn't make much sense to expend critical energy on being more colorful or growing larger for example when the polyp would just end up dying. Staying alive it top of the list and obviously there needs to be enough energy to sustain life before we can talk about growth. When the individual is healthy and thriving, then it moves on to maturing/healing... If there is damage somewhere (non life threatening) then the polyp will expend energy on repairing itself next. Finally when the individual is strong, healthy, mature, and in good condition, then it next looks to reproduction (either sexual or asexual). Following these general ideas the way to get the best growth would be having healthy thriving colonies and enough "extra" energy available to promote reproduction. The first part would require good tank conditions and nothing really bothering or injuring the zoanthids. Secondly you need as much food as possible for them (any animal really if you want good reproduction rates). Until we know how exactly the polyps feed and what they need in the way of nutrition, the best conditions for the zooxantellae, etc... I dont think we will see many concrete answers.
Much of my rambling is general biology and not specific just to zoanthus or even marine animals for that matter. We buy and trade for these animals because they interest us or they are colorful and pretty, but these animals exist because they are good at surviving and they are very good at it. To find your answers it is usually best to "think" like the animal, not like the guardian. If you want the best growth rates then either try as much as you can to see what works for YOUR tank or do the experiments and research to actually be able to answer these questions. We need alot more people experimenting and trying new things so we can actually have something concrete to offer instead of suggestions and "this is what worked for me".
Also a last little note is that if you want maximum growth rates then you need to take outter surface area into consideration. The more surface area that is able to "grow" then the more opportunity for additional polyps to be added. Here is a example to explain what I mean. If you have two identical colonies of zoanthids that are 2 inces by 2 inches square (same number of polyps). One of those you leave as a 2" x 2" square (colony A) and the other you divide up into 4 equal 1 x 1 inch squares (colonies B). Colony A has 8" of total outside growing room to expand and grow, but Colonies B has a total of 16" of outside growing room because there is alot less of the colony being "landlocked" and thus unable to really bud into new polyps. Now this does not take into consideration that Colonies B will need some time to heal and recover, but much of the time IME the increased growth area will allow better growth in the long run despite the relatively short delay for healing and recovery.
Thanks for reading my rambling, good luck to all of you in all you do, and hopefully many of us can get some new ideas and see some better growth in the future.
Rick
I feel much of this (these) questions are far to variable and I dont really see the chance of anything concrete coming out of this, BUT there is more than enough general information to make a good run for it, so here is mine...
I think there are many underlying ideas that are overlooked or misunderstood and those just add to the confusion. Like coloration for example. While it is an OK general indication of how happy and healthy something is in that environment, first priority of living things is to ensure that the individual and the species as a whole continues on. If a polyp could think, then it would chose to live, thrive, and reproduce over having the brightest colors possible. For the sake of growth rates I dont think color really has any place in this discussion because the two are seperate issues entirely (that doesn't mean I think we should refrain from talking about coloration, just that it plays a very minor/if any part in the growth of our colonies. Also all photosynthetic corals have symbiotic dynoflagellates called zooxanthellae that use light energy and convert it to chemical energy that the coral can use. There is not one type of zooxanthellae but many different species (and many many more subspecies) and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. These dynoflaggellates can be free swimming and coral can take these from the water and incorperate them into their own tissue where the zooxanthellae go to work making energy for the corals. When we see a coral bleach it has expelled the zooxanthellae from its tissue in hopes of gaining a new better suited type to replace the old. Now what this should tell us is that different colonies of zoanthus could have many different types of zoanthellae being used and thus would have different rates of growth and prefer different temps, lights, etc... Even people with the same exact "kind" of zoanthids (say Dragon Eyes) could have different zooxanthellae inside and see very different results in the same environments... I dont see there being any set way(s) of always increasing growth rates until we can better understand how exactly the polyps feed and the pros/cons of the different zooxanthellae available and how to improve conditions based on that information.
Now at the heart of this question (improved growth) there is one main universal idea to consider. The vast majority of living things have a list of "priorities" so to speak when deciding on what to expend energy on. Firstly and most importantly would be the survival of the individual (excluding a few instances when an animal neglects its own well being for the sake of its offspring, or an animal that uses the last of its energy to make one large spawning event, but these are more the exception and neither apply to this situation). If the animal is barely hanging on to life it doesn't make much sense to expend critical energy on being more colorful or growing larger for example when the polyp would just end up dying. Staying alive it top of the list and obviously there needs to be enough energy to sustain life before we can talk about growth. When the individual is healthy and thriving, then it moves on to maturing/healing... If there is damage somewhere (non life threatening) then the polyp will expend energy on repairing itself next. Finally when the individual is strong, healthy, mature, and in good condition, then it next looks to reproduction (either sexual or asexual). Following these general ideas the way to get the best growth would be having healthy thriving colonies and enough "extra" energy available to promote reproduction. The first part would require good tank conditions and nothing really bothering or injuring the zoanthids. Secondly you need as much food as possible for them (any animal really if you want good reproduction rates). Until we know how exactly the polyps feed and what they need in the way of nutrition, the best conditions for the zooxantellae, etc... I dont think we will see many concrete answers.
Much of my rambling is general biology and not specific just to zoanthus or even marine animals for that matter. We buy and trade for these animals because they interest us or they are colorful and pretty, but these animals exist because they are good at surviving and they are very good at it. To find your answers it is usually best to "think" like the animal, not like the guardian. If you want the best growth rates then either try as much as you can to see what works for YOUR tank or do the experiments and research to actually be able to answer these questions. We need alot more people experimenting and trying new things so we can actually have something concrete to offer instead of suggestions and "this is what worked for me".
Also a last little note is that if you want maximum growth rates then you need to take outter surface area into consideration. The more surface area that is able to "grow" then the more opportunity for additional polyps to be added. Here is a example to explain what I mean. If you have two identical colonies of zoanthids that are 2 inces by 2 inches square (same number of polyps). One of those you leave as a 2" x 2" square (colony A) and the other you divide up into 4 equal 1 x 1 inch squares (colonies B). Colony A has 8" of total outside growing room to expand and grow, but Colonies B has a total of 16" of outside growing room because there is alot less of the colony being "landlocked" and thus unable to really bud into new polyps. Now this does not take into consideration that Colonies B will need some time to heal and recover, but much of the time IME the increased growth area will allow better growth in the long run despite the relatively short delay for healing and recovery.
Thanks for reading my rambling, good luck to all of you in all you do, and hopefully many of us can get some new ideas and see some better growth in the future.
Rick
giantbicycle
New member
Well said Rick
Thanks for the 2 cents
Thanks for the 2 cents
giantbicycle
New member
Its been 2months already since the start of the Research.Is there any new findings we can conclude from it? :rollface:
ficklefins
New member
I second the request for updates!
ScotchMaster
In Memoriam
Wow! Awesome thread! I think Im going to start doing some research on this....Time to get the fragging started
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