Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

One of the biggest arguments I ever had on a jobsite was becuase some of the guys I worked with didn't know (and refused to learn) the Pi x R squared trick! Spent 2 hours and nearly a fist fight trying to explain why (2) 1" hoses were not giving my drill enough air, compared to a single 2" bull hose.

nitwit: "1+1 = 2, its that simple, two 1" hoses are the same as a 2" hose, 1+1 = 2... all your fancy math don't mean nuthin, we aint gonna fall for your tricks."

 

[ToLearn]

^ lol ^

Don't always have the sharpest individuals on a job site.

What could four 1" bulk heads handle flow wise? Right now I have one of them run with 1.5" siphon drain above(in a 37" tall corner overflow box) all the way to a submerged sump ~36" horizontally away and ~12" lower then the bottom of the tank. And two of the 1" bulk heads have 1.5" line ran together(T) to the sump with durso and emergency. The fourth bulk head is capped currently until I can run a third line.

 

[uncleof6]

Sky,



You may be able to find a bulkhead threaded on the nut side and slip on the flange side. I have a few but have no idea where I got them.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/1-abs-bulkhead-slip-x-thread-slip-on-the-flange-head-side.html

 

[uncleof6]

One of the biggest arguments I ever had on a jobsite was becuase some of the guys I worked with didn't know (and refused to learn) the Pi x R squared trick! Spent 2 hours and nearly a fist fight trying to explain why (2) 1" hoses were not giving my drill enough air, compared to a single 2" bull hose.

nitwit: "1+1 = 2, its that simple, two 1" hoses are the same as a 2" hose, 1+1 = 2... all your fancy math don't mean nuthin, we aint gonna fall for your tricks."

Yeah, but they didn't believe you cause you did not do this:

πR²

 

[golf nut]

Hiya Paul

Any progress on my jet turbine powered backpack?

I have the takeoff and flight figured, but now I have time on my hands I am going to give some thought to the landings.

 

[uncleof6]

The takeoff is optional, it is unfortunate that the landing is mandatory......

 

[BeanAnimal]

Not to fully hijack my own thread but...

Many years ago (maybe 1987) on a windy day, I tossed a 4'x8' sheet of plywood off of the deck of "Field Ramp", the half pipe that was being built to replace the smaller and more dangerous "Dead Fly ramp".
The ramp's deck stood maybe 14' from the field below and when I tossed the sheet of wood it almost floated to the ground due to the large surface area and somewhat steady wind. As the plywood neared the ground, the air trapped under it wooshed out pushing the waist high field grass outward in all directions in one big puff. The landing was perfect and soft.

Before I could say "Dave, you are going to kill your self..." my friend Dave picked up another 4'x8' sheet of plywood and hoisted it up in front of his body. Without hesitation Dave, plywood blocking his view, sprinted toward the edge of the deck and bounded into the wind with the plywood held tight to his chest. For a brief, awe inspriing second Dave and his makeshift sail caught the wind. In one of those "time standing still moments" that only lasts a microsecond we all instantly knew what Dave's spontaneous but poorly thought out plan was. It was clear that Dave had observed the soft landing of the plywood sheet and was attempting to harness the same wind and ride his own sheet softly to the ground.

In the next microsecond, physics trumped the will of our test pilot as wind and gravity took their natural course. As the wind caught the sheet it (in an instant) listed to the side, allowing gravity and inertia finish the job of turning the sheet and Dave over. Instead of a gently descending sail riding on a cushion of air, Dave and his craft abruplty took on the physics displayed in any episode of The Road Runner.

The thud of Dave's back against the ground was followed almost instantly by a weeze of air forcefully pushed from Dave's lungs and a woosh of grass mixed with the creek of plywood flexing due to the abrupt stop as it slammed into Dave's body that just slammed into the ground.

Dave had the wind knocked out of him, so we are not sure if he moaned in pain, nor would we have heard him over the 5 minutes laughing fit that almost killed us all.

Takeoff is optional, but landing is mandatory.

 

[SkyReef]

You need to find the area of the openings, you would need four 1/2 pipes to handle the volume of water going through a 1 inch pipe.

do the Pi x R squared trick.

Hi, Golf: of course, the old pi x r2 trick. Thanks for the math refresher!

 

[SkyReef]

Sky,

The design is a functional model. the actual details of the parts used matter little (within reason). I suggested threaded bulkheads so that you could play around with diffferent sized standpipes. A threaded bulkhead by be slightly more restrictive due to the slightly smaller ID of threaded fittings, but otherwise functuon the same.

You may be able to find a bulkhead threaded on the nut side and slip on the flange side. I have a few but have no idea where I got them.

Threading a street-ell onto the inside is certainly possible, but you will have to ensure proper clearance.

Thanks, Bean. I'll try out the 1-inch system, maybe going to 1.25-inch sanitary tee.

 

[JTL]

After thinking for a while that I had solved my problem of the full siphon not starting I now realize it is still a problem. I have 1 1/4 pipes running from the overflow and 1" for the returns. This is not a very high flow system since I am using a Eheim 1262 return pump and considering the head pressure I am only circulating about 800 gph. I have to turn down the flow on the full siphon return quite a bit by using a gate valve. After a pump shut down the open channel fires right up but the full siphon never get a chance. The only way I can get it started is to put my hand over the end of the pipe in the sump and let it fill with water. The end of the pipe is about 1" under the operating depth of the sump. I tried drilling a hole in the pipe a little above the water line but that did not work. The open channel and the siphon pick up tubes are at the same water depth in the over flow and there is nothing short of tearing the tank apart that I can do to change that configuration. The safety drain is higher than the highest part of the siphon and the open channel. I have checked many times for air leaks and I don't think I have any. I believe they would only come into play if they were above the water line of the siphon. I have so much stuff including two return lines in the overflow box is it a wonder that is holds any water. I can barely get my fingers in between the pipes. Another thing, it sometimes helps if I open the gate valve all the way when it is trying to establish a siphon but then I have to reset it to get the correct water level in the overflow box. Any idea how to fix this problem

 

[borderreef]

BeanAnimal, Uncleof6, Teesquare, you all have to be the most patient people I have ever met. Over the past couple of days I have read (almost) this entire thread. Almost every question imaginable has been asked and answered, and asked again (and again, and again). If I was not clear on a specific point, I needed only to continue on with my reading to find clearification. Kudos to all who have contributed. I just aquired a used 135g tank for free. That's right, free. Once it is cleaned up, I'm going to use the Bean System to spec, no modifications, no reinventing the horse. However, this aquisition was not planned or budgeted for, so an upgrade from the mag 9 return on my 45g reef will have to wait. Do you think this pump will supply sufficient flow at about 3.5' to keep the 1.5" plumbing flowing quietly?

 

[uncleof6]

Yes. Thanks for providing the opportunity for a one word answer.

 

[JTL]

After thinking for a while that I had solved my problem of the full siphon not starting I now realize it is still a problem. I have 1 1/4 pipes running from the overflow and 1" for the returns. This is not a very high flow system since I am using a Eheim 1262 return pump and considering the head pressure I am only circulating about 800 gph. I have to turn down the flow on the full siphon return quite a bit by using a gate valve. After a pump shut down the open channel fires right up but the full siphon never get a chance. The only way I can get it started is to put my hand over the end of the pipe in the sump and let it fill with water. The end of the pipe is about 1" under the operating depth of the sump. I tried drilling a hole in the pipe a little above the water line but that did not work. The open channel and the siphon pick up tubes are at the same water depth in the over flow and there is nothing short of tearing the tank apart that I can do to change that configuration. The safety drain is higher than the highest part of the siphon and the open channel. I have checked many times for air leaks and I don't think I have any. I believe they would only come into play if they were above the water line of the siphon. I have so much stuff including two return lines in the overflow box is it a wonder that is holds any water. I can barely get my fingers in between the pipes. Another thing, it sometimes helps if I open the gate valve all the way when it is trying to establish a siphon but then I have to reset it to get the correct water level in the overflow box. Any idea how to fix this problem

This system obviously works for a lot of people, but I am not one of them.

 

[uncleof6]

JT,

If you don't have bubbles in the line after the siphon does start, there probably is not a leak. How high in the overflow box does the water level in the overflow box have to rise, before the siphon will start? You are not building up enough head pressure to purge the air out of the siphon line. Could still be relative height of the emergency to siphon, or configuration of the siphon drain line trapping an air bubble.

Lessons learned: You gotta have room in these things to work on them. Shoe horned stuff just handicaps you.

 

[JTL]

Jim, I do have bubbles. I guess I thought that was a normal thing with water purging into more water, so much for that. Assuming that I have a leak, can I rule out anything that is covered with water? In the overflow this would then leave the cap, which I have messed with endless times, the seam where the threaded cap fitting goes to a tee and the seam from the tee to the down turned 90. The tee is attached to the bulkhead but that is under water. Now my question is do the fittings AFTER the overflow come into play, starting with the dry end of the bulkhead and working down to the sump? I can probably get some epoxy around all of the fittings.

 

[uncleof6]

Jim, I do have bubbles. I guess I thought that was a normal thing with water purging into more water, so much for that. Assuming that I have a leak, can I rule out anything that is covered with water? In the overflow this would then leave the cap, which I have messed with endless times, the seam where the threaded cap fitting goes to a tee and the seam from the tee to the down turned 90. The tee is attached to the bulkhead but that is under water. Now my question is do the fittings AFTER the overflow come into play, starting with the dry end of the bulkhead and working down to the sump? I can probably get some epoxy around all of the fittings.

Yes you can rule out things that are completely submerged. Epoxy may or may not seal the leaks. Yes all fittings that are exposed to air can be a potential air leak, whether water leaks or not. An air leak can be small enough not to allow water to pass, or just create a venturi. (the venturi affect is most likely) Siphon should be bubble free. If the water level is too low in the overflow, the elbow will suck in air.

Factoid: During normal operation, the water level in the over flow box will be just above the top of the down turned elbow, maybe just below it, but right in that area.

 

[snaza]

Hi,

Got a basic plumbing physics question.

I'm doing bean animal setup and the 3 overflows that go directly down to my sump in my garage (about 10ft)

I was planning all hard PVC but there is a wooden beam in the way. If i want hard PVC is will need to use some 45's to get around it.

I was then looking at using 1 1/2 inch flexible Marine PVC (not spaflex) and barb fittings to connect it. The barbs are 1 1/2 inch fittings but the actual opening is only 1 inch.

Does this mean ALL my overflow plumbing is essentually reduced to 1 inch? Or just at that point?

thanks

Aaron

 

[JTL]

Thanks Jim, I think I can fix it.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi,

Got a basic plumbing physics question.

I'm doing bean animal setup and the 3 overflows that go directly down to my sump in my garage (about 10ft)

I was planning all hard PVC but there is a wooden beam in the way. If i want hard PVC is will need to use some 45's to get around it.

I was then looking at using 1 1/2 inch flexible Marine PVC (not spaflex) and barb fittings to connect it. The barbs are 1 1/2 inch fittings but the actual opening is only 1 inch.

Does this mean ALL my overflow plumbing is essentually reduced to 1 inch? Or just at that point?

thanks

Aaron

It won't essentially reduce the flow to that of 1", however, it will cut you down considerably. Probably make noise (cavitation) etc.


I would imagine a way can be figured out to reduce the # or 45s you would need, but spa flex will probably be the least restrictive. Barb fittings are very restrictive. With the length of the drop, even with hard pipe and 45s, I suspect your flow capability will be higher than what you are going to pump up to the tank.

 

[bad santa]

Jim, I do have bubbles. I guess I thought that was a normal thing with water purging into more water, so much for that. Assuming that I have a leak, can I rule out anything that is covered with water? In the overflow this would then leave the cap, which I have messed with endless times, the seam where the threaded cap fitting goes to a tee and the seam from the tee to the down turned 90. The tee is attached to the bulkhead but that is under water. Now my question is do the fittings AFTER the overflow come into play, starting with the dry end of the bulkhead and working down to the sump? I can probably get some epoxy around all of the fittings.

JTL, I was having issues with the siphon having bubbles come out of it and it took about 2-3 min for the system to equalize but i still had micro bubbles coming out of the siphon pipe. I thought i had everything sealed up so i started taking apart the siphon plumbing with the dry side first and i realizes that the fitting that connects to the threaded bulkhead had water in the threads. I realized that air was probably getting sucked through the threads so i put some teflon paste on the threads and put back the pipes. Now the siphon has NO bubbles and the system equalizes in about 40sec. HTH